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Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652865
12/06/19 10:04 AM
12/06/19 10:04 AM
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Tuco Offline
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Definitely going with turn-based here.

Not only it's my opinion that it's an inherently superior system to rtwp and one of the very few things that stopped BG2 from approaching perfection.
I'm also far less confident in Larian's ability to deliver a good rtwp in general.

That said, neither option would be a deal breaker for me, as far as well implemented.
I'm far more concerned about how Larian will handle itemization frankly. Will they go the BG2 road (one of the best games ever made in that sense) or stick to their randomized loot system used in both the D:OS games, which was frankly garbage and the greatest flaw in the game?

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652867
12/06/19 10:21 AM
12/06/19 10:21 AM
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Is there not a way to put a forum based poll in the OP as opposed to one hosted elsewhere. I have voted, but when I went later to check results, it gave me the option to vote again(I didn't). I would have concerns about how accurate it is.

For me I'll just be happy with a BG game at all. But, truth be told for me personally I struggle playing RTwP when in multiplayer. A turn based system like
Divinity: OS 1&2 is perfect for me. I think I may have read somewhere on the forums concerns in it breaking gameplay for players elsewhere. I don't see this as an issue as if you aren't in combat you don't get affected by it and carry on unimpeded.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: 0Muttley0] #652874
12/06/19 12:50 PM
12/06/19 12:50 PM
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Brent2410 Offline OP
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To be honest, I don't know how to make a poll in forum. I do know that you can't vote twice in a strawpoll, though.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652876
12/06/19 01:29 PM
12/06/19 01:29 PM
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ZeroFerox Offline
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This Poll is crap. Change IP and you can vote again. All serious Surveys indicates that its a 50:50. Larian CANT win this except they implement BOTH combat systems like Pillars of Eternity 2 did with their 5.0 Update and let the user decide which one they want to use.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: ZeroFerox] #652877
12/06/19 01:36 PM
12/06/19 01:36 PM
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Tuco Offline
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Anyone willing to go and change his own IP just to cheat on this poll has some serious issues and desperately needs to find better ways to spend his time, frankly.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652880
12/06/19 03:22 PM
12/06/19 03:22 PM
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One of my favored D&D game is "Temple of Elemental Evil" because of the turn-based gameplay.
So I vote TB , not RTWP (and not because of D:OS , which I enjoyed only moderatly)

I always found RTWP to be quite unclear, even as a BG fan.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652881
12/06/19 03:46 PM
12/06/19 03:46 PM
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kanisatha Offline
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I don't see how someone can be a BG fan and not have liked the BG combat system. That combat system is integral to why those games were so awesome and to the way they felt and played.

The more I learn about Larian's plans for this game, the more pessimistic and disillusioned I am becoming. First they talked about cutting back on misses in combat and possibly even dropping the to-hit mechanism. Now they're talking about easier and faster leveling, and getting rid of spell slots. I feel this is going to be just another D:OS game pretending to be a D&D/BG game, complete with the very boring and superficial D:OS combat system.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652885
12/06/19 07:39 PM
12/06/19 07:39 PM
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kanisatha Offline
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I don't think this poll, or any other poll, is of much value because I'm sure Larian had already decided the game was going to be TB a long time ago. I think they are waiting on revealing this in the hope that in the meantime the RTwP fans will get hyped up and invested in the game such that when TB is revealed they will simply accept it.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: kanisatha] #652887
12/06/19 08:02 PM
12/06/19 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
I don't think this poll, or any other poll, is of much value because I'm sure Larian had already decided the game was going to be TB a long time ago.

Basically the reason why I've been hesitating to post any sort of "suggestions" or "ideas" on here. God knows we made tons of suggestions back in the DOS2 days before DOS2DE came out, and even before that, when patches for DOS2 were still being rolled out constantly, and what happened to all those suggestions? As a hardcore BG fan who's been playing/modding the games for years, I do have my own thoughts I'd like to share, but to be honest, I'm not sure how receptive the crew at Larian are toward all the suggestions we make on here. I'm sure they *read* most, if not all, what we post, but, well. For now I'm content with lurking and reading others' posts.



Last edited by Try2Handing; 12/06/19 08:04 PM.

"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652888
12/06/19 08:20 PM
12/06/19 08:20 PM
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loudent Offline
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Real time with pause options is really the best of most worlds since you can set auto pause at the start of a characters turn and such.

This also opens up the possibility of MP since you just disable pausing

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652895
13/06/19 12:27 AM
13/06/19 12:27 AM
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Somebody is spamming the RTwP or TB poll right now with votes for TB. There was a 3:1 ratio in favour of RTwP 20 minutes ago, and now every time I refresh the poll page like 15 seconds apart there are another 2 votes for TB.

Someone is using IP spoofing to manipulate the poll in favour of TB. That's sad.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652896
13/06/19 01:35 AM
13/06/19 01:35 AM
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So, that was interesting. Within an hour, the poll on RTwP or TB has gone from looking like this (mock-up):

[Linked Image]

To looking like this:

[Linked Image]


When I was hitting the refresh button on my browser, the TB votes were going up incrementally with each refresh. I think both sides were being spammed. But the votes for TB were obviously being manipulated.


Edit: Yup, they were being spammed: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086...37/?tscn=1560378420#c1639788130269478732

Considering that poster is pretending RTwP was being spammed and TB wasn't (TB went up a lot more between the times I checked), I think they're the spammer of TB.

Last edited by Delicieuxz; 13/06/19 02:01 AM.
Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652901
13/06/19 04:15 AM
13/06/19 04:15 AM
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The pseudo real-time combat mechanic in BG is just awful. Larian should stick to what they do best.
IMO, the best ever combat for RPG is Fallout 1/2.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652902
13/06/19 04:29 AM
13/06/19 04:29 AM
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I liked Neverwinter 2 combat. You can pause, or not. The flow of the combat was to my liking it moved as fast as you wanted. Original sin 1 really turned me off with the turn based being so slow.


Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Legion of Doom - Dungeons and Dragons online server Orion Doom ~ Kahzadoom ~ Nexus
Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Doomlord] #652905
13/06/19 06:12 AM
13/06/19 06:12 AM
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RTwP allows misses more effectively than TB in my opinion! Which is more to the D&D rules where misses are quite common in the earlier levels.

You can fire off a few initial spells, and instead of having to do something every turn, you can just watch it happen for a bit... Easy fights are easy without needing to pause.

TB slows the game quite a bit, and if it is a game without cooldowns or without a lot of special attacks (ie. a lot of white attacks), then RTwP is much better. You can allow some party members just do their thing under their AI direction without having to worry. TB slows all that down.

The focus should be on the role play, not the combat and RTwP allows that focus to be where it should be..... IMO lol

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652926
13/06/19 11:07 PM
13/06/19 11:07 PM
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I'm pretty disappointed the Poll only has one or the other, and not a voting option for both. In fact, I'm pretty disappointed in general how much support I see for one option or the other, with no mention of simply showing general demand/support for Larian providing both options. Especially since some of the "arguments" for one or the other option turn extremely vicious, condescending, or insulting.

Larian is an excellent studio with a good track record of not rushing games or cutting corners, I think its extremely fair to hope that they consider themselves financially and developmentally capable of providing both options, it strikes me as incredibly stupid that we as their community aren't making it abundantly clear we absolutely want both, and are accepting of the additional development time/cost that may incur (though I have difficulty thinking it would be some sort of insane difference, as RTwP is fundamentally TB, but with less direct control).

While I respect that previous BG entries have been RTwP, it has some serious issues in terms of making certain classes/playstyles pretty much unplayable. The base D&D rules these games are built on have no allowance for "Well your Wizard cast fireball on Target X, but at the same time that he was casting, Target X ran into melee range of your front line, you just fireballed your front line and there's nothing you can do about it!", or the alternative "You cast Fireball at Square X, all the enemies moved while you were casting, you just fireballed an empty field!". This goes for pretty much any AOE in the previous games.

At the same time, I understand that some people find being stuck with TB for every single fight in games that are admittedly MUCH more combat heavy than the tabletops they are based off of, especially combats with large numbers of unthreatening minions that require little to no strategy to annihilate, can begin to feel very grindy/boring.

So, what is the solution for dealing with the potential drawbacks of either system? HAVE BOTH FOR THE LOVE OF BAAL! Every single person who posts a long-winded, patronizing, argumentative post about why it should be one or the other, without at least starting their rant with "If Its not going to be both, which is the best option, I want it to be...." looks like a complete nincompoop to me. Best case scenario, you try and actually enjoy both systems, allowing you an entire additional playthrough of the game that feels unique from your previous runs. Worst case scenario, you hate one so much you never even try it, but other people buy the game wanting the system you don't, game makes more money, maybe gets additional lifespan/support/content/expansions, you get more game out of your game on the backs of people you disagree with (and insult freely). BOTH WAYS YOU WIN.

TL;DR: PLEASE GOD STOP ARGUING FOR ONE OR THE OTHER WITHOUT AT LEAST MENTIONING "BOTH" IS BY FAR THE BEST POSSIBLE OPTION FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652930
14/06/19 04:36 AM
14/06/19 04:36 AM
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Try2Handing Offline
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Quote
Every single person who posts a long-winded, patronizing, argumentative post about why it should be one or the other, without at least starting their rant with "If Its not going to be both, which is the best option...."

I think I know why people don't do that. "Instead of arguing which is better, I'll be content with saying both would be best". If everyone is content with saying the OBVIOUS, which is "both would be best", WHAT ELSE is there to talk about??? The point of these "discussions" is to make a point that can be argued for and against, so that people can share different points of view, so that they have something to think about and talk about. It promotes thinking, reasoning, understanding others, and in this case, writing too, if someone cares enough to pay attention to what they're typing. If everyone just says, "yeah both would be best", then there's just.... nothing. Nothing to think about. Nothing further to say. It's a completely empty conversation. So to answer your question, it's because the "both would be best" stance is so obvious and mind-numbing that most don't bother to mention it.

The fact that people's arguments start becoming obnoxious is a different matter. The fact that people can't resist acting like arrogant and ignorant 8-year-olds doesn't mean "debating" is bad. It's not the debating. It's because people are people.

With your post, you're essentially asking questions like "Why do people fight?", "Why do wars exist?", "Why is human such an evil race and this world such a rotten place?", and screaming "STOP MAKING WARS AND JUST LIVE PEACEFULLY TOGETHER, HUMANS!" at random people. There's nothing wrong with asking yourself such questions, but, you know, they rarely lead you anywhere. You just realize that you can't change people. The best you can do is strive to be a better person yourself. That's about it.

Not that I have any problem with your post. I don't participate in any of the recent discussions regarding BG3, so I couldn't care less what people say. I just couldn't resist, sorry.

That said, I agree that having EVERYTHING as options so ANYONE can choose whatever they want is DEFINITELY the BEST outcome. (See, this is why I'm not participating in all these discussions.)

PS: It's "BHAAL", btw.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 14/06/19 04:40 AM.

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Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Try2Handing] #652932
14/06/19 06:02 AM
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DerricktheCleric Offline
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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
[quote]The point of these "discussions" is to make a point that can be argued for and against, so that people can share different points of view, so that they have something to think about and talk about. It promotes thinking, reasoning, understanding others, and in this case, writing too.


While I appreciate that impressively optimistic take on this whole thing, I have to disagree. The point of overtly failing to point out the obvious solution, or in this case leave the best vote-able choice off of the poll, is not to promote discussion and growth, its to bait a fight for fun. Going hard into one side or the other without admitting that Both is the obvious solution is like throwing a mannequin into an intersection to watch the resulting crash. Its inciting drama and argument for no good reason.

This is in no way comparable to disagreements/fights over situations with no clear cut answer. Wars for example are generally over a lack of resources, they come into existence for measurable concrete underlying causes, and a failure or inability to find an alternative to conflict.

This situation is literally nothing like that. There's a simple, attainable, obvious solution. Also, the point of this forum is (at least I hope it is) to communicate with the Developers. While I appreciate your high-minded ideals of scholarly debate, the discussion of RTwP vs. TB could be had anywhere, it could even be had on these very forums, it just 100% does not have to be couched in terms of what this upcoming game should be. Argue the merits of either all you want, just do it on a general level, don't try to force it onto the actual game, when the game could just be both! Why are we wasting time communicating our ability to have pointless, infantile arguments, when we could simply all communicate that we would like the clearly most rewarding and objectively best outcome here, and anything less is just plain unacceptable?

If I walked into a room where two people were purchasing an RC Plane and one person was arguing that the landing gear should be cut off and destroyed because they only care about the plane flying, while the other was arguing that the wings should be cut off and destroyed because they only cared about it being able to roll down a landing strip, I wouldn't stop and appreciate the beauty of their scholarly discourse. I would call them both idiots, and let them know that if they just stop arguing, they already have something that gives both of them what they want.

Admittedly, all of this assumes that Larian studios possesses the necessary expertise and developing budget to provide a game capable of both RTwP and TB combat as options at the same time. I'm making that assumption because the two systems simply aren't that dissimilar, other studios with fewer resources have done it to excellent effect (see PoE 2), and I'm pretty sure the 19 years worth of improvements to game engines and developer expertise should make it a low bar to hurdle. Now if Larian's developers come out and say "Sorry but it would cost an extra $250M to have two combat systems, we're going with just one" then my assumptions will have been wrong, but I will be very surprised if that's the obstacle blocking this game from being awesome for both sides of the aisle.

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652963
15/06/19 06:08 AM
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Brent2410 Offline OP
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I think I would rather have just one of them done to perfection over both of them done pretty good. I would prefer TB - But if it comes down to it, I would rather have a fully fleshed out RTwP with no TB system if having both made it seem like corners were cut. I just want it to be good, either way, really. I'm already a bit worried about when Swen mentioned something like, 'In D&D you miss a lot if the dice are bad. That doesn't work well in video games.'

If the video game is based on D&D, then it works exactly how it's supposed to. TB or RTwP debate worries me much less than his statement. Tweak around the edges how you like, but at least leave a setting in game to give the option to have core rules complete with random dice rolls. What's the point of even getting the license from WOTC if you're not going to make a game with D&D rules?

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 [Re: Brent2410] #652964
15/06/19 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Brent2410
What's the point of even getting the license from WOTC if you're not going to make a game with D&D rules?


Following my own advice and starting this with "Please do both, both is just better than either alone", I do have to point out that RTwP is going to ruin it for you if you're concerned about following the core rules. D&D is a turn based game. The moment you switch to RTwP, you have to massively change a whole slew of things to make the game work. Its the core mechanic of combat, you change it, you have to rewrite the whole thing from the ground up. I love the BG series, but they play absolutely nothing like a tabletop in any measurable way. Most of what's good/fun/rewarding about strategic thought and party planning in tabletops is utterly absent in RTwP games, as there's no feasible way to pull it off due to the overlapping chaos of actions.

Take hit rates for example, if its RTwP they're going to get adjusted away from the core ruleset, there's no two ways about that. One of the things hit rates in a TB system assume is enemy actions being split up by friendly actions. Your ranger gets hit by 3 of the 6 enemies you are facing, but then turn 4 your Cleric comes up and can throw out a heal, so you're doing okay. In RTwP, all 6 enemies act at the same time. If all 6 hit your ranger, boom, ranger dead, no opportunity for counterplay of any kind. Time to save scum or write off the Ranger, all while your Cleric has a full complement of healing spells available you simply weren't given the opportunity to use. How do you offset this in RTwP? You bottom out enemy hit rates to spread the damage, and up Player hit rates so they can chew through multiple enemies faster before a stroke of bad luck still causes those 6 simultaneous hits.

Pathfinder Kingmaker is a rather depressing direct example of this exact thing. I love, love, loooooooove the Pathfinder ruleset with all my heart. I was so excited to hear a PC game based on it was being released. Then they did it RTwP, no TB option. The result? A game with a veneer of Pathfinder lore and gameplay that is literally NOTHING like Pathfinder, at all, in any way. It was hideously disappointing to say the least. To be fair, it might have been a fun game if I hadn't wanted it to be Pathfinder, but because I bought Pathfinder Kingmaker hoping for a Pathfinder game, and got a generic RTwP "select all and autoattack" snoozefest, it was just a huge letdown.

Anyway, I digress, I really just wanted to say, if you want a game that keeps the actual D&D ruleset, I would suggest advocating hard for it having both RTwP and TB, because the TB option makes it much more likely they'll actually use the mechanics of the source material.

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