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The importance of this game. #669718
30/06/20 03:51 AM
30/06/20 03:51 AM
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Bronze1979 Offline OP
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Dear Larian,


I’ve played many RPG’s over the years. Many, many.

RPG’s are the center of my heart. I believe an amazing RPG is like bringing an amazing book to life. I believe you should experience a gamut of emotion; from fear to anger, love to laughter and back again.

I believe a good RPG should have an amazing antagonist and an equally amazing protagonist.

I believe you should get lost in the story to the point where side quests don’t even feel like side quests.

I’ve played many a beautiful RPG; as well as many of garbage ones.

Planescape: Torment is my #2 RPG of all time.

Can you guess my first?

You’re right. It’s Baldur’s Gate 2.

RPG’s are why I play video games. And in my personal
opinion, those who can make an amazing RPG stand above other genres in the industry

I feel many others share my opinion about Baldur’s Gate 2; thus you have now, in your hands, the ability to stamp your name on the gaming industry forever. In my opinion, far beyond even where Divinity reached.

#2 is beloved and treasured in the hearts of many. I look forward to #3 with equal amounts of hope as well as fear.

Make it amazing.

What’s your favorite RPG of all time and why?

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669720
30/06/20 05:19 AM
30/06/20 05:19 AM
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Warlocke Offline
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Hear hear!

I loved DOS2, so I have abundant faith that Larian will knock this out of the park. Most of my old favorite studios are dead to me. BioWare, Blizzard, and Bethesda are each a hollow shell. Down with the letter B, ascendant is the L.

Anyway,

#1 - Planescape: Torment, easily. I probably don’t need to expound upon why.

In fact, if Larian makes BG4, and does it in the same mold as BG2, which is to say, following the journey of the characters but having nothing to do with the titular city: SET IT IN SIGIL. Do it. BG4 as a stealth sequel to PS:T might be too much for me to handle.

The rest of my favorites, in no particular order:

Fallout: New Vegas
Baldur’s Gate 1/2
Icewind Dale 1/2
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Dragon’s Dogma
Chrono Trigger
Fire Emblem (various entries)
Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (I’ve always been the “Zelda isn’t an rpg” guy, but after that, I say give it to them)
Total War: Warhammer 1/2 (not an rpg, but I play it like one)
XCom 1/2 (also not an rpg but I have an active imagination)
Final Fantasy 7: Remake (fight me!)

I feel like I’m missing something important but I can’t put my finger on what.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669723
30/06/20 07:37 AM
30/06/20 07:37 AM
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Tarorn Offline
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i Like a few of those mentioned - ive only just purchased DOS2 - I loved Shining Force on the mega drive (yes I'm that old ) - Icewind Dale 1& 2 I really enjoyed too, FF7 original. But what I really love is D&D themed games as I spent many happy hours playing D&D when I was a youngster - slap a D&D label on a computer game & I'll try it - why? happy memories, time spent with good friends adventuring in far away lands - I very much agree a good game is like a good book or a great movie - only you partake in it - I think Larian will really deliver- I cannot wait to get my hands on BG3 it might just set the standard for the genre for the next generation...

Last edited by Tarorn; 30/06/20 07:39 AM.
Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669725
30/06/20 08:44 AM
30/06/20 08:44 AM
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Sordak Offline
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Morrowind and Final Fantasy Tactics for sure.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669727
30/06/20 08:56 AM
30/06/20 08:56 AM
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Maximuuus Offline
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Baldur's Gate of course.

I really feel like you but there's something I have to admit.
The story is not anymore the central point of modern RPG.
(Nearly every game could be called RPG today)

Gameplay is what gives the RPG tag now.
Story is just a part of it.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669732
30/06/20 12:01 PM
30/06/20 12:01 PM
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Wormerine Offline
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In no particular order:

Fallout1&2
Fallout New Vegas
Deus Ex
Arcanum
Baldur’s Gate 1&2
Planescape: Torment
Gothic1&2
Witcher 3
Dark Souls


Honourable mentions:
Alpha Protocol
Pillars of Eternity 1&2
Shadowrun: Dragonfall Directors Cut
First half of Disco Elysium

Last edited by Wormerine; 30/06/20 01:18 PM.
Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Warlocke] #669733
30/06/20 12:29 PM
30/06/20 12:29 PM
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_Vic_ Offline
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My top ten, in no particular order.

BG trilogy (To me it´s just a big game)
Planescape:Torment
Suikoden V
Trails of cold steel trilogy
Witcher 3
Grandia 2
SW: Knights of the Old republic 2
Vampire TM: Bloodlines
Tyranny
Pillars of Eternity 2
NWN 2: Mask of the Betrayer

Honourable mentions:
Divinity OS: 2
Pathfinder: kingmaker
The Last Remnant
Dragon Quest: XI
Drakensang: TROT
Star Ocean
Arcanum
Beyond divinity


Originally Posted by Warlocke

Most of my old favorite studios are dead to me. BioWare, Blizzard, and Bethesda are each a hollow shell. Down with the letter B, ascendant is the L.

I´m afraid we can soon add Obsidian or Inxile after the adquisition by Microsoft.

I can´t really fathom why so many CRPG fans spend their time in pointless debates like PC vs Console, 2d vs 3D, RTwP vs TB, etc when the real problem of the lack of non-indie western RPGs today is that many great studios are bought and repurposed into making FPS games.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669734
30/06/20 01:23 PM
30/06/20 01:23 PM
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Sordak Offline
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what was the last half decent game obsidian made?
theyve been dead for a while

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: _Vic_] #669735
30/06/20 01:34 PM
30/06/20 01:34 PM
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kanisatha Online content
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
I´m afraid we can soon add Obsidian or Inxile after the adquisition by Microsoft.


That's just your opinion. For me Obsidian is by far the best RPG studio out there. TOW has been out less than a year and its sales are now beyond D:OS2. It's Larian that has been a dead studio to me up until now. Let's see if BG3 changes that.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: _Vic_] #669736
30/06/20 01:36 PM
30/06/20 01:36 PM
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Wormerine Offline
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Originally Posted by _Vic_

I´m afraid we can soon add Obsidian or Inxile after the adquisition by Microsoft.

I can´t really fathom why so many CRPG fans spend their time in pointless debates like PC vs Console, 2d vs 3D, RTwP vs TB, etc when the real problem of the lack of non-indie western RPGs today is that many great studios are bought and repurposed into making FPS games.

We shall see. I will not be a speaker of doom, before I see what Obsidian and Inxile are up to with Microsoft funding. Some people point to Outer Worlds as a sign of decline, but 1) it's good for what it is 2) has nothing to do with aquisition - that is a project which predates the buyout and is made with Private Division, not Microsoft.

I suppose the problem is that RPGs are complex, ambitious and expensive games to make. Larian seems to be the first studio I can think of, that makes RPGs independently and seems to be succesful. Though, D:OS was close to falling apart business wise from what I understand. There is also CDPR. I am curious to see how long they will prosper.

Obsidian and Troika were not success stories, even if they made games that dedicated RPG fans adore. And RPGs of old were made under a publisher - a publisher which released some of the finest RPGs and then shut down.

And as to publisher's influence. To me, the most tragic bit of Kotaku's Anthem article was that it was Bioware itself which did harm, rather then overbearing hand of a publisher. Still, screw EA.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Sordak] #669737
30/06/20 01:50 PM
30/06/20 01:50 PM
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Wormerine Offline
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Originally Posted by Sordak
what was the last half decent game obsidian made?

Well, Pillars are almost great. First one is undermined by low budget and stretching itself thin with a serious need of 2nd, 3rd or 4th pass, and the sequel is undermined by weak narrative direction with departure of Eric Fenstermaker - Josh Sawyer is great in many things but a good storyteller he is not. Still, overall the most RPG-y RPGs I played in years, and my second favourite Obsidian offering after New Vegas. I would love if they could work with Larian's engine - they would create a magnificent campaign I think.

That said, I think we need new blood. The reason why Larian games are exciting (even if not my cup of tea) is that what they are aiming for is so different then what we expect an RPGs to be. Just as Bioware was back in Baldur's Gate days, Obsidian in it's early days, or Tim Cains offerings. By now we know their tricks, and we demand they make the same game we liked 10-20 years ago, while at the same time expecting them to evoke the same wonder they once did.

While far from perfect, D:OS1&2 and Disco Elysium have been the best RPGs made in years, and not because they are better then competition (I personally don't think they are) but they have fresh ideas and solutions.

And if Josh Sawyer wants to create his bicycle simulator, or medieval historical RPG, I think those have more potential of being new classics then making him works on games that he grew over by now. Biggest issue of PoEs is lack of conviction.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Sordak] #669739
30/06/20 03:27 PM
30/06/20 03:27 PM
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Danielbda Online content
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Originally Posted by Sordak
what was the last half decent game obsidian made?
theyve been dead for a while

wtf have you been living under a rock?
PoE1, PoE2, Stick of truth?
Even Outer Worlds and Tyranny are pretty solid, though not as good as the aforementioned.
If you consider the numbers, Obsidian has been the greatest developer of the last decade in terms consistency. The only contender I can think of that has been as consistent (not a single bad game) is FromSoftware.

Last edited by Danielbda; 30/06/20 03:34 PM.
Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669740
30/06/20 03:45 PM
30/06/20 03:45 PM
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Danielbda Online content
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BG Trilogy
Pillars of Eternity
Deadfire
Dragon Age: Origins
Skyrim
Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Fallout: New Vegas

Won't cite any JRPGS because they are not RPGs at all, nothing to do with some really being great, just that having level ups don't make an RPG. For the same reason Diablo 2, one of the best games ever made, is not on the list.

Last edited by Danielbda; 30/06/20 04:34 PM.
Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669741
30/06/20 03:46 PM
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Salto89 Offline
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Latest Obsidian's games are maybe not bad but really mediocre. They lack courage (Tyranny could be fantastic, was spiritless) and just try to copy some old stuff. I'm glad they didn't take BG3.

My favourites?
BG2, F:NV, DOS2, Witcher. In recent years I liked Disco Elysium.

... and some sentiment for Final Fantasy VII-IX

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Salto89] #669742
30/06/20 03:57 PM
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Wormerine Offline
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Originally Posted by Salto89
They lack courage and just try to copy some old stuff.

I agree to some extend but that's a downside of crowdfunding, no? They fund the game on the promise of making IE-like game with a touch of New Vegas, because that's what people liked and are willing to fund generously. It's the other side of coin. You take money from publishers, they want you to make the game like the one that sells really well right now, and are upset because the copycat isn't as good as the original. You take money from public, and they want you to make the game they already liked, and then are upset because it is either not different enough or not exactly the same as the original. Considering Obsidian was so close to shutting down, I don't blame them for playing safe for a bit.

That's why I am curious what their games under Microsoft will look like. Theoretically, they might have now freedom to do more interesting games. There is Grounded which is definitely different then their usual offering but it's a tiny passion project. There are rumors of a big RPG in works - we will see what it will be all about.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Wormerine] #669743
30/06/20 05:16 PM
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Sven_ Offline
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BG will be an important game insofar as it's going to be a testbed how viable/big:

-party based RPGs in general
-D&D games

can be in today's market. If it turns out to be a success, Larian together with WOTC would be clever to license their engine so that others may have a go as well.

Originally Posted by Wormerine
There are rumors of a big RPG in works - we will see what it will be all about.


Skyrim: New Neketaka. :P
https://www.pcgamer.com/obsidian-ceo-id-love-to-turn-eternity-into-more-like-a-skyrim-product/



Last edited by Sven_; 30/06/20 05:18 PM.
Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Sven_] #669744
30/06/20 07:06 PM
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Well, that's from before Deadfire bombed financially. It still could be it, but I have my doubts.

Some interesting art can be found here:
https://www.artstation.com/cmatchett

It doesn't strike me as PoE wibe, but who knows.

Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669746
30/06/20 07:18 PM
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Baldur's Gate 2
Planescape Torment
Fallout 2
Chrono Trigger
FF 8
Lunar Silver Star Story
DQ 8
Witcher 3

Last edited by IrenicusBG3; 30/06/20 07:20 PM.
Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Bronze1979] #669750
30/06/20 08:24 PM
30/06/20 08:24 PM
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Warlocke Offline
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I hope MS doesn’t ruin Obsidian. They tend to have good ideas but lack the funds to follow through.

I have mixed feelings about Pillars of Eternity. There was a lot to love, but the setting never gripped me the way even D:OS does. The game also had what I consider to be some design flaws. Replaying all of the Infinity Engine games has helped me isolate why. Compared to those classics, I spend a lot more time in POE tapping the pause button in difficult fights. Que up a few moves, play, immediately pause again, select abilities, play, immediately pause, and so on ad nauseam.

I don’t do this in IE games, because most of my party members don’t have as many skills to juggle. I’m mostly just selecting skills for spell casters and to a lesser extent, priests. Everyone else is largely autoattacking. In POE almost everybody has a selection of skills, so that requires more time spent tapping pause. More difficult fights often feel like a scattered slog.

Also, POE, especially #2 is overly balanced. The IE games are not, and that is a big part of the charm. When I discovered in ToB that I could defeat a dragon easily by casting timestop, polymorphing into a mind flayer, and attacking the dragon until it’s Int reached 0, and then watching it crumple when the timestop concluded, I was elated. It felt like cheating the system, but that was the point. D:OS2 has the same design ethos, where the player is rewarded and encouraged to abuse the system, so I think Larian is the perfect choice for BG3.

Last edited by Warlocke; 30/06/20 08:27 PM.
Re: The importance of this game. [Re: Warlocke] #669754
30/06/20 08:46 PM
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Danielbda Online content
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Originally Posted by Warlocke
I hope MS doesn’t ruin Obsidian. They tend to have good ideas but lack the funds to follow through.

I have mixed feelings about Pillars of Eternity. There was a lot to love, but the setting never gripped me the way even D:OS does. The game also had what I consider to be some design flaws. Replaying all of the Infinity Engine games has helped me isolate why. Compared to those classics, I spend a lot more time in POE tapping the pause button in difficult fights. Que up a few moves, play, immediately pause again, select abilities, play, immediately pause, and so on ad nauseam.

I don’t do this in IE games, because most of my party members don’t have as many skills to juggle. I’m mostly just selecting skills for spell casters and to a lesser extent, priests. Everyone else is largely autoattacking. In POE almost everybody has a selection of skills, so that requires more time spent tapping pause. More difficult fights often feel like a scattered slog.

Also, POE, especially #2 is overly balanced. The IE games are not, and that is a big part of the charm. When I discovered in ToB that I could defeat a dragon easily by casting timestop, polymorphing into a mind flayer, and attacking the dragon until it’s Int reached 0, and then watching it crumple when the timestop concluded, I was elated. It felt like cheating the system, but that was the point. D:OS2 has the same design ethos, where the player is rewarded and encouraged to abuse the system, so I think Larian is the perfect choice for BG3.


Couldn't agree more about the balance obsession that Obsidian (Sawyer) has. But I welcomed the added complexity in gameplay, specially for the martial classes, this allows for more customization and creating more unique builds.

I hope Larian is inspired by BG's design though, fuck balance, put crazy ways for the players to exploit the system there, because you can do crazy things even in the Pnp.

Last edited by Danielbda; 30/06/20 08:51 PM.
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