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Please stop Balancing/Nerfing #655550
16/09/19 11:23 AM
16/09/19 11:23 AM
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Hajfi Offline OP
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Hajfi  Offline OP
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Hello,

Divinity Original sin 2 is an absolutely excellent game.. Please stop changing it

Please stop nerfing and balancing the game. RPG games are about imbalance, overcoming a vastly superior foe or punishing a lesser, or being thoroughly outmatched but still having a chance to persevere. It mainly is about choices.. if all outcomes are more or less the same there are no real choices. Balanced games tend to be generic, simple and not unique. Larian’s breakout game I presume was Dos 1, and one of the things that signifies it was that it was VERY unbalanced.. Mcdonalds shouldn't do vegan fine dining.. Let EA handle generic crap that they re-release 14 times

The more choices you have the more imbalanced it will be, a good RPG game is about have a good type of imbalance, like interesting unique, satisfying skills, weapons and companions and not “if you put all your points in dexterity no enemy can hit you by level 12”. People who truly enjoy RPG games will play the way they want; an uphill battle can be rewarding a downhill fun and a confidence boost.. As long as you have more difficulty settings you can just switch it around. And dos tactician should be a challenge for most. Do what you must but don’t make all classes, weapons the same or even roughly the same. There should be a BEST in the game, at least that’s my opinion. You can balance that weapon with story if you want e.g. rep loss, companion loss or what have you. When a spell is innately bad or good it brings character to the game and the world comes alive. Lore-wise one could also assume one class might be better than others too and that's ok, I wouldn't mind if say Mages were the most powerful classes even though I rarely play mage.

People advocating that all classes skills should be about the same must be trolls. If all class skills are about as good there is no point in having different classes other than for cosmetic reasons. It is ok for one class to be more powerful in a (mostly) single player game. It is fun to discover insane combos of skills though I might not even use them. Many RPGers want to break the game. The more scaling, balancing et cetera the more you take away from the game.. by the end of it, it is just clicking the buttons. you will have a equality-based, harmless, plain, smooth game that will automatically play itself. That was why pillars of eternity was disappointing and Dragon age 3 was absolutely dreadful. Why would you nerf weapons? it is ok if everyone is running around using Crom Fayer or whatever. it's fun if plenty weapons have good uses but if there is one best weapon so be it don’t nerf it, I know I would attribute story elements to that weapon because you decided it was the best, many players would think it was mysterious, but then when you go and change the weapon it loses all its mystery because... apparently it was just a mistake on the devs side..

I know I'm a huge nerd but there are very few sincerely good games today.


The Dos series are one of the few enjoyable games today.. it's unique.. don't change that. I am also writing because of Baldur's Gate my favourite game all time. Dos 2 has already dumbed down stats but has improved other aspects. Game mechanic-wise I preferred dos 1 but 2 is still a very good game. Just don't continue down the path of trying to please the mass, go your own way. The mass of people are like children, they are loud, dont know what they want and they will always be crying over something. I do not include myself in this group as this is the first forum post i have made in 10 years and im not crying over what I want but what I do not want.

Best of luck with Baldur's Gate

Last edited by Hajfi; 16/09/19 11:25 AM. Reason: extra word
Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655551
16/09/19 02:55 PM
16/09/19 02:55 PM
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Stabbey Offline
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RPG systems are complicated and an have unexpected and unanticipated reactions with each other, and especially in a game with as much freedom to build a party as DOS 2 offers. Balance is not really something you can get perfect on your first attempt. You say that you think Dos 2 is an "absolutely excellent game", but it did not start out like that, unchanged from the first iteration. What you call excellent is the result of thousands and thousands of small balance changes, the majority of which the players never even knew happened because the developers caught them in design, testing, and internal implementation without the players ever getting to see them.

"Making all skills the same" is a strawman argument which no one is suggesting. An RPG should have a variety of viable approaches to a situation, and making sure all skills have some reasonable use is a good thing. Skills can be quantified in DOS 2, because all skills use 1-4 AP. Regular attacks cost 2 AP, most damaging skills cost 2 AP, high-power skills cost 3 AP, really high-power Source skills cost up to 4 AP. Physical skills are described as dealing XX% of weapon damage. This makes it fairly simple to do total damage per AP calculations. This is a simplification, because many skills have extra effects which could be more (or less) useful depending on the situation, but it's a good place to start when comparing skills.


For instance, take the Huntsman skill "Assassinate". It costs 3 AP and deals 115% weapon damage, with an additional 50% for attacking while in stealth. 3 AP is 1.5 standard attacks, so for the skill to break even, it should deal a total damage of 150% weapon damage. You could use it from outside combat for the extra 50% damage, but that costs 0 AP, so it doesn't count. 115 is less than 150, so therefore using Assassinate while not in stealth is not worthwhile. (If you only have 3 AP left, you'll need to whip out a calculator to be sure you can kill an enemy even on the low end of the damage range.) So that brings us to the case of using Assassinate while Stealthed. We'll only talk about the in-combat use, because out-of-combat is free. Chameleon Cloak or a potion cost 1 AP, so Invisibility + Assassinate costs 4 AP. Sneak costs 3 AP, so Sneak + Assassinate = 6 AP. 3 regular attacks deal 300% damage, so that is the break-even point for Assassinate. However, whether the sneak bonus is additive (115 + 50 = 165) or multiplicative (115 * 1.5 = 172.5),the result is still less damage than 2 normal attacks (200%). Therefore, the skill Assassinate is not worth using in combat unless the base damage were to be increased from 115% to 150%.

Unfortunately, the problem is complicated by that the freedom to flee combat and return means that buffing Assassinate's in-combat effectiveness will also buff it's out-of-combat effectiveness and allow it to be exploited by running away while the rest of the party is in combat, coming back in Sneak mode, then Assassinating again once the cooldown is off. This skill is balanced around the possibility of it being used outside of combat.



You talk about having some powerful unique weapons which have a high cost or take a lot of effort to get. DOS 2 has the weapon Anathema. To get that you need to complete two quests in Reaper's coast to find it, even then it takes a long time before you get your hands on it, Tarquin has to stay alive the whole time, and when you get it, it's a piece of junk. It can only be used once. It's intended to be used on the final boss as a big mega-damage ultimate weapon. It's been built up all game, and it barely does anything to him. Considering the AP cost for switching weapons, it's possible that it's actually LESS useful than sticking with your original weapon and never using it at all. That is a balance issue, though, so by your rule, it should not be fixed.

Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655555
16/09/19 04:24 PM
16/09/19 04:24 PM
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Hajfi Offline OP
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Your arguments are valid Stabbey,

As I stated dos 2 is an excellent game and in my opinion not too balanced. I also, of course believe in some balancing (strawman argument?) even though a game like Arcanum is still one of my personal favourites. Bugs or obvious mistakes can be balanced in my subjective opinion as well as some additional adjustments, however not frequently and not arbitrarily.

The "all skills should be roughly the same" is taken from people in this very forum and not something I just threw out. User CatR among others (i will not provide further quotes search the forum):
"Because when all abilities are roughly around the same power level every ability is satisfying, rather than just a handful abilities or tactics which are disproportionally powerful."

I don't know exactly what you are getting at with assassinate.. I am not updated on all patch notes.. I understand how balancing works. I assume assassinate has been tweaked? I'm sure the balancing was executed correctly but as I have been trying to state.. My opinion is that the game should not be more balanced. Larian changing assassinate makes for another skill that is more tinted towards the normal strength level of the average skill. Which in extension will make all skills viable and if all skills are viable they are most likely similar, or in the least it won’t matter much which skills you use.
If you extrapolate it, it means that the difference one skill from another is its name.

Yes but the Issue is... that the sword is too balanced! The sword was probably too strong in alpha and they chose to play it safe and nerf it. I can be pro making after release changes to lessen the balance sure. As long as they are done responsibly with such a great game as this.

Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655561
16/09/19 09:02 PM
16/09/19 09:02 PM
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Did you only play the game recently? If so, then as Stabbey pointed out, what you played is the result of countless of balance changes. The hypothetical question is, if you were to play the release version of DOS2, would you say that it has better balance than the current version of DOS2DE?

There's the good kind of imbalances and the bad kind of imbalances. The bad ones *need* to be fixed - that's part of improving the game. I don't suppose you know what Bone Widow was like before they nerfed it?

I don't think you have to worry about the game running out of imbalanced stuff though. There's a thread around here somewhere that lists a number of things considered "broken" in DOS2. I haven't kept myself up to date with all the DE changes for some time, but I rather doubt they have "fixed" every single one of those.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Unfortunately, the problem is complicated by that the freedom to flee combat and return means that buffing Assassinate's in-combat effectiveness will also buff it's out-of-combat effectiveness and allow it to be exploited by running away while the rest of the party is in combat, coming back in Sneak mode, then Assassinating again once the cooldown is off. This skill is balanced around the possibility of it being used outside of combat.

Not to start an off-topic mechanic argument, but would anyone bother to use Assassinate in such a way? That's a lot of extra work - flee, return from waypoint, sneak, wait for cooldown - just to squeeze out a tiny bit of extra damage. If you already resort to the "flee / return / land free hits / repeat" strat, there are plenty of skills that are WAY better. In fact, whether it is in combat or out of combat, there's just no reason to use this skill instead of Ballistic Shot. The only situation in which a skill like this would actually be useful is when you really need to finish off an enemy when you have 3 AP left, and that 15% extra damage is just enough for you to pull that off. But then, you could also just pop a potion of Finesse or cast Peace of Mind on yourself, then basic attack, and would achieve the same thing.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 16/09/19 09:09 PM.

"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655562
16/09/19 09:16 PM
16/09/19 09:16 PM
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Stabbey Offline
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Originally Posted by Hajfi
The "all skills should be roughly the same" is taken from people in this very forum and not something I just threw out. User CatR among others (i will not provide further quotes search the forum):
"Because when all abilities are roughly around the same power level every ability is satisfying, rather than just a handful abilities or tactics which are disproportionally powerful."


"roughly around the same power level" is not "the same". I also do not see the problem if in a game "every ability is satisfying". That's a good thing, in my opinion, a sign of good balance.


Quote
I don't know exactly what you are getting at with assassinate.. I am not updated on all patch notes.. I understand how balancing works. I assume assassinate has been tweaked? I'm sure the balancing was executed correctly but as I have been trying to state.


I do not believe that Assassinate has been tweaked to be better. I disagree with you that "balancing was executed correctly" for the Assassinate skill. That was what I was getting at. It costs too much AP for the effect. Assassinate is inferior in damage compared to using a normal attack twice. It is a very niche skill which is only useful as an opening move or by the cheesy "flee combat and return" playstyle.

Quote
Larian changing assassinate makes for another skill that is more tinted towards the normal strength level of the average skill. Which in extension will make all skills viable and if all skills are viable they are most likely similar, or in the least it won’t matter much which skills you use.


Please explain what benefit is there for anyone when a game has skills which are not viable? That idea is the cornerstone of your whole premise, and it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

The game developers do not benefit because they spend time and resources developing a skill which players won't use. The players don't benefit because they don't use the skill which is bad.

Quote
Yes but the Issue is... that the sword is too balanced!


I disagree. It is not balanced because it is underpowered for the amount of time and effort it takes to acquire it.

Last edited by Stabbey; 17/09/19 12:41 AM. Reason: rephrasing a little
Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Stabbey] #655578
17/09/19 10:32 AM
17/09/19 10:32 AM
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Hajfi Offline OP
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Hajfi  Offline OP
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Thank you Try2Handing,

Good input! I agree with your comment.
I don't think they have over-balanced it, it's more of a waiver for the future:)


Stabbey,

Yes, that's why i stated, "about the same" or "roughly the same" which you can see clearly in my text

You are not understanding what I am writing, and you are arguing with something I have not said. I will try to clarify for you. I do not know what changes were made to assassinate and I assumed they were well executed, but if you say they were not I believe you. If you are right that is another argument for not intervening.. it can ruin more than it fixes

If certain skills are considered the best for a given situation other similar skills are deemed less viable. Now hopefully most skills serve a purpose or can be niche skills at the least, but I can't say I mind some gimmicky skills. It adds to the world if well executed. It is when the developers go the extra mile you have a game like this.

It is balanced compared to the other weapons.. however, I agree with you and I stated that balancing with story is a good way to go and in my mind the weapon should probably be stronger

Stabbey, I feel you are acting contrarian and arguing for the sake of arguing with these statements. I have made my case, this is how I feel about it and you are not qualified to change my mind.

Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655580
17/09/19 12:38 PM
17/09/19 12:38 PM
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Stabbey Offline
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Originally Posted by Hajfi

You are not understanding what I am writing, and you are arguing with something I have not said. I will try to clarify for you. I do not know what changes were made to assassinate and I assumed they were well executed, but if you say they were not I believe you. If you are right that is another argument for not intervening.. it can ruin more than it fixes


You're not understanding me. Assassinate has not been changed. It is still bad. It's not an argument for "not intervening". It is an argument FOR intervening.


Quote
Stabbey, I feel you are acting contrarian and arguing for the sake of arguing with these statements. I have made my case, this is how I feel about it and you are not qualified to change my mind.


Saying that I am only arguing for the sake of being contrary implies that you believe that I secretly agree with you.

That is not the case. I am arguing with you because I do not agree with your opinion because your opinion does not make sense. You are basing that on a game which has had probably thousands of changes made for the sake of balance to get to the state which you are praising and saying, in essence "this does not need more balance changes". It could not possibly have reached that state without the kind of balance changes you are arguing shouldn't be done.

Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655587
17/09/19 05:44 PM
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I think we can interpret OP's opinion as he believes in its *current* state the game is excellent and it doesn't need any further balance changes. It's his opinion. He wasn't trying to say that past balance changes were unnecessary.

That said, this game has always been more in need of "buffs" than "nerfs". AFAIK, it was always the things that were blatantly underpowered / useless that really bugged players, and not the overpowered things. Since you seem concerned about things getting nerfed too much, I'm telling you, there's no need to worry.


"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655594
18/09/19 03:56 AM
18/09/19 03:56 AM
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Stabbey Offline
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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
I think we can interpret OP's opinion as he believes in its *current* state the game is excellent and it doesn't need any further balance changes. It's his opinion. He wasn't trying to say that past balance changes were unnecessary.


Except someone you could say that about any patch. It's completely subjective for everyone if the game is in a perfect state. I suspect that there have been at least some balance changes the OP did like and did agree with for the game to get to the state where they didn't want it changed. The big change of course, being the Definitive Edition capping of Lone Wolf combat ability and attribute points at the same level as non-LW.

Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655651
19/09/19 05:22 PM
19/09/19 05:22 PM
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Hajfi Offline OP
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Thank you Try2Handing for your sound advice that is reassuring to hear

And Stabbey I see your reasoning but we have different opinions.

As for my intent it is much like you say Try2Handing but also in going forward.
I believe to see a trend in gaming and a minor trend going from dos1 -> dos 2 where dos 2 is significantly more balanced. Now some of that was for the better and I don't have an issue with it, but if it would be the same difference between dos 2 and perhaps a dos3 that might be a problem.

So really it is intended to highlight the issue for Larian’s coming games, mostly BG3.

Part two of the equation is, there is something special about a static state of a game (bugs aside). For arguments sake I will assume everyone has played Baldur's Gate:

For those who have, everyone knows Magic Missile is a kickass level 1 Spell. If balancing would have continued throughout BGs history chances are it would have been nerfed (or other spells AND spell-levels buffed).. after a while most level one spells would be of similar power level. Which in the end would mean all level 1 spells would be slightly worse than level 2 spells. Level 2 spells would be below level 3 and so forth..
On top of this the mages spells would also be balanced with ALL other class skills. This is not exciting or enticing, no one would know Magic missile is the shit and infravision is crap. It is wonderful when you have a VERY powerful spell at level 5 for instance, even better than many spells of higher level. And it is also interesting that maybe some spell levels don't really have much going on.. maybe mostly situational or niche spells.

With your reasoning Stabbey, assassinate would just be buffed to be closer to the average strength level of the average skill. And thusly it would blend in with many of the already tan blended skills -> Dystopia scenario: "do you want to use one of your three skills in this fight.. they have different colours".
My way of thinking is that it is just a bad skill, use it or don't.. Maybe it can be effective in some very specific case if not I still don't care. Basically, asking for a balancing on assassinate is that you just want to nag about something. Like when very very very old ladies complain about the weather

If a game is balanced ALL skills are as good as one another, adjusted for level (even if higher spells sometimes also have higher costs). That is what it means for a game to be balanced.. Everything is equally good. Soooo the more balanced a game is the more similar classes, skills, choices are. And with a game like this, that is not reliant on reflexed, aim, multitasking or effectively outlaid key bindings... Choices is all the game has.

But to each his own I just don't like it

Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #655653
19/09/19 06:29 PM
19/09/19 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hajfi

With your reasoning Stabbey, assassinate would just be buffed to be closer to the average strength level of the average skill. And thusly it would blend in with many of the already tan blended skills -> Dystopia scenario: "do you want to use one of your three skills in this fight.. they have different colours".


Saying that the only difference between skills is the color of the spell is a strawman argument. Especially considering Larian's history. For DOS 1's Enhanced Edition, Larian rebalanced the game by removing a bunch of skills which were not unique enough (Feather Fall vs Teleport) and establishing each school as having unique access to certain status effects (Only the Scoundrel line had Bleeding, for instance)

Skill A and Skill B can have the exact same base damage, but if Skill A sets Shocked Status and Skill B sets poisoned status, those have two different roles.

Even under that criteria, though, Assassinate is just plain bad. Compare it to another single-target skill, Ballistic Shot:

Assassinate (Huntsman 3, 3 AP, 5 CD) deals 115% damage unstealthed and 165% damage stealthed.
Ballistic Shot (Huntsman 2, 2 AP, 4 CD) deals 100% damage, plus 5% damage per meter between you and the target.

Ballistic Shot equals Assassinate's unstealthed damage at a distance of only 3 meters from the target - practically melee range. When stealthed, Ballistic Shot equals Assassinate's damage at a distance of 13 meters, which is well within bow range even on flat ground.

Ballistic Shot requires 1 less point into Huntsman, is available 7 levels before Assassinate, costs 1 less AP and has 1 turn less cooldown. Nothing is preventing Ballistic Shot from being used 13+ meters away or in Stealth. There is absolutely no niche at all Assassinate fills which Ballistic Shot does not fill equally well or better.

Or take the Air skill "Apportation", which teleports items into the player's inventory. I can't even think of any use for such a useless skill.


Quote
My way of thinking is that it is just a bad skill, use it or don't.. Maybe it can be effective in some very specific case if not I still don't care. Basically, asking for a balancing on assassinate is that you just want to nag about something. Like when very very very old ladies complain about the weather


You don't care that Assassinate is bad. Fine. I don't care about your absurd nagging about the idea that "balancing always = bad" or your stupid idea that having bad skills in the game is a good thing.


Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #656333
19/10/19 11:22 PM
19/10/19 11:22 PM
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miaasma Offline
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i'm wondering if you two are working with different definitions of "imbalance"?

personally, i totally agree with stabbey - having skills in the game that are almost never worth using contributes to nobody's experience and only narrows possible strategies by making it strictly disadvantageous to use certain skills over others; assassinate is a perfect example, deep freeze is another (4 AP for its effect is a complete joke, that's the same amount of AP that most tier 3 source spells cost and those spells are exponentially more worthwhile, even with the source cost)

but to your point, i understand that you want there to be options that aren't considered "optimal" in order to not make the game feel like a breeze. truth be told, that isn't really for the developers to decide. if i feel like a challenge, i'll run sub-optimal builds like hybrid characters with split stats, since that's much less effective than a pure mage or warrior or rogue, but can add fun flavour to the experience. if you want to play in a way that isn't the most strategically sound then that's on the individual player to decide. i don't think this really has anything to do with improving certain skills that aren't of any real use to players under normal circumstances, and i think improving those skills will only lead to more different and fun builds that can be run on tactician or honour mode

in short, if you want to intentionally make subpar decisions to make the game harder for yourself then that's fine, and doing so will always be possible regardless of where "balance" goes. however, i do think larian should continue to update this game and make more skills and options viable for players

edit: accidentally posted this halfway through, oops

Last edited by miaasma; 19/10/19 11:29 PM.
Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: Hajfi] #657292
26/11/19 07:28 AM
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"Just to add my 2 cents"...
I agree with the majority of the points made here.
What I HATE most about Rebalancing/Nerfing is when Spells no longer work as expected or as described!

Re: Please stop Balancing/Nerfing [Re: miaasma] #657350
28/11/19 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by miaasma
i'm wondering if you two are working with different definitions of "imbalance"?

p


That's what I was thinking; perhaps "balanced" should be defined?


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