Divinity Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 #652746
07/06/19 04:04 PM
07/06/19 04:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Brent2410 Offline OP
stranger
Brent2410  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13

Last edited by vometia; 08/06/19 04:41 AM. Reason: link
Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652748
07/06/19 04:32 PM
07/06/19 04:32 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
kanisatha Offline
journeyman
kanisatha  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
Isn't any poll here going to be automatically heavily biased since this forum is overwhelmingly home to D:OS1/2 fans?

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: kanisatha] #652757
07/06/19 08:07 PM
07/06/19 08:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1
Ellionious Offline
stranger
Ellionious  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1
Doesn't look that way. RT is winning.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652759
07/06/19 08:21 PM
07/06/19 08:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2
Slagathor Offline
stranger
Slagathor  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2
I just like the option to pause the game when I need to re-direct orders (difficult battle).
But I also love it when I can just "let go" and watch my party wreak havoc on their own (easy battle).

"Look at Minsc go...awesome! Yes cleave that ogre in half.
Oh great buffs Jaheira. Edwin magic artillery gooooooo ! fricking rules!
Viconia, perfectly timed heal...bravo!"

etc.

The sitting back and relaxing and enjoying the show is very amusing to me.
The tactical difficult bossfights where you have to pause and think and plan are great too.
I simply love both.

BG2 was perfect in that way imho.
With improved AI this shouldn't be a problem.

p.s.: I also love setting up ai-formations, tactics, ways to react, etc

p.s 2.: hi everyone !

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652762
07/06/19 09:02 PM
07/06/19 09:02 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
kanisatha Offline
journeyman
kanisatha  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
Yeah I agree. That character actions are strictly sequential in TB just really grates on me. I love being able to have two (or more) of the characters move and/or attack simultaneously. I especially love this in boss battles where you can very quickly clear up the boss's minions and then everyone in your party simultaneously swarms/blasts the boss. Very satisfying. smile

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652765
07/06/19 10:29 PM
07/06/19 10:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 5
Kroked Offline
stranger
Kroked  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 5
BG2 was not real time. It was turn based on a clock, and you could set it to pause on every turn. So I can't really check either box.

I would prefer BG2 combat, as opposed to real time. D&D is a game of dice and statistics. When you turn it into a twitch based hack and slash, its not D&D anymore.


@
Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Kroked] #652766
08/06/19 12:44 AM
08/06/19 12:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Brent2410 Offline OP
stranger
Brent2410  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
It's Psudo Turn based, but if you didn't know about the auto pause action in the settings then it played like real time. Even then it felt like real time in 6 second bursts. Personally I prefer the Divinity model, but with an action, bonus action, and movement all being separate. That's how tabletop plays, and I want something as close to actual D&D as possible. It's highly likely we'll get a creation mode, so I look at BG3 and see a nice opportunity to play tabletop with friends who's schedule or location doesn't allow them to meet up in person for an actual session.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652767
08/06/19 02:45 AM
08/06/19 02:45 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
kanisatha Offline
journeyman
kanisatha  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
Well I really hate the D:OS games' TB system so I hope it won't be anything even remotely like that.

Also, this is supposed to be a cRPG, not a tabletop simulator. There already exists a tabletop simulator for D&D.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Kroked] #652768
08/06/19 02:48 AM
08/06/19 02:48 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
kanisatha Offline
journeyman
kanisatha  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
Originally Posted by Kroked
BG2 was not real time. It was turn based on a clock, and you could set it to pause on every turn. So I can't really check either box.

I would prefer BG2 combat, as opposed to real time. D&D is a game of dice and statistics. When you turn it into a twitch based hack and slash, its not D&D anymore.


Yes the BG games were not real time. They were real time with pause. I don't think anyone is looking for this game to be RT. It's about expecting it to be RTwP, just like the first two games in the series.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Ellionious] #652778
08/06/19 02:52 PM
08/06/19 02:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 75
cyseal Offline
journeyman
cyseal  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by Ellionious
Doesn't look that way. RT is winning.


But, this poll doesn't mean anything. Not enough votes.
Only way to get meaningful result is to get all Steam players to vote.
The best is developers make the gameplay what they've imagined.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Ellionious] #652790
09/06/19 11:27 AM
09/06/19 11:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 18
D
Delicieuxz Offline
stranger
Delicieuxz  Offline
stranger
D

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by Ellionious
Doesn't look that way. RT is winning.


Even still, the support for TB combat is going to be over-inflated because Larian forums are filled with fans of their D:OS games, which are TB games.

Also, since D:OS2 is a recent excellent title, many Larian fans (many of whom might not have played BG) are going to want TB just because it's all they know and they don't want to try something different. At least on the Steam BG3 forums, there is a degree of D:OS2 fans who clearly are not happy that Larian are making anything other than D:OS3, and since they aren't getting D:OS3 right away but are getting BG3, they would like to co-opt BG3 and have it be a reskinned D:OS2. I think those elements of the audience need to be resisted because they are not looking for Baldur's Gate 3 to be Baldur's Gate 3.

Just like it would be selfish and arrogant for Baldur's Gate fans to start demanding D:OS3 use RTwP combat, spiting the fans of the D:OS series, it is also the same when D:OS fans (which I am one of) do the same thing when it comes to BG3. The whole point of announcing Baldur's Gate 3 is to tap into what Baldur's Gate is and means to people, its own legacy and not some other series', and I think it's hard to see how swapping RTwP for TB wouldn't be a bit of a betrayal (and I've already seen that there are those who would call it more than a bit of one). Baldur's Gate 3 is a once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity, or even rarer, and so it would be tragic if it was squandered for the sake of fanservice to a different series.


I love D:OS and its combat system is fun in those games. But, RTwP is also a ton of fun. Both these systems have their places. Baldur's Gate is an iconic RTwP game, and without RTwP it wouldn't really be Baldur's Gate anymore, and with TB combat it would be a semi-clone of D:OS.

Plus, there's Wasteland 3 coming up, and that will have TB combat. So, people who are somehow needing a TB combat game will have their big-title TB combat fix in the same timeframe as when BG3 will release.

Also, Larian will undoubtedly make D:OS3 at some point, maybe after BG3. It would be good for them to expand their skills and do something fresh between D:OS games, which will also keep the TB combat fresher for when they make D:OS3. Making BG3 RTwP will mean that there is larger appeal for another TB game when D:OS3 releases.


The fans who've been loving Baldur's Gate since its release, who've kept its popularity alive, and those who have been waiting for a Baldur's Gate sequel for 2 decades don't deserve a D:OS clone and reskin. I imagine there would be justified anger if Baldur's Gate 3 was not faithful to Baldur's Gate - and RTwP combat is a key aspect of Baldur's Gate's identity.

I'm sure that Larian would like to stretch their creative legs and enjoy doing something different than what they did for their previous two games, themselves, and that they likely would love to show how good they can do RTwP just as they have shown how well they can do TB. Larian have demonstrated their studio to have a high level of skill and creativity, bristling with ideas, and I fully believe there is room in Larian's current and developing expertise to be more than a one-trick pony. Baldur's Gate 3 is a big chance for them to show it once again.


Looking at all aspects, and there are many more than I've mentioned in this post, it would be stupefying to me if Baldur's Gate 3 didn't have RTwP combat. BG has a rich identity, and that RTwP is iconic to it, and I think that anything else wouldn't be the Baldur's Gate that makes the news of BG3 amazing and wonderful for BG's fans. It would be another game - maybe a very good game, but another game all the same, and probably one that should be billed as its own thing and not presented as Baldur's Gate 3.


Larian is a fantastic developer, and D:OS is a fantastic series. I'm sure and certainly hope it will continue to be one when D:OS3 is made. Right now, though Larian are making Baldur's Gate, not D:OS, and I'm looking very forward to a new Baldur's Gate game, and then a new D:OS game afterwards, and not another D:OS game masquerading as a Baldur's Gate game. Let each have their place, and not over-indulge one at the expense of the other.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Delicieuxz] #652792
09/06/19 11:48 AM
09/06/19 11:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 172
Seelenernter Offline

member
Seelenernter  Offline

member

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by Delicieuxz
Originally Posted by Ellionious
Doesn't look that way. RT is winning.


... I'm looking very forward to a new Baldur's Gate game, and then a new D:OS game afterwards, and not another D:OS game masquerading as a Baldur's Gate game. Let each have their place, and not over-indulge one at the expense of the other.


This, exactly this!

Problem is the TB crowd became as toxic as the self-proclaimed pro-powergaming RT crowd over the years. Tolerance (and even the awareness about it to begin with) is something rare these days.

Last edited by Seelenernter; 09/06/19 11:49 AM.

Think for yourself! Or others will do it...
Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652794
09/06/19 01:53 PM
09/06/19 01:53 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
kanisatha Offline
journeyman
kanisatha  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
I completely agree with the last two posters. @Delicieuxz's post is especially welcome to me given that it is from a D:OS fan. As a passionate fan of the first two BG games, I too hope fans of the D:OS games won't demand that Larian turn BG3 into a D:OS clone.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652801
09/06/19 07:48 PM
09/06/19 07:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Brent2410 Offline OP
stranger
Brent2410  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
I want turn based. I'm not looking for a "D:OS clone" - I just want something that is true to how D&D is actually played. Calling any turn based fantasy game a D:OS clone is as bad as calling every ARPG a Diablo clone or every FPS a Goldeneye clone. There's room for more than one game in each genre. XCOM and D:OS are the only games that really come to mind when I think of turn based top downs - and I can't think of a single turn based top down that uses D&D core rules. As a fan of all three, D:OS, BG, and D&D, I want something that comes as close to actual D&D as possible, because it's never been done before. If I want RTwP, I have an absolute metric ton of wonderful games to choose from. If I want actual D&D in a video game, I have no good options. Sequels aren't limited to the genre of their predecessors, they should evolve into a better game - just look at the step Risk of Rain recently took.

I'm still going to buy and play it either way, for sure - Larian already has my money. But I really just want actual D&D in a video game for the first time ever.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652803
09/06/19 08:25 PM
09/06/19 08:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 18
D
Delicieuxz Offline
stranger
Delicieuxz  Offline
stranger
D

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by Brent2410

I'm still going to buy and play it either way, for sure - Larian already has my money. But I really just want actual D&D in a video game for the first time ever.


I think D&D done in RTwP with full D&D rounds happening in the background is actual D&D. In the same sense, having game AI isn't perfectly identical to having a human DM. The same is true for various other aspects of any D&D video game.

That said, TB-only D&D has been done in a video game before, and you can currently buy it on sale at GoG for 75% off:

The Temple of Elemental Evil

If you get it, there's a community patch that people recommend. There's a link to it in the GoG forum.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Delicieuxz] #652806
09/06/19 08:58 PM
09/06/19 08:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Brent2410 Offline OP
stranger
Brent2410  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
I'll give it a shot for $1.50. I'm not familiar with 3.5, played 2 AD&D until 5e came out. The plethora of 5 and 1 star reviews has me concerned, but it looks decent. Still doesn't scratch the itch of having a building tool to create a campaign and host a session... or even multiplayer to play with friends.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652826
11/06/19 08:28 AM
11/06/19 08:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 5
Colorado
L
Labeled Offline
stranger
Labeled  Offline
stranger
L

Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 5
Colorado
So with the game being based on 5e, I feel like realtime will take all feeling of d&d out of it for me at least. This partially comes from having played 5e, and watched a lot of 5e content.

In combat, it is divided into rounds(6sec), in 1 round everyone takes a turn, order determined by your initiative roll.
During combat you get a MOVE action, up to your speed so depending on race or other variables 30+Ft
you also get to take an ACTION such as ATTACK, or something else such as DODGE or READY.
You also get a BONUS ACTION, this can come from Class features, spells or other abilities, they let you take an additional action.
along side that you also get a REACTION, certain special abilities, spells or situations can grant you a reaction, Attack of Opportunity for example would be a reaction.(this usually doesn't come into play until you're a higher level)

With real time, you lose a lot of nuance of the 5e rules, as a cleric you have to take more than 1 round to be able to move and cast a heal on a party member for example with real time, when the rules actually allow you to move and cast in your turn. In my experience with BG the enemy will still be attacking when I could have had the time to move and heal in a turn based environment.

Now I understand that people just want their classic BG experience, and that is fine, I'm sure they could do both with their engine, but If it is really based on 5e, it would be a shame to miss out on a lot of the combat rules. If you need to keep pausing to take advantage of the rules or to line up your magic, why not just have it turn based anyway?

I didn't play BG back in the day, I only just started playing before larians announcement. I often get frustrated wishing it was turn based like 2e it was based on. I'm only playing through with 4 characters, I can't imagine having to manage 6 characters pausing all the time when the game could have just been turn based in the first place. Now a way around this is with AI scripts, which is a weird thing to me. However it explains to me why people want RTwP, they don't actually have to control that many companions that way.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Labeled] #652832
11/06/19 06:12 PM
11/06/19 06:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1
Aver Offline
stranger
Aver  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1
Quote
With real time, you lose a lot of nuance of the 5e rules, as a cleric you have to take more than 1 round to be able to move and cast a heal on a party member for example with real time, when the rules actually allow you to move and cast in your turn. In my experience with BG the enemy will still be attacking when I could have had the time to move and heal in a turn based environment.

Now I understand that people just want their classic BG experience, and that is fine, I'm sure they could do both with their engine, but If it is really based on 5e, it would be a shame to miss out on a lot of the combat rules. If you need to keep pausing to take advantage of the rules or to line up your magic, why not just have it turn based anyway?


You can move and cast heal in the same round. BG1 and BG2 still track turns, so within one turn you can cast one spell and until the end of the turn you won't be able to cast another one, but you can move as much as you want before end of the turn.

While some classes have interesting things to do every turn, like clerics, druids or sorcerers, there are classes that are less engaging, for example Warlock often keeps casting Eldritch Blast until his target is dead, because they have very limited amount of spells. The same with warrior, often for the most of combat he just keeps hitting his target with a sword until the target is dead. It's not fun to keep doing it over and over and over again in a video game, so I like that in BG you just order a warrior to attack an enemy and he will keep hitting it until it dies or you change that order. No need for micromanagement of each basic attack.

Also BG1 and BG2 is known for combat encounters with many opponents. Like storming Gnoll Fortress and murdering dozens of Gnolls in one battle. On top of that you have 6 companions and you can summon monsters, skeletons etc. All that leads to situation where encounters with 30+ combatants are common. If I had to wait for all 20 gnolls to do their turn and then wait for my summoned pack of dogs to finish their turn before I order my warrior to hit a gnoll with a sword and then my warlock to cast Eldrich Blast etc. and then wait again for all those freaking gnolls to do their turn again, then I would never finish BG1.

One could say that the solution is to make encounters small, so you don't have to wait for 20 gnolls/gibberlings/kobolds to finish their turn first, but I would say "OVER MY DEAD BODY!" It was great to slash your way through army of gnolls after you leveled up enough. Heroic fantasy at its best. Combat was intense, fast and yet still tactical. I have many great memories about making the last stand in some choke point against overwhelming number of enemies and I hope to make new ones in BG3.

Also enemies in BG don't scale up, so if I visit a lower level location with my experienced party, I still might encounter a pack of kobolds. In RTwP it takes to 10 seconds to clear them and continue my adventure. In turn based I would have to wait for each of them to do their turn and I would waste 5 minutes for a combat where my enemy don't even have a chance to really hit me.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652841
11/06/19 09:47 PM
11/06/19 09:47 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
kanisatha Offline
journeyman
kanisatha  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 78
Salem, MA, USA
Also, I just don't get the sense of achievement and satisfaction from killing a big bad enemy (a dragon, for example) in TB as I do in RTwP. In TB, after inflicting damage little by little over many turns across many rounds I finally inflict that last little bit of damage with one of my characters that causes the big bad enemy to fall, rather than feeling accomplishment, all I feel is a sense of relief that the stupid battle is finally over.

Furthermore, one of the most common complaints I have seen about RTwP combat is that it is too "chaotic." Yet for me, this is a complaint I just cannot understand, because for me combat SHOULD be chaotic. I want combat to be messy and confusing and chaotic, because that is what makes it real and evokes tension in me and gets my blood pumping. TB combat is far too clean and neat and orderly and "perfect." I feel like I'm just going through the motions, following a predetermined and set algorithem for exactly what I need to "optimally" do to win the battle.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652862
12/06/19 09:40 AM
12/06/19 09:40 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 538
4verse Offline

addict
4verse  Offline

addict

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 538
i took the liberty to post the poll in the steam forums.

also imo there is no definitive answer RTwP vs TB

but i am very apprehensive of larian being shit stormed by one or the other zealot group (see the steam forums already)

if possible larian should implement both systems, otherwise ...

Last edited by 4verse; 12/06/19 09:43 AM.

"I don't make games to make money, I make money to make games". ( (c) Swen Vincke via (maybe Not-)Devin @ Kickstarter)
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2