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[DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 #654126
16/07/19 09:53 PM
16/07/19 09:53 PM
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Danielbda Offline OP
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Danielbda  Offline OP
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Hi all,
I'm a huge RPG and D&D fan from Brazil and have been for around 15 years and, as the news came to my ears I couldn't contain my excitement, specially since BG3 will be based on 5ed, which is a middle ground between the complex 3.5ed and the action focused 4ed.
So, let's cut to the business. I would like to offer some suggestions, and my reasons for said suggestions, based on my experience as a player of both tabletop and PC RPGs so to make BG3 potentially more enjoyable (maybe this can become an official thread where other players can also post their suggestions):

1. Party Customization : BG3 should have a customizable companion system or allow for stats customization by the player.
Game devs are not necessarily good at games, that is, in this case if companions come with preset stats and feats, they might not be optimized or even make sense for their class. A good example is Pillars of Eternity, a fantastic game but it does suffer from the aforementioned issue.
Some companions in PoE have poorly allocated stats, which leads to an incentive to not have them on your party. It doesn't matter how well written a companion is, if he/she becomes a nuissance when in combat.
This leads to the next suggestion.

2. Have the companions be recruited early in the campaign:
If companions' stats will be customizable by the players, it would be better to recruit them early, so to build them in whatever way the player would like. Specifically, it would be better to recruit all companions before level 3, which is a turning point in D&D for you are allowed to choose an archetype for your class, and every player has his/her preferences for each class.

3. Have at least a companion of each class:
Every player has his/her optimal party composition. Having all the classes at your disposal allows you to try them all and will lead to less frustration and moments such as "How I wish I had someone to use Crown of Madness and make this two dragons fight each other" or "How I wish I had a Bard to use an enchantment and convince this NPC to allow me passage without combat".
This was done in Dragon Age: Inquisition, where you have a companion that represents each subclass in the game.

4. Dynamic companion quests/Dynamic quests:
The previous suggestions lead to a very interesting question: What if the companion quests (something standard that I imagine is already planned) change according to their archetypes?
For example, you have a companion Paladin that can choose between several oaths at level 3. These determine his tenants as well as have a lot to with his personality and motivations. An oath of vengeance Paladin would have the same objective as an oath of the ancients Paladin?
Just imagine how much replayability this would add to the game.

5. More magical items (besides +1-3):
5ed suffers from a lack of magical item variety. There are entire weapons types that have no magical items of that type other than +1-3, such as rapiers and crossbows, whereas you have a ton of magical daggers, scimitars and longswords (specially longswords).

6. Better poisons and poisonmaking:
Poison in 5ed sucks. You might require up to a YEAR to craft a single use of poison that is not even that strong. So more potent poisons and just needing the matherials to craft them in a click of a button would be nice.

7. Interactive environments:
Some classes such as the Rogue need an interactive environment to work better. For example, using trees for hiding (through cunning action) during combat, or use a window to sneak into a place of interest.

These are the ones at the top of my head right now, but I will edit this post with more. If some developer could read and give some feedback it would be amazing.
Would be cool if the other members put their suggestions here too.


Last edited by Danielbda; 16/07/19 11:13 PM.
Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654580
06/08/19 04:40 AM
06/08/19 04:40 AM
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salobard42 Offline
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Amen!

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654582
06/08/19 06:37 AM
06/08/19 06:37 AM
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LostSoul Offline
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All sounds good.
How about the option of just creating all of your party members from level 1. Obviously optional.
Better crafting (heaps of options for magical and non magical. And quicker to create).
Interesting environs to use in combat.
And I've said before allow friends to bring their characters into your game (it's possible to sort out balance, quest etc issues)

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654620
09/08/19 10:37 AM
09/08/19 10:37 AM
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Lemernis Offline
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I'm actually hoping that the AI is good enough that not only can it simulate a DM well enough (within obvious limits, given that it is a video game), but also that the NPCs can actually think sufficiently independently and creatively for themselves, thereby simulating the experience of playing with other human party members at a PnP game. In other words, I do not control the NPCs and they may at times do things that are surprising and force choices for me.

I know that is asking a lot. But that's my two coppers.

Last edited by Lemernis; 09/08/19 10:39 AM.
Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: LostSoul] #654635
10/08/19 03:24 AM
10/08/19 03:24 AM
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Danielbda Offline OP
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Originally Posted by LostSoul
All sounds good.
How about the option of just creating all of your party members from level 1. Obviously optional.
Better crafting (heaps of options for magical and non magical. And quicker to create).
Interesting environs to use in combat.
And I've said before allow friends to bring their characters into your game (it's possible to sort out balance, quest etc issues)


I think the optimal would be written companions but with fully customizable stats. And like I said before, you being able to recruit them very early in the campaign in any order you want.
I personally really like doing companions' storylines, so I would rather not create robotic companions because the story ones suck (like in PoE).

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654656
10/08/19 10:27 PM
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LostSoul Offline
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This would require extra work.. But dnd 5e has backgrounds to choose. A DM can use your backgrounds for roleplayer/questing.
Just make some quests/dialogue be based on your specific background. Eg if your background is criminal you must choose a particular criminal organisation/in a certain town. When you go to that town you can use your contacts for meaningful dialogue/role-playing options.

The same process can be done for most (or all) backgrounds. Add alignment and personality to other party members there will be no robotic companions.
So if you are a chaotic evil rogue and all the available companions are lawful good, that's a problem. They shouldn't stay in your for too long.

More options, more fun

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654659
10/08/19 10:48 PM
10/08/19 10:48 PM
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Artagel Offline
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Originally Posted by Danielbda

1. Party Customization : BG3 should have a customizable companion system or allow for stats customization by the player.
Game devs are not necessarily good at games, that is, in this case if companions come with preset stats and feats, they might not be optimized or even make sense for their class. A good example is Pillars of Eternity, a fantastic game but it does suffer from the aforementioned issue.
Some companions in PoE have poorly allocated stats, which leads to an incentive to not have them on your party. It doesn't matter how well written a companion is, if he/she becomes a nuissance when in combat.
This leads to the next suggestion.

The option to create all 6 party members should also be an option, for those who like to play Baldurs Gate that way.

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Artagel] #654666
11/08/19 03:37 AM
11/08/19 03:37 AM
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Hawke Online content
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Originally Posted by Artagel
Originally Posted by Danielbda

1. Party Customization : BG3 should have a customizable companion system or allow for stats customization by the player.
Game devs are not necessarily good at games, that is, in this case if companions come with preset stats and feats, they might not be optimized or even make sense for their class. A good example is Pillars of Eternity, a fantastic game but it does suffer from the aforementioned issue.
Some companions in PoE have poorly allocated stats, which leads to an incentive to not have them on your party. It doesn't matter how well written a companion is, if he/she becomes a nuissance when in combat.
This leads to the next suggestion.

The option to create all 6 party members should also be an option, for those who like to play Baldurs Gate that way.


I doubt we will see a party of 6 in BG3 the last DND games all had parties of 4. Maybe 5 members in BG3 because DND 5e was made for 3-5 party members.

Last edited by Hawke; 11/08/19 03:38 AM.
Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654679
11/08/19 07:33 PM
11/08/19 07:33 PM
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_Vic_ Offline
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Albeit I love western CRPG games, as a hardcore fan of strategy games, I always found the fact that you can only use one stack of 6 soldiers at the same time pretty limited. I know in most RPGs you can recruit and switch party members and I appreciate that but I always felt constricted by the number of companions and classes you can use in the same run or at the same time. So a party of four will be a great downside for me.

I like to recruit all characters possible, keep all my recruits leveled up and equipped, switch party members to suit my needs whenever I want and also I like to see the dialogs of the characters in several places, watch different party interactions, etc.

That was not the case in DOS2 games. they decided to limit the number of your party members to 4, limited greatly the party interactions and they made switching difficult (but you can respec your characters at will). Luckily there are mods to fix that (I use mods to allow a party of six in DOS games and also double the number of enemies per encounter to keep the game interesting). The "6manparty" and "increased party" mods have 30K downloads only in steamworkshop so I think many people like it too.

A party of 5 will be a good middle ground, and improvement but still I prefer 6 or more. But always with the option to go solo for all those solo players over there.

Ed: Typos







Last edited by _Vic_; 11/08/19 08:13 PM.
Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: _Vic_] #654680
11/08/19 08:28 PM
11/08/19 08:28 PM
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Danielbda Offline OP
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Danielbda  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Albeit I love western CRPG games, as a hardcore fan of strategy games, I always found the fact that you can only use one stack of 6 soldiers at the same time pretty limited. I know in most RPGs you can recruit and switch party members and I appreciate that but I always felt constricted by the number of companions and classes you can use in the same run or at the same time. So a party of four will be a great downside for me.

I like to recruit all characters possible, keep all my recruits leveled up and equipped, switch party members to suit my needs whenever I want and also I like to see the dialogs of the characters in several places, watch different party interactions, etc.

That was not the case in DOS2 games. they decided to limit the number of your party members to 4, limited greatly the party interactions and they made switching difficult (but you can respec your characters at will). Luckily there are mods to fix that (I use mods to allow a party of six in DOS games and also double the number of enemies per encounter to keep the game interesting). The "6manparty" and "increased party" mods have 30K downloads only in steamworkshop so I think many people like it too.

A party of 5 will be a good middle ground, and improvement but still I prefer 6 or more. But always with the option to go solo for all those solo players over there.

Ed: Typos







I think it'll likely be either 4 or 5, because of the way challenge rating is calculated in 5e. It assumes that you have 4 players of the same level of the challgenge rating of the listed enemy.
But if they allow a companion of each class it'll total 12, so you'll probably be able to "store" the ones you are not using and switch your companions whenever you want.

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654691
12/08/19 05:22 AM
12/08/19 05:22 AM
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Artagel Offline
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Originally Posted by Danielbda
I think it'll likely be either 4 or 5, because of the way challenge rating is calculated in 5e. It assumes that you have 4 players of the same level of the challgenge rating of the listed enemy.
But if they allow a companion of each class it'll total 12, so you'll probably be able to "store" the ones you are not using and switch your companions whenever you want.

Why make a major change to the gameplay everyone is used to instead of simply increasing the "challenge rating" to account for 6?

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Artagel] #654692
12/08/19 09:38 AM
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Hawke Online content
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Originally Posted by Artagel
Originally Posted by Danielbda
I think it'll likely be either 4 or 5, because of the way challenge rating is calculated in 5e. It assumes that you have 4 players of the same level of the challgenge rating of the listed enemy.
But if they allow a companion of each class it'll total 12, so you'll probably be able to "store" the ones you are not using and switch your companions whenever you want.

Why make a major change to the gameplay everyone is used to instead of simply increasing the "challenge rating" to account for 6?


Because most developers design for casuals and they think having too many party members makes the game too complex for them.

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Hawke] #654698
12/08/19 02:20 PM
12/08/19 02:20 PM
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kanisatha Offline
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Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by Artagel
Originally Posted by Danielbda
I think it'll likely be either 4 or 5, because of the way challenge rating is calculated in 5e. It assumes that you have 4 players of the same level of the challgenge rating of the listed enemy.
But if they allow a companion of each class it'll total 12, so you'll probably be able to "store" the ones you are not using and switch your companions whenever you want.

Why make a major change to the gameplay everyone is used to instead of simply increasing the "challenge rating" to account for 6?


Because most developers design for casuals and they think having too many party members makes the game too complex for them.

Yup. It's also the real reason why the game will be TB, because RTwP in the context of a cRPG is too complicated and too challenging for most gamers. Everything that can be made easier and simpler for people will be made so, from getting rid of misses to simplified spellcasting to smaller party to handle to TB combat. It's the only way to sell more than a few hundred thousand units.

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654701
12/08/19 03:13 PM
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_Vic_ Offline
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POE2 can attest to that. Oversimplification of the rules can cater to a more larger audience, look at skyrim in comparison with previous games. But I do not think it works well with D&D games, because you can do horrid games like sword coast legends.

TB could also make more manageable big fights with a high amount of units, I do not know why they do not exploit that to make more massive battles with more complex mechanics instead of reducing soldier numbers and (excuse the expression, but I do not know how else to say it) dumb-down the mechanics. It is not like the game engine cannot handle it in games like DOS: there are mods that can do that. So it is a conscient decision of the devs to simplify the game.

Even in a 2002 D&D simulator like NWN2 you can have fights of parties with 10 cohorts vs a double amount of numbers without much hassle. In RTwP. Or the massive battles vs hordes of goblins/undead in Targos (IWD2).

D&D5e simplified a lot of rules, like proficiences, skillchecks with the tools, DCs, etc so it wouldn´t be such a hassle to put it into a videogame. It was far worse to translate 4e and look at the magnificent Pathfinder:kingmaker. The only excuse they could say ist that they want to cater to a more casual audience as you said. But if it is the case you can make a normal mode and a core rules mode, like in NWN. Other games like forged in blood or pathfinder also allow you to change some rules if you do not like them, still allowing us, veterans or people that like to play hard; to play with the pnp ruleset.



I prefer RTwP for tradition, but I played plenty of good games in TB, so It does not matter much to me either way.


Last edited by _Vic_; 12/08/19 03:16 PM.
Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: _Vic_] #654704
12/08/19 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
TB could also make more manageable big fights with a high amount of units, I do not know why they do not exploit that to make more massive battles with more complex mechanics instead of reducing soldier numbers

Sorry but this part I very strongly disagree with. TB combat under the best of circumstances is ridiculously slow and cumbersome. If I had to suffer through a big battle in a TB system, whether "big" is the quantity of combatants or the quantity of hit points of the enemy, that would automatically disqualify the game for me.

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654711
13/08/19 12:58 AM
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_Vic_ Offline
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I play strategy and tactical games, so I am used to play large battles with plenty of units in tb in large maps, lasting over 100 turns and I do not find that slow or cumbersome in the slightest. I actually like that.

But those are strategy games, I understand that is not suitable for traditional rpg games, nor it has to because they are different type of games.

I do not expect to find a total war or Fire emblem battlemap in BG3, but battles of more than 5 turns would be welcome (In pathfinder, for example, most of the random encounters do not last more than 4 turns if you have a kineticist, same as 80% of the fights in BG1). TOEE and Pool of Radiance offered interesting TB D&D fights. A pity those games were so short and with a low number of classes/races available.

Those random encounters you also usually win using auto-attack without doing anything, not issuing a single order. I understand that is the core of adventure, you get xp an loot. Most devs use this to increase game time. But It would be nice to have less inconsequential and repetitive encounters and more difficult fights.
One thing I like of DOS games is that you do not have 2 equal fights in the entire game: every skirmish is unique because you have different enemies or different terrain. I hope they repeat the formula.




Last edited by _Vic_; 13/08/19 01:17 AM.
Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654715
13/08/19 09:51 AM
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Even major battle in 5e don't last even close to 100 turns.

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654717
13/08/19 10:25 AM
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_Vic_ Offline
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Yeah, because it is D&D, nor Axis and allies or Warhammer. They are a different type of games.

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Danielbda] #654767
17/08/19 02:16 PM
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Oh man.
Are we at that point where "RTWP is for big brain high IQ people" keeps getting repeated by the same 3 users ad nauseum to satisfy some deep insecurity?

I for one am playing Spellforce 3 right now, fun little game, basically RTWP combat without the "pause" part (for the most part at least), not exactly challengign my noggin so far tho.

Either way, im tired of all the "muh casualization", Larian isnt exactly known to do this.
You cannot apply a one size fits all approach with the gaming industry.

If anyhting, bitch at WOTC for dumbing down DnD

Re: [DEVS PLEASE READ] Suggestions for BG3 [Re: Hawke] #654803
19/08/19 06:47 AM
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Artagel Offline
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Originally Posted by Hawke
Because most developers design for casuals and they think having too many party members makes the game too complex for them.

OK.... so you're going to anger the built in BG audience that expects 6 party members in order to try and build a new base of casual fans?

Sounds like an amateur start up company who doesn't do the research before they release.

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