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Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657443
30/11/19 10:00 PM
30/11/19 10:00 PM
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The Composer Offline

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Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by Raze

Describing reality accurately is not an appeal to anything, except maybe common sense.

There is a logical fallacy called "Appeal to Common Sense" too. Obviously what is common sense to you may not be common sense to anyone else.


Common sense is the same common sense for everyone. That's where the 'common' bit comes in.

Originally Posted by korotama

For instance, some developers keep a development diary letting fans know what features they can look forward to. It boils down to making development less of a black box and engaging your audience in a way that piques their interest.


Larian has done this frequently with their games. In fact, they even posted 52 updates and 16 FAQ entries about it. So I'm not sure entirely what your argument is; Should Larian already have a full feature-creep list of everything planned for BG3, including a tidied out roadmap about the whole process this early in the process?

Even then, please refer to any single academic or legal source online that makes this a fact beyond opinion, that claims marketing should work a certain way in which you're implying (Of which, to be perfectly honest, I have a hard time understanding the logic of. Sorry!)

I'm personally extremely hyped about Halo Infinite, but I'm not pissing myself over not knowing everything about what that game entails. And that's a year away from release, way less time than BG3.



Last edited by The Composer; 30/11/19 10:01 PM.
Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: The Composer] #657444
30/11/19 10:07 PM
30/11/19 10:07 PM
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korotama Offline OP
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Yep, my argument is that Larian provide as much information to people like me as they humanly can if they are going to charge $60 for it. They don't have to spoil the story but even if they did, I'd still buy it if it was a home run. I had spoiled BG1 and 2 for myself and I still beat them and loved them.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657445
30/11/19 10:09 PM
30/11/19 10:09 PM
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The Composer Offline

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You'll have to patiently wait like the rest of us.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657446
30/11/19 10:17 PM
30/11/19 10:17 PM
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Raze Offline

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Originally Posted by korotama
There is a logical fallacy called "Appeal to Common Sense" too.

There is also a logical fallacy about inaccurately claiming something is a logical fallacy (speaking of semantics).
I wasn't actually relying on common sense to argue anything; I stated demonstrably true statements about reality. If I was using a logical fallacy, you would presumably be able to dispute the content of what I said (again, this is just semantics).


Originally Posted by korotama
Yep, my argument is that Larian provide as much information to people like me as they humanly can if they are going to charge $60 for it.

There will definitely be more information released about the game before it is available for purchase.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Raze] #657447
30/11/19 10:23 PM
30/11/19 10:23 PM
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korotama Offline OP
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Thank you.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: The Composer] #657448
30/11/19 10:28 PM
30/11/19 10:28 PM
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korotama Offline OP
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Originally Posted by The Composer


Even then, please refer to any single academic or legal source online that makes this a fact beyond opinion, that claims marketing should work a certain way in which you're implying (Of which, to be perfectly honest, I have a hard time understanding the logic of. Sorry!)



Will AMA's code of conduct suffice?
Link: http://www.dguth.journalism.ku.edu/AMA-Ethics.pdf

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657449
30/11/19 10:47 PM
30/11/19 10:47 PM
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The Composer Offline

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Sure would. Nice find btw, is interesting to read.

After having read through, I remain confident however that there's nothing ethically wrong with Larian's marketing. (I can't claim legally, as I am not a legal expert, nor does the document constitute law)

Last edited by The Composer; 30/11/19 10:48 PM. Reason: Inaccurate statement reformulated
Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: The Composer] #657450
30/11/19 11:05 PM
30/11/19 11:05 PM
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korotama Offline OP
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Originally Posted by The Composer
Sure would. Nice find btw, is interesting to read.

After having read through, I remain confident however that there's nothing ethically wrong with Larian's marketing. (I can't claim legally, as I am not a legal expert, nor does the document constitute law)


Yeah, marketing is a philosophy in its own right so there are different codes of conduct and the legal framework regulating such activities depends on where you do business obviously. Perhaps Larian could shed some light on what guidelines they abide by. Hopefully the industry will begin moving in this direction soon. It never hurts to set an industry standard if you ask me.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: The Composer] #657452
01/12/19 03:04 AM
01/12/19 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by The Composer
Sure would. Nice find btw, is interesting to read.

After having read through, I remain confident however that there's nothing ethically wrong with Larian's marketing. (I can't claim legally, as I am not a legal expert, nor does the document constitute law)

I used to work for DEC. Their marketing is a large part of the reason everyone's response is likely to be "who?" Larian's marketing is not like theirs, thankfully.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657453
01/12/19 03:42 PM
01/12/19 03:42 PM
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Haven't read the whole thread, so pardon me if it's been said already.

Anywho, as someone who's been an active part of the BG fandom for many years, I can just say that this fandom is a fickle bunch with some very very nasty and over-demanding people in it. I can perfectly understand Swen's pov and support it. Any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to realise that BG left some biiiiig shoes to fill, so coming out as a dev and trying to set realistic standards is imo the right way to go. BG3 is made by entirely different people than the rest of the franchise, on a different continent in a different era of gaming. Of course it's gonna be a departure from the series. Anyone who expects/demands else is delusional.

The only demand fans can make, is that the game is gonna be entertaining. How that form of entertainment is gonna work out leaves to be expected. I for one am looking forward to what Larian can bring to the table.

Last edited by Buttercheese; 01/12/19 03:43 PM.
Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Buttercheese] #657472
03/12/19 04:09 PM
03/12/19 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Buttercheese
Haven't read the whole thread, so pardon me if it's been said already.

Anywho, as someone who's been an active part of the BG fandom for many years, I can just say that this fandom is a fickle bunch with some very very nasty and over-demanding people in it. I can perfectly understand Swen's pov and support it. Any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to realise that BG left some biiiiig shoes to fill, so coming out as a dev and trying to set realistic standards is imo the right way to go. BG3 is made by entirely different people than the rest of the franchise, on a different continent in a different era of gaming. Of course it's gonna be a departure from the series. Anyone who expects/demands else is delusional.

The only demand fans can make, is that the game is gonna be entertaining. How that form of entertainment is gonna work out leaves to be expected. I for one am looking forward to what Larian can bring to the table.


I agree 100%

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657569
06/12/19 05:51 PM
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Swen's right, there will always be people with obscene expectations and will be impossible to please, and you should never try to please them all

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657631
09/12/19 06:05 PM
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I find his candor refreshing. Typically, you have a dev either claiming they're purely living up to the past, while taking a dump on it, OR they use vague phrases like, "re-imagining" to justify warping the source material.

Videogames as a medium have now been around long enough generations of men have fond childhood memories of games. In this regard, for many men, novelty can never trump nostalgia. The first x is more impactful on a timeline than the Nth x experienced later, even if objectively the latter x is superior to the first experienced. Our brains form engrams which calibrate us to treat what we experience as a baseline, normal. So the biggest RPG fans are liable to find any new rpg game the least distinct.

That said, I'm sure their game will get love. Divinity 2 was beloved enough by fans to get funding pre-release. Part of the goodwill earned by the studio is not bsing. Instead of saying something like, "we need more money" in the Kickstarter pitch, the studio lead goes, ~"we could finish and release with what we have but we want to expand the content in the game and need more funding to do so".

Marketing's wrong. Avoiding concrete definitions in favor of nice-sounding evasions is not endearing to the masses. Just tell the truth, do good, and people will like you. In this regard, Larian has been doing well, having fun, and made fans for this positive corporate spirit.

Personally, I liked the Baldur's Gates games (and Icewind Dale and Planescape) but do not hold them up as the best rpgs which have ever come out (would place FNV and ME2 in that role). Barring some radical deviation from past trends, I'm sure Larian will deliver on a thoroughly enjoyable game worthy of the Baldur's Gate legacy smile

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657632
09/12/19 06:15 PM
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[Linked Image]

Interesting tweet from Sven.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657637
09/12/19 08:18 PM
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The Composer Offline

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There's nothing mysterious about it. Just pointing out how much time the tiniest things in a development can take. I've spent 5 hours writing one dialogie with one companion for one act, and it's not even certain players would even ever touch that companion. Swen's saying that there's a very niche scenario where players will even get to experience what he's spent hours on considering, but even if mostly unseen, it still has to be made. #whyrpgstaketimetomake

It's like detailed terrain texturing and small clutter. You don't really think about it when it's there, but you notice it immediately if it's not. It's what I personally call the "unappreciated work", because few ever notices it. Such as that particular variation of a situation that ONLY occurs if you have two specific companions in your party. That's all there is to it, a little BG3 tease presumably with hints at attention to detail.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Omegaphallic] #657640
09/12/19 09:37 PM
09/12/19 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
[Linked Image]

Interesting tweet from Sven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0
that's my screenshot you stole there. wink

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Hawke] #657643
10/12/19 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
[Linked Image]

Interesting tweet from Sven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0
that's my screenshot you stole there. wink


I prefer to think of it as salvage. 😁

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Buttercheese] #657961
28/12/19 04:32 PM
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korotama Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Buttercheese
Haven't read the whole thread, so pardon me if it's been said already.

Anywho, as someone who's been an active part of the BG fandom for many years, I can just say that this fandom is a fickle bunch with some very very nasty and over-demanding people in it. I can perfectly understand Swen's pov and support it. Any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to realise that BG left some biiiiig shoes to fill, so coming out as a dev and trying to set realistic standards is imo the right way to go. BG3 is made by entirely different people than the rest of the franchise, on a different continent in a different era of gaming. Of course it's gonna be a departure from the series. Anyone who expects/demands else is delusional.

The only demand fans can make, is that the game is gonna be entertaining. How that form of entertainment is gonna work out leaves to be expected. I for one am looking forward to what Larian can bring to the table.


Sorry for necroposting but your insight triggered a watershed moment in my view on video game development. I now realize corporations are my best friend and I should never cast doubt on their motives, intentions or actions lest I indulge the delusional facets of my personality. This snippet of old-school German wisdom is just what I needed. Cheers, mate!

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: korotama] #657984
29/12/19 09:53 AM
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Sure dude, if that's the message you wanna take from my post. Four-ears model and all that jazz.

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 [Re: Buttercheese] #657988
29/12/19 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Buttercheese
Sure dude, if that's the message you wanna take from my post. Four-ears model and all that jazz.

I try not to read too much into a single post but sometimes mood swings get the better of me. I may have given you the straw man treatment for which I apologize. This board brings together people from all walks of life including hard-core douchebags like me (I have to live up to my reputation) who are reluctant to get on board the hype train before there is a showcase of basic gameplay. I was born and raised in a relatively high-trust society so normally I'd be inclined to take Larian's word for it when they say things like "we're making BG3 with a lot of love for what came before" (not a 100% accurate quote, mind you) but my personal experience with most for-profit companies both as a customer and an employee has been nothing short of a train wreck. Let's just say I'm not a fan of (neo)liberal economics and how it affects the average Joe's life whether it's home ownership, healthcare, wages, family or even morality. If you don't fight for your hard-won rights or privileges, you lose them, simple as that. If you have Marx on your shelf, you know what I'm talking about. Der Klassenkampf is not a thing of the past but woven into the fabric of human society.

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