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Party size and PC vs Companion composition #653876
10/07/19 07:42 PM
10/07/19 07:42 PM
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Omegaphallic Offline OP
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Do you think it will be like BG 1 or 2 with 1 PC with 3-6 companions or might it be more like Wasteland 2 with 4 PC characters and up to 3 companions? Or perhaps more like Pathfinder with 1 PC and your pick between exchangable mercanries (none Protagonist PCs) and Companions? Something else entirely? Maybe a mix?

I have a feeling it will be closer to Wasteland 2, you start with a small party of PCs, say 4-6 and you can add say 2-4 companions (pets like Beastmaster's Companion, Paladin Steeds, Familiars and such not counting as Companions). I mean it sounds like the party is the protangonist for BG 3 not an single individual like in previous BGs. It also makes one wonder what they mean by gather your party, like how and who is doing the gathering. Is their a party leader. Can the PC (if I'm wrong and their is a single protangonist) be one of the Companions like on Divinity: Original Sin 2?

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653881
10/07/19 08:54 PM
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We do not talk enough about this. It is good to have a threat specifically made to talk about party mechanics and interaction. It was a central point in former bg and IE games. Also in several Larian games.

I´ve had my blast with W2 and the NWN 2 Storm of Zehir campaign. Create a party of 4 and recruit new companions with their own personality, agenda, etc. I liked the middle ground between party creation and companion banters.
But I have to say that the thing I liked the most about Bg games (Also NWN2, DA, P:K, etc) was the companions and the relations with <charname> and the other companions of the party.
I understand If they let you hire and create your own mercenaries ( Games like P:K or DoS2 allow you do that) but I prefer an entire party of sentient, talking companions you can interact to and listen while they talk between them.

One thing I liked about DoS2 is the fact that you can choose your companions´ base class in a dialog before recruiting them. In some d&d NWN2´s mods, you also have this option. It is one of the few mechanics of DoS that you can safely implement in a D&D 5e simulator (And I think most of us agree that is what we want, a D&D based game). That will also let you mix parties that you normally do not take, because they have duplicate roles, etc. You only have to choose the characters and party you like most, all for RP purposes, not utility purposes.
I could be challenging because you do have to create a companions´s background that can adjust to different classes, but It would be worthwhile.


If we say Baldur´s gate: a classic 6-men party. If you have the huge number of roles, skills and classes of 5e (even if they do not let you choose all) I think is a fair number. Also, the more companions, the merrier. In DoS2 they made a mod to be able to have 6 companions anyway, and that mod had like 2KK downloads, so they better do that in the base game so we do not waste time wink


-Can the PC (if I'm wrong and there is a single protagonist) be one of the Companions like on Divinity: Original Sin 2?

It would be awesome. Adds replayability and also allows you to live the adventure in different perspectives. To be able to finish a campaign and later can restart and shape the story of one that was one of your former companions (and usually learn more about them, his/her story and motivations) was refreshing and one of the things I liked the most. That also allows you to have different origins, not the same I-am-a-baalspawn- from-candlekeep (for example) for all characters.

I like that type of details. In DAO the different origins mechanic was masterfully made, but I found in DoS2 the part about the companion-that-can-be-a-MC refreshing. Makes you feel part of a bigger world, not the center of a world specifically made for you.

But in a CRPG game, I expect that you also have the option to create your own character, background, etc and RP according to. Because most of the time that is what you want when creating a character in this type of games. I do not think that would be in question because the game has MP and the devs of larian already took note of it in the kickstarter campaign ( originally in DOS you do not have mercenaries or in DoS2 you were not able to create an original character. The companion origins are still far better than a new character).

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653884
10/07/19 09:36 PM
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Omegaphallic Offline OP
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Another to concider is multi-player, which will be in. Will each Player play a different character or will each Player have it's own party?

I think it will be like a mix of Wasteland 2 and Divinity: Original Sin 2.

What I think is we will start with 4 characters that like Divinity OS2 can be starter companions with more depths, or make your own characters with a bit less depth, but still having depth like Divinity: OS2 protagonist, but over time recruit new Companions.

Alternately like P:KM you will have a functionally a pool of party members party members, but if the party itself is the protangonist, there will just be companions and "mercenaries", but the mercenaries will have more depth, interactions, and personality, maybe even banter, then in P: KM, thanks to backgrounds and the decentralized character narrative of BG 3.

Last edited by Omegaphallic; 10/07/19 10:04 PM.
Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653886
11/07/19 12:26 AM
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Some players don't like to 'micro- manage' other party members. Atleast for 'origin' characters give the option for them to auto choose how they upgrade each level.
Iike in DOS2 having the option of playing as different origin characters is fantastic and adds replayability.
Purely optional, but some would like to have the other characters in your party attack controlled by the computer.
Extra campanions, animals/summons etc, is part of DnD so should be present.

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653894
11/07/19 02:58 AM
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I personally am against the whole ‘companions as charname’ 100%
Why? Because I’ve played DoS2 a total of 7 times and completely lost the desire to replay the game. I never even finished it with a true self made character because it became painfully obvious it was the least fleshed out and added zero to the story. All of your possible responses were the generic ones you’ve seen on every other play through with the ‘companions.’ The choices and extent of the story was baked into your decision at the beginning of the game. I’ve replayed The BG series probably close to 50-60 times over the years, and always go back to it due to its complexity in choice that shapes how the rest of your game unfolds. The elf chick and fane were the most powerful and that was that. Any min max gamer was stuck to those two toons in every play through with incredibly little variance due to their predetermined pros and cons. I am hoping BG3 will bring as much desire to replay and try new builds/approaches as Bg1 and 2 by not shoehorning abilities and stats to premade characters that always makes them the better choice over a created PC

I liked their approach in DoS2 for DoS2 and without it, I probably wouldn’t have replayed it 7 times, but it just completely falls flat when compared to BG. Revealing parts of the story only through certain options is fine, but don’t limit those choices to one set of ‘eyes’ and allow any character the ability to experience it through their choices during the game.

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653903
11/07/19 10:51 AM
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Honestly its realy hard to say at this point.
It comes down to how the system is implemented.
If we are looking at somehting like OS2, then the difference between PC and NPC will only be wether or not a character is actually played by a Human.
However, this beeing DnD, i cannot see them going that way, or more specifically, i dont want them to.

in OS2 i kind of liked the fixed characters. But then again, thats because i realy liked them, or rather i liekd Red Prince, Lohse and Sebille.
But if i for example wanted to play a Female Dwarf, then id be shit out of luck, because playing a non Origin character is just flat out worse than playing one.Period. You just miss out on the content of one character and feel less connected to the world.

Id personally prefer something like Dragon Ages origin system: a Backstory in which you can full ycreate a character in. a family, a little introduction, a palce in the world but not a pregenerated character.
That however opens another question: how many PC slots are there, what happens to those stories if the PCs arent taking over? Are companions compleltey seperate from the PC origins or are they the "canon" versions of those origins?

on OS2s origins: you realize that origin characters usually have the same options as non origin characters in terms of descision making.
Playing Ifan doesnt realy "force" any descisions on you.
You can even kill the Red Princess as the Red Prince, its just realy stupid to do so.

Last edited by Sordak; 11/07/19 10:57 AM.
Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653909
11/07/19 12:20 PM
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This will most likely a 4 party characters. The game is on the hand of Larian. A console developer. Both DOS games were on consoles. So BG3 being on consoles are no brainer. Like it or not this is what it is. If will be turn based with 4 party characters. As I see it DOS2 clone but DND and baldur's gate settings. That's all. Not to mention that 4 party characters are easier to manage on controllers and simpler games will appeal to a bigger audience. That's basically what they wanted. Casualisation is inevitable.

Last edited by Archaven; 11/07/19 12:26 PM.
Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653910
11/07/19 12:53 PM
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My eyes can only roll so hard my dude.
Why would it be 4 players? because Larian made 2 (2! TWO!!!) games with that party size?
And larian is a console developer? Mate! The game isnt even announced for any console.

Dios mio, the ammount of boogeymen living rent free in your mind... you sure you arent an OS2 origin character?

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653915
11/07/19 02:02 PM
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@Archaven, you are correct. Very likely only a party size of 4, which will be another sore point against the game.

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653942
12/07/19 11:30 AM
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No he isnt correct, we dont know if he is.
Stop hyping yourself up with your rigtheus fury rage boner

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653944
12/07/19 12:16 PM
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In this interview, in 7.40 the interviewer asked Swen Vinke about the origins stories in DoS2 and if they will make a comeback in bg3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M57vTyM-iE4

Swen answered that It´s a system that will evolve. One of the things that they focus on is the party and personal stories. It was explored [in DoS2] but it was not really explored as I would have wanted. Party will be important but also the Hero [singular] . In this party, each Hero has the story of their origin if you choose that but you can also obviously make your story anyway.

Last edited by _Vic_; 13/07/19 02:26 AM.
Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: _Vic_] #653947
12/07/19 07:07 PM
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Needs to be PC and 5 more party slots you can either create yourself or choose NPC's created by Larian.

Period.

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Artagel] #653957
13/07/19 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Artagel
Needs to be PC and 5 more party slots you can either create yourself or choose NPC's created by Larian.

Period.


I don't think a single character holds the position of "PC", like I said I think the party itself is going to be the "PC" aka the protangonist, I don't think the plot will centre on a single character like it did in BG 1 & 2, Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2, Planescape Torment, Tides of Numenera, Pathfinder: Kingmaker and so on.

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653959
13/07/19 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by Artagel
Needs to be PC and 5 more party slots you can either create yourself or choose NPC's created by Larian.

Period.


I don't think a single character holds the position of "PC", like I said I think the party itself is going to be the "PC" aka the protangonist, I don't think the plot will centre on a single character like it did in BG 1 & 2, Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2, Planescape Torment, Tides of Numenera, Pathfinder: Kingmaker and so on.

I think his point was more about party size, which he wants to be 6.

Personally, so do I. This is another signature element of the series. If they're going to reduce party size to anything below 6, I really hope their reason would be something better than "so that the console crowd would have an easier time playing the game" or "because 6-member party makes balancing/implementing combat too much to handle" or "so that we don't have to create as many companions".

Last edited by Try2Handing; 13/07/19 02:04 AM.

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Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: _Vic_] #653961
13/07/19 02:22 AM
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And if they do not, I am pretty sure the first week we will have the "6-men-party" mod version bg3, as they did before. laugh



Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by Artagel
Needs to be PC and 5 more party slots you can either create yourself or choose NPC's created by Larian.

Period.


I don't think a single character holds the position of "PC", like I said I think the party itself is going to be the "PC" aka the protangonist, I don't think the plot will centre on a single character like it did in BG 1 & 2, Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2, Planescape Torment, Tides of Numenera, Pathfinder: Kingmaker and so on.


In this interview, Swen Vincke, CEO of Larian hinted that it is not going to be the case, but we will have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by _Vic_
In this interview, in 7.40 the interviewer asked Swen Vinke about the origins stories in DoS2 and if they will make a comeback in bg3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M57vTyM-iE4
Party will be important but also the Hero [singular] . In this party, each Hero has the story of their origin if you choose that but you can also obviously make your story anyway.





Last edited by _Vic_; 13/07/19 02:37 AM.
Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653964
13/07/19 03:33 AM
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The D&D Starter Set for 5E says that it is for 4 to 6 players.
https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/rpg_starterset

The D&D Essentials Kit says it is for 2-6 players. (Look at the top of the Boxes picture.)
https://www.target.com/p/dungeons-dragons-essentials-kit-game/-/A-76151594

So if they wanted to just do 4 players. It is part of the rules. I hope they give us 6 though. smile

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Nobody_Special] #653966
13/07/19 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Nobody_Special
The D&D Starter Set for 5E says that it is for 4 to 6 players.
https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/rpg_starterset

The D&D Essentials Kit says it is for 2-6 players. (Look at the top of the Boxes picture.)
https://www.target.com/p/dungeons-dragons-essentials-kit-game/-/A-76151594

So if they wanted to just do 4 players. It is part of the rules. I hope they give us 6 though. smile


A "Starter Set" and an "Essential Kit"? Are you serious? How do these suggested numbers of players have anything to do with BG3?

This game is not a freaking tabletop game that actually involves 6 human beings. This is a video game in which things are processed by a computer. There is only you and your computer. It's a video game, so you don't have to worry about having too many people taking up room space and needing more chairs and tables and there being too much "socializing" and whatnot.

The Critical Role campaigns handle 7-8 players all the time.


"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653969
13/07/19 08:42 AM
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No it is not a table top game. It is a computer game that is adhereing to the D&D rules as closely as possible, which has be suggested by the Swen in the interviews he as given. The Dungeon Master guide is geared with a straight forward XP and encounter tables for 4 players. (It has adjustments that can be made for more players if you are have them.

In the free Basic rules, it only has for races, and four classes available. Suggesting that there would be four players.

As I said, I understand why they would only give us 4 players, but I am hoping for 6.

Critical Role is not the norm. Look at Dice, Camera, Action or Acquisitions INC - The A team or the C team. Most only have 4 players.

4 seems to be the Norm and 8 is not the Norm. I hope they meet in the middle and give us 6

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Omegaphallic] #653979
13/07/19 10:58 AM
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Oh man, critical role.
I wish people would stop thinking critical role is an accurate representation of DnD.
one of the biggest blights on the hobby, next to Sir bearington greentexts.

that beeing said, its prolly gonna be 6 PCs, they are obviously trying out higher numbers of units per side with the Divinity Spinoff (yes i know thats made by another company)

Re: Party size and PC vs Companion composition [Re: Sordak] #653982
13/07/19 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Nobody_Special
It is a computer game that is adhereing to the D&D rules as closely as possible.

It's also supposedly the sequel to an established franchise, in which a party of 6 is a core element. Both "4" and "6" are in your "rules", and there's no rule that says "4" is closer to the rules than "6", so your "adhering to rules" argument is completely meaningless. Not to mention Larian has the ability to change the rules if necessary.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Oh man, critical role.
I wish people would stop thinking critical role is an accurate representation of DnD.
one of the biggest blights on the hobby, next to Sir bearington greentexts.

Ah here we go again with the hate and the "my opinion is superior compared to yours" attitude. What's the word again? You can have your canned opinion, that's fine too. By this point everyone on the forums knows that aside from your worship for "TB combat in general" you hate practically everything else. We got that, loud and clear. Do let us know when you're about to announce you like something.

I mentioned Critical Role just for the "party size" argument. The point was that, there isn't any real "rule" in regard to that. As long as it is manageable and it works for the scope of the game. And there's no reason why a party size of 6 would not work or would be unmanageable in BG3, because it has been done in 20-year-old games to which it claims to be a sequel.

No one has claimed "critical role is an accurate representation of DnD" yet, but some people just can't resist showing off their hate and bitterness every chance they get. It's truly an amazing world we live in.


Last edited by Try2Handing; 13/07/19 11:36 AM.

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