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Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: kanisatha] #657254
25/11/19 04:37 PM
25/11/19 04:37 PM
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vometia Offline

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
I actually agree with much of what you say here. That's what brings us right back to where all of this discussion started: the name of the game. To restate my point, if you're going to make a new game that significantly deviates from earlier games in a franchise, you should give it a new name, exactly like what Obsidian did by calling their game Fallout: New Vegas, and exactly how Larian itself did with its own franchise by calling their new game Divinity: Original Sin rather than Divinity 3. To have called Divinity: Original Sin Divinity 3 would have been false advertising, in my view.

I sort of see the point, though IMHO games, sequels and pretty much everything should use names and drop the numbering scheme as implies so many things, many of which are contradictory. Is it a continuation, a rehash, in the spirit of, the next book rather than the next chapter (which is what I sort of meant by continuation)...? Giving it a name might help stop those preconceptions. I tend to adapt after that initial "but that's not what I was expecting" but I can rant about it in the meantime. Then again, no matter what it's called you will get people who will assume and then object forever, e.g. TES:IV Oblivion being lambasted for not being TES:III Morrowind Part II in spite of the fact that it never said it was going to be and the name didn't imply anything other than it being the next Elder Scrolls game.

I'm also thinking that Larian's numbering scheme is... well, it's its own thing. Divinity 2 is really Divinity 3 given that it was the third in the series, and also chronologically; and is it called Divinity 2 or Divinity II or Ego Draconis or Dragon Knight Saga? Then there's the also often overlooked Dragon Commander, which is also part of the franchise and arguably part of the series depending on how you define "series" and classify Dragon Commander, though chronologically it suddenly deviates. And Original Sin which is therefore sort of Divinity 5 except that it's positioned between DC and DD in terms of when it happened, so maybe Divinity -1, or Divinity 0 depending on one's opinion of such things. And let's not get started on Divinity Original Sin II which is not Divinity 2, it's Divinity 6, unless we're going by chronology with DD being the first so it's... I dunno, I've lost track. What it before or after BD? If it was before, maybe it really is Divinity 2, which would make Divinity 2 Divinity 4. My head hurts.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657259
25/11/19 05:26 PM
25/11/19 05:26 PM
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That run-down gave me a good giggle, Vometia! Thank you. It's funny because it's true.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: vometia] #657318
26/11/19 03:22 PM
26/11/19 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by kanisatha
I actually agree with much of what you say here. That's what brings us right back to where all of this discussion started: the name of the game. To restate my point, if you're going to make a new game that significantly deviates from earlier games in a franchise, you should give it a new name, exactly like what Obsidian did by calling their game Fallout: New Vegas, and exactly how Larian itself did with its own franchise by calling their new game Divinity: Original Sin rather than Divinity 3. To have called Divinity: Original Sin Divinity 3 would have been false advertising, in my view.

I sort of see the point, though IMHO games, sequels and pretty much everything should use names and drop the numbering scheme as implies so many things, many of which are contradictory. Is it a continuation, a rehash, in the spirit of, the next book rather than the next chapter (which is what I sort of meant by continuation)...? Giving it a name might help stop those preconceptions. I tend to adapt after that initial "but that's not what I was expecting" but I can rant about it in the meantime. Then again, no matter what it's called you will get people who will assume and then object forever, e.g. TES:IV Oblivion being lambasted for not being TES:III Morrowind Part II in spite of the fact that it never said it was going to be and the name didn't imply anything other than it being the next Elder Scrolls game.

Yup, we're pretty much on the same page. I think numbering is ok, and even necessary, for certain types of games where the new game is just a new iteration of the previous games, for example Civilization. Maybe also Final Fantasy. Imagine trying to keep track of which game is which if FF did not have numbers? But for the classic RPG genre in particular, where making the (largely) same game again is generally avoided, numbering should therefore also be avoided, the only exception being for games that are literally direct sequels.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Raze] #657339
27/11/19 06:20 PM
27/11/19 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Raze

You mean the interview by a Malaysian game site about the new branch studio in Malaysia, where they asked about that studio, the work process, release platforms, advice for indie developers, D:OS 2, Fallen Heroes / DOS: 3 and BG3?

Precisely! As far as I could tell from the video clip, no one was holding a gun to Swen's head forcing him to speak on BG3. I am merely reacting to something he said that came across as disrespectful to me.

Originally Posted by Raze

If you can not accurately summarise what someone has said, or the interview in which it was said, nobody is going to take your speculation on motives seriously (even if it wasn't self evidently ridiculous).

Look, if you don't think there's anything wrong or iffy with the way his statement on fan expectations was worded then, by all means, carry on. Next time have Swen say "over 75% of our fans have an IQ score that is lower than 100". Heck, why not put it on a billboard so people driving by can marvel at the astute observation. It may very well be a factually correct statement but self-evidently pointing that out would make Larian a ridiculous company that is begging people to boycott its products.

Originally Posted by Raze

You admitted that what he said about some of the highest expectations being unreasonable is literally true, so why are you still complaining about that?

As a general rule, games are announced without a lot of detail. While some games are announced late in the development process, sometimes it can be years with only an occasional bit of news or screenshots, etc. Then information starts being released leading up to the game's release (or sometimes there are delays, engine changes, studio/publisher issues, projects cancelled, etc).
Why are you acting like this is somehow unique to BG3?

That sounds like an appeal to the majority. Am I to understand Larian wants to be more like EA, Activision, Blizzard and the lot? Unless I am mistaken you take pride in being an independent (self-made) studio. Regardless, it's not the lack of new info that is bothering me but the implication that fans are somehow disrupting the development process, which you assure us is not the case. I would like to believe you but because of the aforementioned dearth it's hard to get confirmation so I'll just have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Raze

I doubt very many gaming sites outside Malaysian will be particularly interested in doing an interview about the studio there (it may come up in questions about workflow, etc). If there is an interview specifically about BG3, there should be more information about it. Every interview anyone asks for about other things, where they bring up BG3, is not going to get new information about the game.

Okay, that's a fair point. If you follow the original hyperlink you will see that IGN has tagged and headlined the article as being related to BG3. You could argue it's clickbait in a way.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: kanisatha] #657340
27/11/19 06:33 PM
27/11/19 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by korotama
As Raze has pointed out, new information is coming soon so hopefully the next interview will not be a repeat of this one.

That won't help. You and I both know that what will happen is the goalposts will be shifted. No matter how much we get to know about the game, and obviously eventually we will know everything about the game, critics like us will be mob-attacked and told we are wrong, we don't know anything, our preferences don't matter, and we need to change our attitude and get with the conformity.

As far as I am concerned, if BG3 does not look and feel and play like the first two games, then it is a fake and a fraud and an insult to the fans of the original games. And I will keep on hammering this point no matter how many people in this forum try to shut me up.


I'm glad we're on the same page here. Personally, I believe you can hold true to the "feel and play" of the original games while taking creative risks. We're just here to remind people the franchise is already well-established and doesn't warrant a radical shift in direction or design. That is what struggling IPs are supposed to do. Also, for the sake of your health and well-being, prithee don't get too worked up or lose sleep over BG3's development. It's not worth it.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657341
27/11/19 06:52 PM
27/11/19 06:52 PM
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I'm more than happy for there to be another Baldur's Gate game, but given the statements from the team and their previous work I assume it'll be more like "Divinity : Forgotten Realms" with all that entails. I'll play it regardless, most likely, but it's not going to be satisfying to people who actually wanted something resembling Baldur's Gate.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657345
27/11/19 11:01 PM
27/11/19 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by korotama
As Raze has pointed out, new information is coming soon so hopefully the next interview will not be a repeat of this one.

That won't help. You and I both know that what will happen is the goalposts will be shifted. No matter how much we get to know about the game, and obviously eventually we will know everything about the game, critics like us will be mob-attacked and told we are wrong, we don't know anything, our preferences don't matter, and we need to change our attitude and get with the conformity.

As far as I am concerned, if BG3 does not look and feel and play like the first two games, then it is a fake and a fraud and an insult to the fans of the original games. And I will keep on hammering this point no matter how many people in this forum try to shut me up.


I'm glad we're on the same page here. Personally, I believe you can hold true to the "feel and play" of the original games while taking creative risks. We're just here to remind people the franchise is already well-established and doesn't warrant a radical shift in direction or design. That is what struggling IPs are supposed to do. Also, for the sake of your health and well-being, prithee don't get too worked up or lose sleep over BG3's development. It's not worth it.

smile
Not really caring that much about BG3. I'm quite convinced it'll be a lousy D:OS-esque game pretending to be a BG game. If I'm right, no problem because right now I have a ton of awesome games available to (re)play, from already released games like PoE1 and 2, P:K, BG 1 and 2 EE, IwD EE, DA:I, TW3, Disco Elysium, etc., to games coming in the future such as Realms Beyond, Solasta, Black Geyser, Dark Eye: Book of Heroes, the second Pathfinder game, at least two new games from Obsidian, DA 4, the next Witcher game, Starfield from Bethesda, and on and on. So no shortage of great games for me to play. And if I'm wrong about BG3, I don't have any ego invested in any of these debates so I will happily admit I was wrong and go play the game. It's all a win-win as far as I am concerned.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657346
28/11/19 02:27 AM
28/11/19 02:27 AM
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Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Legion of Doom - Dungeons and Dragons online - server Orion -
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Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657362
28/11/19 12:00 PM
28/11/19 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by korotama
Look, if you don't think there's anything wrong or iffy with the way his statement on fan expectations was worded then, by all means, carry on.

If you have any conviction that there is something wrong with the statement, why do you feel the need to repeatedly mischaracterized it?


Originally Posted by korotama
That sounds like an appeal to the majority.

Describing reality accurately is not an appeal to anything, except maybe common sense.

Originally Posted by korotama
Am I to understand Larian wants to be more like EA, Activision, Blizzard and the lot? Unless I am mistaken you take pride in being an independent (self-made) studio.

If the entire entertainment industry follows the same general pattern of releasing information leading up to release, pointing out that 3 specific companies do the same thing and somehow this means Larian wants to be more like those companies is ridiculous.

Divine Divinity, Beyond Divinity, Divinity 2, Dragon Commander, D:OS, D:OS 2.
Guess how information was released for each of those games.


Originally Posted by korotama
If you follow the original hyperlink you will see that IGN has tagged and headlined the article as being related to BG3.

It is, though more with the development process than the game itself. The answers to the BG3 questions was information about the design process and scope.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657369
28/11/19 04:48 PM
28/11/19 04:48 PM
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Marketing is not Evil.
Man im alos starved for information. I admit, larian probably threw out the announcement a bit too fast.
But if game developing is taking its time, you cant release footage too early, if you do, people will get hyped, then it doesnt release and they forget about it.

Yeah tripple A studios do that, everyone does. The only people that dont do this is Kickstarter projects, because they cannot.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Sordak] #657381
29/11/19 03:19 AM
29/11/19 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Man im alos starved for information.

I felt the same way about Beyond Divinity, but by the time Divinity 2 came around I had developed more of a zen attitude.

Originally Posted by Sordak
I admit, larian probably threw out the announcement a bit too fast.

Under ideal circumstances waiting may have been better, but then it would not have been included in the Stadia announcement, and there were already rumours of the game's development and a previous leak (though a third hand source, so it didn't gain much traction at the time) that was starting to get more corroboration. I don't know how long it could have been delayed before there would be nothing left to announce.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Raze] #657382
29/11/19 03:36 AM
29/11/19 03:36 AM
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vometia Offline

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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Sordak
I admit, larian probably threw out the announcement a bit too fast.

Under ideal circumstances waiting may have been better, but then it would not have been included in the Stadia announcement, and there were already rumours of the game's development and a previous leak (though a third hand source, so it didn't gain much traction at the time) that was starting to get more corroboration. I don't know how long it could have been delayed before there would be nothing left to announce.

Yeah, my feeling is that this is why they had to announce it when they did: because it was going to be announced for them. A friend of mine was asking about "is Larian doing a new Baldur's Gate?" before any announcement had been made and the games press were already gearing up to make a noise about it, apparently.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657400
29/11/19 02:04 PM
29/11/19 02:04 PM
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Ah yes the Leak from the Spanish site wasnt it?
I remember that beeing posted to 4chan.
Or was that the one where they dog into the site of the teaser and figured out it was BG3 from the filenames?

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Sordak] #657402
29/11/19 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Ah yes the Leak from the Spanish site wasnt it?
I remember that beeing posted to 4chan.
Or was that the one where they dog into the site of the teaser and figured out it was BG3 from the filenames?


Nope, the original leak 2018 came from a user on the RPG Codex. The Baldurs Gate File on the Larian website before E3 was also fist discovered there afaik.

Last edited by Hawke; 29/11/19 04:35 PM.
Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Sordak] #657436
30/11/19 09:35 PM
30/11/19 09:35 PM
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korotama Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Marketing is not Evil.
Man im alos starved for information. I admit, larian probably threw out the announcement a bit too fast.
But if game developing is taking its time, you cant release footage too early, if you do, people will get hyped, then it doesnt release and they forget about it.

Yeah tripple A studios do that, everyone does. The only people that dont do this is Kickstarter projects, because they cannot.


No, it's absolutely not evil, although it is a tool that speaks volumes of its wielder. I beg you to consider the following: If your marketing addresses a widely dispersed global audience, do you base it on the assumption that everyone has exactly the same definition of low, high, good, bad, small, big, short, long etc.? Marketing is supposed to reveal information about your product, not obfuscate it.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657437
30/11/19 09:40 PM
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Marketing is supposed to instill interrest in the product and sell it.
So i think theyre doing pretty well on taht front

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Raze] #657438
30/11/19 09:51 PM
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korotama Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Raze

Describing reality accurately is not an appeal to anything, except maybe common sense.

There is a logical fallacy called "Appeal to Common Sense" too. Obviously what is common sense to you may not be common sense to anyone else. Semantics aside, industry standards aren't exactly high as far as video game development but luckily there have been efforts by some stellar individuals to raise the bar. For instance, some developers keep a development diary letting fans know what features they can look forward to. It boils down to making development less of a black box and engaging your audience in a way that piques their interest.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657440
30/11/19 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by korotama
Marketing is supposed to reveal information about your product, not obfuscate it.


It really isn't supposed to reveal information. It can reveal some new information, which surely could empower it's actual purpose, which is to obtain public interest and hopefully intent to buy said product. Though there is no rule or requirement for marketing to have to / suppose to reveal something new any time marketing takes place. Neither does showing more of what the viewer already know obfuscate anything.

Have you ever watched a movie trailer? If it reveals too much, isn't it then a bad trailer for basically showing you the movie beforehand? No, the trailer is to build up hype and interest. And often just simply to let potential audiences know that it's coming soon™.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Sordak] #657441
30/11/19 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Marketing is supposed to instill interrest in the product and sell it.
So i think theyre doing pretty well on taht front

Yeah, they're knocking it out of the park. *cough*

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: The Composer] #657442
30/11/19 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by korotama
Marketing is supposed to reveal information about your product, not obfuscate it.

Have you ever watched a movie trailer? If it reveals too much, isn't it then a bad trailer for basically showing you the movie beforehand? No, the trailer is to build up hype and interest. And often just simply to let potential audiences know that it's coming soon™.


Yep. Det sjunde inseglet is one of my favorites and the trailer for it shows you a few scenes that take place right before the ending. It was released to critical claim and is considered by many to be a world classic.

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