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Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: korotama] #662955
09/03/20 02:53 PM
09/03/20 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by korotama
What should the game be renamed then? Baldur's Gate: Cash Grab? Baldur's Gate: Divinity Reboot? I'll be waiting for your reply, kyrthorsen.


Divinity Gate: Baldur's Sin cool

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: YezCrusader] #662958
09/03/20 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by YezCrusader
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Originally Posted by Emrikol

I suspect an overwhelming number of those who find BG2 the apex of RPGs are roughly 32-38 years of age (born between 82-88), based on a premise (which certainly could be wrong) that our formative years (roughly 10-16) are the most impactful. Most (by a large margin I suspect) born after 88 probably never even played BG1&2, with there being so many more 'modern' alternatives like EverQuest. Most (by a large margin I suspect) born before 82 had plenty of previous games to fill the sacred slot of 'best game ever' (e.g. table top D&D). So, if the range of possible gamers who might play BG is (say) 10 to 70, that 7 year range of 32-38 are a small minority. I could certainly be off by these figures a bit, but I see no reason to suspect that many gamers younger than 32 or older than 38 hold BG1&2 so high. Hence, the niche.


Those are quite a lot assumptions.


Admittedly. But, I do give what I think are legitimate grounds for those assumptions. To put it differently, with the explosion of 3D rpgs around 1999, I suspect many rpg fans born after 88 wouldn't even give a game like BG the time of day; it very quickly looked archaic compared to the likes of Everquest. On the other side, by the time BG was released, those born before 82 likely had the pedestal reserved for something else (most likely D&D itself). BG just couldn't rival the substance of what came before it (D&D) nor the technology that quickly came after it (FF7, Everquest, Zelda Ocarina, Ultima 9).



Just in my close inner circle of 4 friends, we all like (especially me) BG and none of us have reached 30 yet.

Those are quite a lot of assumptions after all...

Boom!


I make no claims to certainty. Even so, the issue is with those who hold BG1&2 to be the irreplaceable pinnacle of RPG gaming, not just people who liked the game (among whom I can be counted and probably virtually everyone on both sides of every debate).

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Maximuuus] #662959
09/03/20 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus


You'll probably pleased Larian's fanbase, you'll probably please D&D fanbase... But I still never see any "only" BG video game fan that is happy wherever I read discussions about BG3.



I think Larian is very happy if they can please Larian and DnD fans.
They can definitely live with having some angry BG lovers.


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Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Archaven] #662961
09/03/20 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaven
Originally Posted by korotama
What should the game be renamed then? Baldur's Gate: Cash Grab? Baldur's Gate: Divinity Reboot? I'll be waiting for your reply, kyrthorsen.


Divinity Gate: Baldur's Sin cool


I stll prefer my own suggestions:

- Baldurs Gate: The DIVINITYve Edition
- Divinity Original Sin: The Gate of Baldur
- Day of the Tentacle 2: Invasion of the Brain Eaters


groovy Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist groovy

World leading expert of artificial stupidity.
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Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Madscientist] #663002
09/03/20 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Madscientist
Originally Posted by Maximuuus


You'll probably pleased Larian's fanbase, you'll probably please D&D fanbase... But I still never see any "only" BG video game fan that is happy wherever I read discussions about BG3.



I think Larian is very happy if they can please Larian and DnD fans.
They can definitely live with having some angry BG lovers.


Of course they will, but it could be so easy to pleased everyone calling this game Baldur's Gate : The divinityve edition.
I like the suggestion.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: azarhal] #663017
09/03/20 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen

Do players jump like spider man or batman in D&D?


Swen said that was because of the tadpole.


Fanboy alert.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Raze] #663018
09/03/20 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Well, I dont mean to be rude but...why dont you go and play BG1 and 2 games and then imagine them with brutally enhanced 3d graphics 20 years later.

So, another entirely subjective criteria, then. People can not even agree on what the original games look like (see the grimdark discussions), and extrapolating 20 years from that is suppose to be useful?


Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
This is SIMPLY about the FACT that the game looks exactly like DOS2.

I'm not sure you know what the word exact means.


Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
And how exactly do you know how the game will look later?

How do you? At least changes and updates are a reasonable position for a pre-alpha build of the game where the save system hadn't been implemented yet.


Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Making a game called Baldurs gate THREE and ignoring the COMPLETE fanbase of BG ONE and TWO

Complete? Except of course the BG fans that have posted in various topics that they approve of the current direction, are ok with it, on the fence or would have done things differently but it isn't quite time to get the torches and pitchforks.

Also, given that it is literally impossible to please everyone, any features not to your particular preference does not mean you were ignored. The people making the game are gamers, and like any group have various preferences and opinions. With D:OS 1 and 2, various features and design decisions were debated internally before showing up in public sometimes to be echoed in forums, and points raised in forums have triggered internal debates. That will likely be the case when Early Access starts for BG3, as well.


Excuses, excuses, excuses.

I understand you mate, you work for Larian so you have to defend your company.

But saying its hard to please everyone is a bit two-faced. Larian's team is just taking the easy route and doing what they know how to do, a DOS game.

They are playing it "safe".

Nothing wrong with playing it "safe", but you choose to make a legendary title like BG3, and get the opportunity, then a bit more ambition is expected.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Nyanko] #663020
09/03/20 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Originally Posted by Emrikol

I suspect an overwhelming number of those who find BG2 the apex of RPGs are roughly 32-38 years of age (born between 82-88), based on a premise (which certainly could be wrong) that our formative years (roughly 10-16) are the most impactful. Most (by a large margin I suspect) born after 88 probably never even played BG1&2, with there being so many more 'modern' alternatives like EverQuest. Most (by a large margin I suspect) born before 82 had plenty of previous games to fill the sacred slot of 'best game ever' (e.g. table top D&D). So, if the range of possible gamers who might play BG is (say) 10 to 70, that 7 year range of 32-38 are a small minority. I could certainly be off by these figures a bit, but I see no reason to suspect that many gamers younger than 32 or older than 38 hold BG1&2 so high. Hence, the niche.


Those are quite a lot assumptions.


Admittedly. But, I do give what I think are legitimate grounds for those assumptions. To put it differently, with the explosion of 3D rpgs around 1999, I suspect many rpg fans born after 88 wouldn't even give a game like BG the time of day; it very quickly looked archaic compared to the likes of Everquest. On the other side, by the time BG was released, those born before 82 likely had the pedestal reserved for something else (most likely D&D itself). BG just couldn't rival the substance of what came before it (D&D) nor the technology that quickly came after it (FF7, Everquest, Zelda Ocarina, Ultima 9).



Once again, if Wizards of the coast had wanted BG3 to look and feel like BG1&2, they would have hired Obsidian and not Larian Studios. Which tells a lot on what their expectations are for the game.


True, we shall see how they like it now when it looks like DOS1 and 2.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: TheInfinitySock] #663021
09/03/20 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TheInfinitySock
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
That's what I said earlier, you are waiting a big new D&D video game.Not Baldur's Gate 3. You're a few that tend to confirm I'm right.

I add just a thing : Looking like is not (only) about visual thingd, please keep that in mind.

Yup pretty much I really wish people would stop jumping the gun and wait until Baldur's Gate 3 comes out first all we have seen so far is the pre alpha of Baldur's Gate 3 you can hardly make a judgment on a game when it is still in it's pre alpha stage


Yeah it would be better for everyone to just shut up and let the devs do what they want right?

The point of this is to let the devs know what we the fans want before the game comes out, imo.

We are the end-consumers after all, and you know that old saying: the customer is always right.

Last edited by kyrthorsen; 09/03/20 10:06 PM.
Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: vometia] #663022
09/03/20 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by TheInfinitySock
all we have seen so far is the pre alpha of Baldur's Gate 3 you can hardly make a judgment on a game when it is still in it's pre alpha stage

Quite; and as has been pointed out repeatedly. I'm still not entirely sure what BG is "supposed" to look like anyway, having only seen a tangential debate about whether or not it's supposed to be "grimdark", and not unreasonable observations that it's perhaps largely futile endeavour to try to transpose 20+ year old graphics to a different generation of games.

But at this point it seems to mostly be going round in circles with BG/DOS comparisons being little more than "yes it is/no it isn't".


No, its actually pretty straightforward:

First, BG3 should not look like DOS1 and/or DOS2.

Second, BG3 should have its own visual identity, with "resemblance" to what has been seen in BG1 and 2.

Third, yes it should be grimdark, and no, don't see a problem with transposing a style of a game 20 years old (look what they did to DOOM for example)

Quite simple guidelines actually.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: korotama] #663025
09/03/20 10:03 PM
09/03/20 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by korotama
What should the game be renamed then? Baldur's Gate: Cash Grab? Baldur's Gate: Divinity Reboot? I'll be waiting for your reply, kyrthorsen.


Thanks for waiting bro.

In its current "pre-alpha" state this game's title should be obvious:

Divinity: Original Sin 3 - D&D Edition.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: kyrthorsen] #663027
09/03/20 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
First, BG3 should not look like DOS1 and/or DOS2.


Or maybe it should

Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Second, BG3 should have its own visual identity, with "resemblance" to what has been seen in BG1 and 2.


Or not

Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
don't see a problem with transposing a style of a game 20 years old


I do

Point is, this is all opinion. Bigger issue is, though, there is good reason to suspect the opinions you state are held by no more than a tiny minority, whose satisfaction could easily be counterproductive and detrimental to the whole undertaking.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: kyrthorsen] #663029
09/03/20 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
and you know that old saying: the customer is always right.


Well, that saying is not really true if it is meant as a carte blanche 'every (potential) customer is right', because every single customer and potential customer certainly can not be the person to decide what the product is or should be. That can in no way work.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: kyrthorsen] #663030
09/03/20 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen

Do players jump like spider man or batman in D&D?


Swen said that was because of the tadpole.


Fanboy alert.

Really? Someone listens to the devs and forms an opinion based in facts, so they are a fanboy?

As opposed to..what? Someone like you; screaming about a game not even half finished?

I'd rather be a fanboy instead of a miserable person screaming at game developers online because they're not making a multi-million dollar game to cater specifically to you.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Emrikol] #663034
09/03/20 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
First, BG3 should not look like DOS1 and/or DOS2.


Or maybe it should

Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Second, BG3 should have its own visual identity, with "resemblance" to what has been seen in BG1 and 2.


Or not

Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
don't see a problem with transposing a style of a game 20 years old


I do

Point is, this is all opinion. Bigger issue is, though, there is good reason to suspect the opinions you state are held by no more than a tiny minority, whose satisfaction could easily be counterproductive and detrimental to the whole undertaking.


As one famous philosopher once said: "Better are the opinions of the thoughtful and critical minority, then the fanboy zero-IQ masses".

But you are right in one thing - it would be detrimental for this DOS clone in case the devs start accepting some of the suggestions made here.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Waeress] #663035
09/03/20 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Waeress
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
and you know that old saying: the customer is always right.


Well, that saying is not really true if it is meant as a carte blanche 'every (potential) customer is right', because every single customer and potential customer certainly can not be the person to decide what the product is or should be. That can in no way work.


No it was not meant as a carte blanche.

It was said by a person that has a lot of gaming history and experience specifically within the fantasy rpg genre.

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Eguzky] #663036
09/03/20 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen

Do players jump like spider man or batman in D&D?


Swen said that was because of the tadpole.


Fanboy alert.

Really? Someone listens to the devs and forms an opinion based in facts, so they are a fanboy?

As opposed to..what? Someone like you; screaming about a game not even half finished?

I'd rather be a fanboy instead of a miserable person screaming at game developers online because they're not making a multi-million dollar game to cater specifically to you.


Aha, so when Swen said that the PC's jump like spider man because of tadpoles that is a fact.

But when some one like me points out some obvious things that can be seen in the gameplay demo - that that is just a miserable person screaming.

Well Eguzky, obviously you are are a very unbiased and objective person (just kidding, you are a fanboy).

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: kyrthorsen] #663038
09/03/20 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Originally Posted by Waeress
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
and you know that old saying: the customer is always right.


Well, that saying is not really true if it is meant as a carte blanche 'every (potential) customer is right', because every single customer and potential customer certainly can not be the person to decide what the product is or should be. That can in no way work.


No it was not meant as a carte blanche.

It was said by a person that has a lot of gaming history and experience specifically within the fantasy rpg genre.


Well, that is something that I have too. Over 30 years since I read LOTR for the first time as a little kid and over 30 years of gaming that has leaned a lot towards the fantasy and rpg games. And most of the things that you have listed and said from the posts I have seen is not what I agree with.

So, who's opinion of our two opinions is the one to listen to for Larian?

Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: kyrthorsen] #663045
09/03/20 11:33 PM
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I don't understand why is so hard to understand people asking a game of a series to resemble the previous installments of said series,we must be crazy indeed and we are ''blinded by nostalgia'' and a ''minority''

First of all YOU saying we're a minority is also an opinion. Want to hear a fact instead of an opinion? A lot of people everywhere is complaining about the same things,I wonder why. And you can come and repeat the same ''There's no consensus on original bg fans opinions'' mantra,but is nothing more than something you tell yourselves to fell better,there has been a lot of feedback on how BG3 can resemble BG1 and 2 WITHOUT taking any crazy measures making the game appeal to everyone but you just choose to ignore it and keep repeating your same old mantras ''it looks like DOS3 and that's a good thing'' ''It's only pre-alpha'' ''You want the game to look like a 20 year old game'' and plenty of other nonsense.

And while I agree is on pre-alpha and some things are bound to change is PRECISELY why is the perfect moment to adress this,not 2 years from now when the game is complete and not undergoing any more changes,really,it's not that hard to understand.

The only thing you do with your unreasonable fanboyism is giving BG original fans more reasons to keep ''fighting'' for the improvement of a new installment of a well known series of games. In fact,I considered myself quite neutral,but seeing such refusal when BG1 and 2 are mentioned makes me feel that most defenders of BG3 are just fanbois with the only intent of play another DOS game and that makes me turn my back on neutrality in favor of old BG people.

Originally Posted by Waeress
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
Originally Posted by Waeress
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen
and you know that old saying: the customer is always right.


Well, that saying is not really true if it is meant as a carte blanche 'every (potential) customer is right', because every single customer and potential customer certainly can not be the person to decide what the product is or should be. That can in no way work.


No it was not meant as a carte blanche.

It was said by a person that has a lot of gaming history and experience specifically within the fantasy rpg genre.


Well, that is something that I have too. Over 30 years since I read LOTR for the first time as a little kid and over 30 years of gaming that has leaned a lot towards the fantasy and rpg games. And most of the things that you have listed and said from the posts I have seen is not what I agree with.

So, who's opinion of our two opinions is the one to listen to for Larian?


None,because one of their goals is to appeal to new players outside the genre and that's why they want to make the game ''approachable for everyone'' (Their words,not mine) They're well aware of what DOS2 fans want and they've delivered that already.


Last edited by Adgaroth; 09/03/20 11:41 PM.
Re: This is not BG3 but DOS3 [Re: Adgaroth] #663049
10/03/20 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Adgaroth
I don't understand why is so hard to understand people asking a game of a series to resemble the previous installments of said series


I don't think it is a question of understanding why they would want it to resemble the originals; it is a question of why they would expect so many others to want it.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
we are ''blinded by nostalgia''


It's a reasonable explanation.

Originally Posted by Adgaroth
and [we're] a ''minority''


Do you think many people in their teens and 20s are clamoring for BG3 to look and play like a game that was made when or before they were born? Do you think the many people over 40 who already felt about something else (e.g D&D) the way you do about BG1&2 are clamoring for BG3 to look and play like something that was just another good game in the history of their RPG playing experience? Why on earth do you think you are anything but a minority?

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