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Re: About Goblins and other lore [Re: Goldberry] #669705
29/06/20 03:19 PM
29/06/20 03:19 PM
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Sordak Offline
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etonbears i think your argument fails with FR tho. FR isnt Warhammer where certain fantasy races are directly associated with real world ethnicities (Tomb kings with egyptians, lizardmen with aztecs, elves with brits, dark elves with americans).

FR isnt a moorcockian world, its in many ways the opposit of it.
A Moorcockian world is essentialy our world with a fantasy filter over it.

meanwhile FR is a fantasy world which specifically has portals to our normal world where humans come from.

Basically any Human Erath culture counterpart in FR IS a Human culture.
orcs are not the stand in for scotts and football hooligans as they are in WHFB. Orcs are a stand in for nothing, they are orcs, they exist outside of the Human frame of mind.

Wehter or not thats good is... up to anyones debate. I dont mind counterpart cultures actually, in my personal setting the Fish people are Dutch because i think thats hillarious, but in FR, an Orc sn an Orc. a Human is a Human.

Re: About Goblins and other lore [Re: deathidge] #669712
29/06/20 10:28 PM
29/06/20 10:28 PM
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Eton, Berkshire, EU
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Originally Posted by deathidge
Originally Posted by etonbears
...even without the issue of the African slavery ( which was of an industrial-scale and brutality that makes it quite unlike most other historical slavery )...


If I am understanding you correctly, that you think American slavery was worse than any other slavery and that that is what makes it "unlike most other historical slavery", you need to go and brush up on your history. American slaves were treated like royalty compared to the largest slave nations throughout history. Here's an example: "Spanish historian Fray Diego de Durán reported that 80,400 men, women and children were sacrificed for the inauguration of the Templo Mayor under a previous Aztec emperor" (source: https://www.history.com/news/aztec-human-sacrifice-religion). They cut the still-beating hearts out of the chests of men, women, AND children. I'm not saying slavery here in the US was a cake-walk; on the contrary, actually. But don't try and spout off that it stands alone as the most brutal slave nation in history.


No, I guess you did not understand me correctly. I did not say anything about American slave treatment. I said African slavery, by which I meant the entire sorry Atlantic slave trade, perpetrated over several hundred years, on an industrial scale, largely by the major European trading nations ( the Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, British and French Empires ), with the willing participation of some African leaders.

When the Europeans started trading extensively, and sending missionaries to West and central Africa, they found a patchwork of nations, many of which had already been influenced for centuries by the spread of Arab culture across Africa, including a slave trade, largely serviced by local wars.

The European traders used any means possible to obtain encourage the "production" of slaves as a commodity ( including direct kidnapping ), then shipped them as cargo ( literally ) to the Americas as the "middle passage" of a triangular trade ( European manufactures to Africa, then slaves to the Americas, then raw materials to Europe ).

In round numbers ( figures are disputed ), ~10 Million slaves reached their final destination ( ~1 Milion to the US ), ~8 Million died after enslavement but before reaching their destination. The activities in Africa to obtain the ~18 Million enslaved ( raids, wars, kidnapping etc ) are estimated to have resulted in ~8 Million more deaths.

The Aztec behaviour was, as you rightly point out, atrocious. While the Aztec get the name-check as the big Civilization of pre-columbian Central America, they were actually a relatively small group that dominated many of the surrounding states through conquest. But even then, possibly half of the Central American states were independent. From what I have read, their religion had a prophesy of impending calamity at the time the Spanish arrived, which they believed could be averted through mass human sacrifice.

You might disagree, but I would not classify these victims as slaves. They were "acquired" from the Aztec's vassal populations, and through attacking neighbouring states, purely for the purpose of sacrifice. As a result, many of the Central American states were ( at least initially ) happy to see the Spanish arrive.

Top prize for appaling historical behaviour, however, probably goes to Chinggis and his generals of the Mongol Hordes. In addition to the complete destruction of cities and slaughter of all inhabitants ( Merv, Nishapur etc ), they are thought to have caused the death of about 5% of the World's population, and destroyed 50-90% of population of certain resisting states. Not infrequently, states that surrendered were then forced to provide their troops as part of the Horde, participating in, and making them complicit in the next massacre.

Who needs evil races, when you have Humanity?

Re: About Goblins and other lore [Re: Goldberry] #669713
29/06/20 10:58 PM
29/06/20 10:58 PM
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Posts: 156
Eton, Berkshire, EU
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Originally Posted by Sordak
etonbears i think your argument fails with FR tho. FR isnt Warhammer where certain fantasy races are directly associated with real world ethnicities (Tomb kings with egyptians, lizardmen with aztecs, elves with brits, dark elves with americans).

FR isnt a moorcockian world, its in many ways the opposit of it.
A Moorcockian world is essentialy our world with a fantasy filter over it.

meanwhile FR is a fantasy world which specifically has portals to our normal world where humans come from.

Basically any Human Erath culture counterpart in FR IS a Human culture.
orcs are not the stand in for scotts and football hooligans as they are in WHFB. Orcs are a stand in for nothing, they are orcs, they exist outside of the Human frame of mind.

Wehter or not thats good is... up to anyones debate. I dont mind counterpart cultures actually, in my personal setting the Fish people are Dutch because i think thats hillarious, but in FR, an Orc sn an Orc. a Human is a Human.


True, but I wasn't really arguing about how much the real world influences any particular fantasy world; more that fantasy writers often use what they know of the real world as a template or inspiration. Its much easier than writing from scratch, and it resonates with the audience.

But because we all know much less than we like to think we do, a writer can easily end up portraying something they did not intend to be offensive, but through their incomplete understanding, actually is offensive to someone because it resonates with stereotypical depictions.

In the end, I guess it's someone else's world, and they'll change it as they see fit, just as they always have smile

Re: About Goblins and other lore [Re: Goldberry] #669728
30/06/20 08:59 AM
30/06/20 08:59 AM
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what else are they? Indentured? i dont think they were volunteering.
I dont see the point in debating the semantics.
also
>aztecs were pretty small
Only if Rome was very small too.
Every empire was that, a small core dominating a large region by conquest.

also
>Industrial scale
i never realy see how it not beeing on an industrial scale makes it any better realy.
If you lived in italy and Arab slave traders enslaved your entire village you probably didnt give a shit about it beein "Industrial" or not.
You mean because the perpetrators didnt give a shit? I dont think they ever did regardless.
The consequences for the victim are the point that matters as far as im concerned.

>Real world inspiraiton
The first Art Humans invented was the grand art of Remixing.
And realy they never invented any other form of it.

So i wouldnt call that a surprise.
>unintentonally beeing offensive
i dont think anyone is intentionally offensive when making a fantasy setting.

If youre offended, chances are its your own fault. Theres no fixed characteristic which determines what you can or cannot be offended by.
Hence why i say: why bother. Theres no reason even attempting to be inoffensive when what is and isnt offensive varies by an individual basis.

Re: About Goblins and other lore [Re: Goldberry] #669730
30/06/20 10:01 AM
30/06/20 10:01 AM
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First of all, I think it is good that goblins ( and maybe other races ) are shown as people and not just monsters.
They have their own culture. Even if they are evil and they are not liked by most "civilized" races, they are not mindless monsters.

As I have written somewhere else, for me evil means that a char cares mostly about his own goals or the goals of his group but not about others.
The goals of an evil char can be anything, even good ones. He is evil because he does not care about others.
Evil does not automatically include the desire to harm others, though it can be the case.
When I say "do not care about others" it means that the evil char does not care at all, no matter if others suffer or profit from his actions.
An evil char might help a good char to achieve a good goal, as long as the evil char himself profits from doing so.

Next question: Is slavery evil?
From the point of view of most people today: YES
Was slavery considered evil by cultures that had slavery? I do not know.
In many cultures (e.g. ancient rome or aztec) slave was simply a legal status of a human. A person could become a slave or stop being a slave because of a contract and this was legal according to local law.
In almost all cultures there were individuals who were against slavery, but I think most non slaves were not against slavery, else there would have been no slavery.

Edit: I read my own words again and came to the conclusion: Slavery is evil.
I have defined evil as not caring about others. A person who supports slavery does not care about the situation of the slaves as long as the slaves generate profit.
In a place were slavery is legal, a slave owner is lawful evil if he treats his slaves according to local law.
A neutral evil person violates laws about slavery ( either slavery is forbidden or not following laws for legal slavery) because he does not care about laws and slavery generates profit.
A chaotic evil person may have slaves because he likes to harm and torture others.

Last edited by Madscientist; 30/06/20 10:11 AM.

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Re: About Goblins and other lore [Re: Goldberry] #669731
30/06/20 10:15 AM
30/06/20 10:15 AM
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thats fixed versus relative morality.
Personally im not a big fan of moral relativism in my fantasy.

Yes, to the Aztecs saccrificing people from conquered tribes may have been morally justified because the gods demanded saccrifice.

to me, it isnt.

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