Aside from the technical fine tuning there seems to be an overwhelming amount of complaining about features that people wish Larian woulve implemented, add through dlc or change altogether. I don't quite get it. I thought a game was about experiencing it as a whole. It will need to have its own style and tone to standout. It doesn't need everything ever thought of and I'm ignoring the fact that they didn't have a large budget.

Sometimes the notes you don't play are more important than those you do.

Dying right after combat, because status effects carry over and you have ZERO time to try and get rid of them - plus the game apparently runs 2 turns in an instant, is not in any way a plus.
The whole of the game would be better if you did not have to worry about something like that.

There are many other issues, some minor, some major. A design team can only think of so many things. The true integrity test comes with public release. Thankfully Larian have listened to criticism so far - most notably the irritating NPC chatter they fixed.

Hopefully they keep listening to the community and keep improving their game.

Indeed !

You can say it also like this:
"The grass is always greener at the other side !"

Or why people are not (or never) happy with what they get/have ...

... it's just a "game", not vital !

Also, that a game keeps getting updates is good thing and many of the best games that is played for many years. Heck, Star craft got updates more than a decade after it release.

There is no shame in improving a game after release.

This was actually dealt with and doesnt happen anymore, unless you as a player do something really nonsensical.


I dont see why everyone should be subjected to ridiculous changes that would distort core mechanics of the game - because you extremely incompetent and lazy few players cause those problems for yourself.

You hardly cause problems for yourself if you're under the influence of status effects. You're saying this was dealt with - then why are people continuing to complain about dying right after combat?

Perhaps you could source a developer log or update that explains this? Or are you too lazy?

THERE IS NO "people" there is just you and one or two other players, as far as i can see.

You cause that for yourself by playing BADLY. The only way i can see this happening once or twice in the whole game is if you were at extremely low health when combat finished and then status effect too off the last hp before you could heal.

- negligible and certainly not something warranting serious game changes.

Suck it up.


Compared to how this worked before its a non existant issue now.

You are quite out of the loop, stop think the game is only designed for you, can you imagine that? Done?

So for some players it's a nuisance they manage turn based combats and if the combat ends it can suddenly degenerate in a quick action real time to do in urge because a character will die from state.

Most of those players would probably just be happy with a pause, which probably never happen because now too late to implement.

But it's a valid opinion and that for you it's not is quoted but doesn't invalidate this opinion.

Obviously, the people who want changes... think the game would be better with said changes... what's hard to understand about that?

Entitlement issues really.

But remember people, what do you get if developers really make a game on players feedback and statistics from their playerbase?
You get Dragon Age 2.
And no-one wants that... REALLY.

As for Halcyon's issues, yeah, those happened in beta, but definitely are fixed in the release as far as I see... you always see about 5 empty rounds after combat which cleans all your effects (without damage and such) to prevent you from post-combat mortality as beta had.
The situation Fend pictured was frequent in Beta, but I cannot see how it can happen at all in the final release... seeing how the game clears you of them before going back to real-time...
I suggest you verify your files.

that's why we have this: http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=61&page=1

I don't know why this forum attracts an inordinate number of people who feel the game is a failure unless it caters to their every whim and preference and god forbid should someone else derive enjoyment from the mechanics that they dislike.

Where has this negativity come from? Most of the people I've seen voice their issues with subjective qualities of the game have done so reasonably and without setting the ultimatum of "change this or I stop playing." People know what they like and don't like, and if a certain feature rubs them the wrong way they have every right to voice it. If Larian agrees, they can change it. If they don't, they don't have to.

I really doubt anyone here agrees 100% with every last design choice in this or any other game. Hell, there are a few things about the UI that bug the crap out of me. And if I were so inclined I could come here and voice those complaints, thus opening a dialogue where people can list their reasons for agreeing or disagreeing with me. Because that's what a forum is *for*.

I don't see that. At all.

160,000 people already bought that game a few days ago. Maybe 100 or even 1,000 people complain. That's neither a lot nor a significant number. It's just the most mouthy complainers who can't be avoided and which don't reflect any "overwhelming criticism" (but who sometimes can give some valuable feedback as well of course).

The vast silent majority is just silent and enjoys the game.

I think it is common that people ask for improvements and features in forums. Why? Because they can see things they feel would make their game more enjoyable. I also think by now most understand they most likely won't happen, but some features will... you watch. So who's to say which one's stick and which one's fade away?

Several things asked were things that most likely would have been done with more time and Larian has made a movie stating they plan on supporting the game fixing bugs, adding feature and adding content, as long as they make bank on sales. So putting that nugget out there, doubly leads people to start throwing out suggestions.

I'm not sure I've been to a forum that doesn't ask for a little more.

To Halcyon: That was a very popular subject in beta and late in beta we rec'd a huge improvement to how your character and AI react to terrain hazards. Really late we had all kinds of issues with everyone just running right into the hazards. Point here is, it was all about feedback and then time. IMO they had to get that one fixed, the reaction would have been unbelievable if it was what we had for most of beta, 75% or more of deaths were just your guys acting stupid with the terrain, then being real-time, it happened so fast you died.

Which brings us to your concern of Realtime Damage in a TB game, that was reported several times as well, I'm not sure we will ever see a fix for it or if it was just no time to address. One suggestion in beta and after release was to still keep the game in TB mode for a turn after a fight is over so we can heal/buff etc. Another was when traveling (realtime) and you took damage the system goes into combat mode for one round, that way you could in TB fashion address the issue with a heal/buff.

Which reminds me of other issues fixed late, after battle what happened was all the players auto-formed back up to the leader. They didn't care about terrain. So lets say the handle the battle un-nicked. After the fight they just made a B-Line to the leader running through fire and acid and would die. We'd say the moments forming after the fight were more deadly than the battle. Again a little late tweak to that, so players don't form until the leader moves, made a huge difference.

All this stuff imo is on the table for discussion post launch. We don't know if Larian is totally satisfied or has a few things they want to double back on. It is crazy better now, but as you say there are still some issues overall.

I think this would have been covered under the OP's "technical fine tuning". That's not the type of changes they're talking about.

+1

This forum is zero different than other games, nothing to do with entitlement. For a simple example Inventory Stacking somethings do and somethings don't, people ask for every like thing to stack. Or another sorting of Items by type.

These are asked because they are somewhat standard features in many games. Sure perhaps a person or two goes off the deep-end, but to me it seems most is just noted calmly enough, because it sticks out to them as a miss.

@ Horrorscope; ALL OF THAT has been fixed already. All of it. Seriously.
There's no need to patch it up, all of that has been resolved already.

Actually, going to other forums there's a major amount of praise for PC's avoiding traps and hazardous environments by themselves, wondering why other games couldn't do so.

While that's "wow" for new players, it has somewhat a different meaning to those of us who indeed saw those issues and lost our team to that many many times.
But as I said, it has all been fixed. So there's no reason why people should still encounter it, unless their patches screwed up something... which verify would fix.

Thank you Horrorscope for the detailed explanation. I will double check to verify that status effects get cleared after battle.

However, if I avoid a trap with my main character, the 3 others following along are liable to walk right into it, sometimes taking an entirely different route due to the path finding, stumbling into other traps. Then they die or the entire party wipes in a matter of seconds. This has not been fixed. It happened to me several times yesterday under Cyseal. The only solution was to micro manage the movement of each character.

I am running the latest version of the game.

I've had the same issue with traps, but only traps. Hazards sitting around on the ground however, my characters will always avoid. In fact, I can't get them to run into them if I wanted to.

I think maybe the trap thing is working as intended. They're pretty easy to spot, so perhaps an auto avoid almost defeats the purpose of them being around? In any case, shooting them with an arrow has largely been my solution for traps.

Odd, if traps are found I find my characters are unable to trigger them, even if all 4 almost stand on top of it.
Of course unfound traps still trigger as normal.

Yes that was all part of the late improvements to hazards, the AI is so much better now. It's those you don't pick up. Boom! That is the way it should be, then you maybe dealing with real-time DOT damage.

I haven't been religiously trying to trigger traps so maybe it was just a pathing issue. Could have been I was already clicked to move to a spot and detected the trap as I was still moving, thus never altering the pathing. Maybe if I clicked after detecting the trap the pathfinding would have taken it into consideration.

Joe that is probably it. Once we see bad terrain, you have to purposely click to get our guys to move into it. Just following the mouse as you move it, they will swerve around hazards. Is there an exception or anomaly? Perhaps.

The traps I mentioned are

My character remarked she had found something. Walking across the trigger plates, with her or the others by accident, triggered them absolutely.

I believe trigger plates are not something that are automatically avoided. I had the same experience at another location with those.



I think that was probably my issue there. Not a big deal, didn't think everything through in my first post

The idea with the large plates is that they are trapped terrain. You can't walk through them so find other approaches

1. You can get one member to run through, trigger it, and warp the rest of the party to where one member is now safely at

2. Use feather fall (or teleport if you have a high health member) to bypass the terrain.

In the house that Halcyon mentioned, if you read the journal the original owners trapped the basement to keep the undead out. It would hardly be an effective trap if your party can just easily stroll over it.

This isn't the 90s anymore. A game comes out, then especially if its successful like this one is, players (rightfully) expect support, patches, DLCs, balance tweaks, UI improvements, etc. Quality post-launch support is as important as initial game design.

If you want to experience a game 'as a whole' you need to play it only after it's support cycle is over, which can take from 5 months to 5 years.

It's a pretty clever setup there, with fire on one side, trap overall, and a barrel to the other side to be able to pass. A barrel covering a poison trap.

Wait! Wait!
Dragon Age 2 wasn`t terrible because of the Fast Paced Playstyle what`s wished for. It was terrible because Bioware destroyed all of the other Things what the Fans loved on Dragon Age: Origins. The Combat System felt still like the old one, only a bit faster.
But i understand your Point. Nothing BEATS World of Warcraft Classic in the WoW Saga! In the other Hand - look at Diablo 3 - the Community hated the auction house, and now it isnï½´t anymore and the Game is much better now! But that goes too much in offtopic!

@Topic:
Someone Remember on the Relaese-Version of Divinity 2. Like i said in a other Topic, Divnity 2 is my favorte in the Divinity Series, BUT without the Patches/Expansion the Game wouldn`t be as great as it is now!(or to put it for Gamers, who didn`t like Divinity 2...without the Patches/Expansion the Game would be much more horrible...)

Improvement and new Content can good for every Game...

I just finished a fight with poisonous enemies. At the end of the fight, the ground had become poisonous under Madora. Fighting stops, normal time resumes and Madora is suddenly RAPIDLY being status affected by poison. I have to scramble, move her out and throw a heal on her, hoping it's fast enough.

That has zero to do with strategy and is all about twitch movement. Perhaps the developers can let characters stay in turn based mode, even after fighting ends, until the PLAYER decides it's time to quit. That way it's possible to end and clean up in a more tactical manner.

+1

I just want to say all forums should impliment a LIKE system. I'd like this and dozens others. It is a positive attitude that helps build a community. It would be cool if these forums supported that. Oh... am I asking for more again?

There is no threat, just asking and talking about a game we like. If the game sucked we wouldn't even bother.

What do I want:

1) SHIFT+UP/DOWN to cycle action bars at all times, so I don't have to move the mouse cursor away from whatever I am focusing on in order to click on a tiny arrow to perform this action.

2) A hotkey for delaying a character's action in combat, so I don't have to move the mouse cursor away from whatever I am focusing on in order to click on a tiny button at the side of the screen to perform this action. Normally 'w' would be used for this, but as that is taken (for WASD scrolling), perhaps 't' instead.



Why do I want it:

Because it is a major UI improvement for minimal effort.

Multiple action bars and swapping between them is not something new and revolutionary. It is a well established design pattern, and when you do it for PC with a dual mouse/keyboard setup, you should - as a matter of course - make both selection from the active action bar and cycling the action bars be possible using either input device.

Given that this is basic UI design knowledge, I can only believe that it is something that was forgotten in the rush of so many other higher priority issues to address.


Incidentally, I also consider the tiny clickable up/down buttons much too small for frequently used buttons in a good mouse interface, but that's a different issue, as people who are primarily mouse-oriented in input method might find them large enough.

@ Halcyon; See, I've had many poison pools linger after battle and that did not happen to me.
It happened ALL THE TIME during my Beta game, my retail game though; never.

Did you verify your cache yet?

The only time I had effects like this was in Black Cove, where rapidly burning wood/oil did reach my Players (and far beyond) after combat ended, but that's really the only spot...

-Staff equivalents of tenebrium weapons.

-Void magic as the caster equivalent of the tenebrium skill, or adding void spells to the game in one of the existing schools.

-More robe models. Mages have to suffer with the exact same model all the way till endgame, with the only difference being the color, of all things.

-Unique armor with unique looks. We already have unique weapons like the Sword of Holy Flame and Braccus's Axe, I'd love to see unique armors like mystical robes, demonic plate-mail, dragonscale leather, crowns and so on.

-A more in-depth dye system, where you can dye separate parts of your armor, like the actual armor and attached skirt of the female leather armor model.

- Stop seeing inside houses when you are OUTSIDE.
- Better crafting. More ingredients, A CRAFTING PANEL, and moremoremore everything. Also, it's a bit silly that crafting is bound to the points you get from leveling up. This basically makes crafting a bit pointless. Why not get grafting levels by CRAFTING? Also, recipes should be seen on the crafting screen.
- Fire on ground did, indeed, burn my characters to crisp after I had already won the fight. Didn't have time cast rain either. Badbad.
- Experience from crafting. Please.
- Stop main character chat from disappearing if characters are away from each other. Why can't they talk about the topics later?
- If I discover a recipe on my own, it should be added to the list of recipes automatically.
- A "ring" under a character you are currently pointing at. Reduces you from making those "Ooops" -clicks. Also, if you HAVE your mouse over a character in battle, make a tiny window, before it gets deselected. That will also reduce error clicks.
- Global chat does not seem to work.
- LET ME GET STRAIGHT OUT OF THE SHOP. I don't want to talk no more! I'm just shopping. Thank you.
- Always run -option. PLEASE. This one can't be hard to implement outside the battle!
- Those help-popups could come somewhere else than in the middle of the screen. Sometimes they cause you DEATH. X)
- You should be able to see if you have read a BOOK in your INVENTORY. Otherwise you may be selling books you have not read yet.


+ Fishing! Give us fishing
+ EXPANSIONS, give us EXPANSIONS!!

Those are my biggest gripes at the moment. Crafting needs some serious work, so that it can be more fun. Right now it's a bit redundant.

And seriously. I love this game. But it CAN be even better.

I'm generally pleased with the game at the moment. Of course, I just discovered it, so this feeling will probably fade as the particular issues with the game become more and more apparent.

Still, I'm not ungrateful, nor will I ever be. I'm not expecting this game to entertain me forever; entertaining me for a while is sufficient.

Nevertheless, anything which is not perfect can be improved. Which means: everything can be improved.

How is silly? You gain levels to get points to improve your character, that just how leveling work. Is just an abstraction of how gaining experience makes you better at things

Cache verified, latest game version.
It makes sense if you stand on a pool of poison, generated during battle, that you will get affected. No problem with that mechanic. The problem is that there is a lack of time to react once the battle ends and things speed up.

I can say with 100% certainty that this issue is still active.

On the plus side, the PCs do avoid dangerous terrain while path finding. That's very nice.

Well, you can workworkwork with you crafting skills, and it does not affect anything. You do not get experience. Which means, you cannot work as a, say, weapon smith, and continue your adventures later. You meet a skill ceiling, until you start working on some quests.

That's what I meant.

That applies to a lot of skills, like blacksmithing, sneaking, pickpocketing or bartering , what makes crafting so especial?

Experience from crafting would probably require a rework to how economy is managed. The problem is that through stealing you can probably make over 50000+ gold before even leaving Cyseal, that itself isn't the problem, but it would be if crafting granted experience. With 50k you could buy out all the ingredients from all the merchants in Cyseal, craft a massive amount of goods, sell them for a profit, then you'd level up through crafting experience which will reset the inventories of merchants, you'd then repeat the same process over and over and you'd be extremely overleveled, you'd be breezing through enemies not because of using the gear you crafted, but because the stats derived from your level would make killing enemies a walk in the park. The simple solution to that problem? Make crafting give very little experience so that it can't make you too powerful, which in turn doesn't provide significant benefit. Larian would probably need to do a big revamp to how crafting, crafting experience and leveling works if they ever decided to add it, right now I think there's more important things to work on (bug fixing).

I think crafting right now is fine, many think it's not useful, along with blacksmithing. If you take the time to explore it, read the books, think about your ingredients, I find that more rewarding and immersive than having a crafting window. As for crafting rewards, I personally think experience shouldn't be added on to the initial reward you already get (massive improvements to weapons and armor).

Please, please no experience or "leveling" by crafting. The last thing this world needs is more games with grinding. Grinding is the bane of all that is good in life.

Why would there be "grinding"? A lot of us enjoy crafting, but we also enjoy the benefits of crafting. Right now it's pretty meaningless.

Example: I have not yet played an RPG with crafting, that my wife has not enjoyed. Yesterday she said, that crafting is pointless and cumbersome. And I have to agree with her. The benefits of crafting are minimal here.

I liked Ultima VII type crafting, but seriously, the world has moved on. There are better ways to do it now.

I meant crafting in general, so that includes blacksmithing. Both skills are out of your normal everyday adventuring. That makes them special.

That said, disarming traps and lock picking could also reward experience. You have succeeded in your mission to open a locked door: Well done. Here's 200xp.

Having to stand somewhere and click - click - click your way through crafting 50 swords so you can unlock the next level of sword is as grindy as it gets. Allowing character levels ups via this process is even worse.

If you want to throw in a token " exploration" XP bonus to first time you craft a particular item I don't care. But if crafting items is useful in the game and crafting must be leveled up to unlock better crafting, that's grinding at its worst.

I can only agree with this one, but add that the clickable buttons are in no way big enough and definitely should be made larger - IF the game is so determined to make me click them.

I do need to aim at them with precision. And considering the whole setup isnt the best design to start with and that those arrows can be made a bit larger easily...

They really should be bigger.

The benefits of crafting are that you get a crafted item. Typically this means you get items you normally couldn't get your hands on, get items in greater quantities than you normally could, or save a lot of money. I don't craft in D:OS (I hate crafting systems in RPGs almost universally), but if those three elements aren't present I'd argue that's the problem they need to fix. Making it about accumulating experience turns crafting into a means to an end other than itself. Crafting should be about getting items, not getting experience.

I want more and better tool tips; for example what happens when you level an elemental ? The tool tip just indicates you can learn more spells/skills. Surely it does more than that ??? There are dozens of examples where the tool tip is (imho) totally in-adequate.

Funny... I would want that roofs dissapear when I hover over them so I can click inside. Having to zoom in is annoying...
Heh.

The current 200 or so (more?) aren't enough already 0_o

No... just... no.

Funnily enough with the crafting discussion I can't say a current game where I like it... AT ALL. The best I've seen was Baldur's Gate II, and there 'crafting' was *give item and gold to NPC*... heh.


No, no, no, no... did no-one learned the lessons of BG2 with it's "XP for everything" mentality causing horrible problems, and guiding people into doing things they normally wouldn't do (picklock door having key, CHECK! :/)

@ Meme; good point.

But that's the thing: You do not enjoy crafting. Persons who do are a different breed.

The one thing you do not think of is MONEY. Crafting is important, because it gives you a fair way to make money in an RPG. Gather, craft, sell. Otherwise, You might as well just turn roque when you run out of it, and steal EVERYTHING (like in Ultima VII).

That's because you are not a crafter per se. Crafting is important for people who DO enjoy it.



This I do not understand. Why does it matter? IF you enjoy picking locks, do it. IF you enjoy smashing them to bits, that should be okay too.

BTW. this is the first time I heard anyone picking locks in BG2 just for experience. :I

The point is that it's more rewarding to do things when you are (at least nominally) getting rewards for accomplishing things. You know, like in real (tabletop) RPGs.

the only thing i want tweaked is the inventory management. finding it to be a major chore. i want a simple "mark as junk" option to allow for quick sell.

plus, i want to be able to switch between characters while at a merchant, without losing what the first character has contributed.

Problem is that with all the ingredients, you don't really have a lot of interesting things to craft. Offhand, you can only make two unique weapons, and you can't make jewelry beyond the recipes offered at Crafting 1 and 2.

So if those people like crafting, why do they need a XP-carrot attached to it in order to craft?
You're statement contradicts itself.

Play BG2, play Knights of the Old Republic 2, heck play Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
All good examples why "give XP for task like hacking/lockpicking/taking mines" are EXTREMELY bad.

EDIT: If people reload their game upon finding a key, since they rather hack the door to get the reward than using the freaking key... you should know you failed as gamedeveloper.

There is no choice if the choice is XP/absolutely nothing for the exact same effort. Not to mention the hilarious BS in KOTOR2 that every major minefield is not an obstacle, but a massive XP-boost. Gamedev wants something, gamemechanics wreck it to bits.
So yes I say again; "No... just... no!"

Problem of the "modern generation"... they don't want to do anything without getting an immediate reward. Lockpicking a door to enter a room... entering the room is not enough, the lockpicking needs XP too. Crafting to get better items... no, not good enough, needs XP rewards too.
And no, I cannot think of any good tabletop DM that rewards you for doing menial things to progress the game forward. Especially if those are COUNTERING the entire premise of the game, namely choice, by making one option XP-bonus and all other options nothing. Does that fit a game which gives you half a dozen tools to solve a problem like Original Sin.

Do I hear a No?

Then make crafting give specific crafting xp like Charisma does. Problem solved.

The whole "modern generation" thing just makes you lose all credibility. Given the current renaissance of old school RPGs and the continued modding scene of Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, PS:T and so on, it's fairly evident that the "modern generation" has no problem with complicated games.

No, this is precisely the worst way. Its forced grinding. There's nothing wrong with crafting gear. I want to craft gear. I don't not want to stand at an anvil clicking for 5 hours to unlock the ability to click on something else.

Make the game like an MMO? Umm... no thanks. Go play an MMO if you want to grind mundane tasks for hours on end in a game.

The difference with charisma XP being one-shots, usually replacing XP of killing stuff otherwise (that in the end actually give more XP really) and crafting XP that can be done infitive...
Yeah, problem solved.

NOT

The question remains. Why? You are crafting and you get an item for it. Just like others pointed out, what is the point? To hit level 21 instead of 20 by end game? Or maybe 22? The game is not scaled for that, XP is finite and being a completionist in the game may reward you with a higher level at the end. Adding any sort of reusable or repeatable XP reward will destroy this balance entirely.

In terms of the comparison to Charisma XP: Charisma is an actual achievement of sorts, and is in fact 'progression XP'. It also counts as a compensation to alternative combat XP, because some of these conversations avoid a fight. Crafting is not an achievement, is repeatable, and has nothing to do with progressing through the story.

Then expand the uses of crafting. If Blacksmithing governs weapons and armor, let high-level crafting govern setting magical enhancements on gear, robes and staves. Yes, part of it is already in the game, but let your crafting level determine how strong the enchantments you lay with a Tormented Soul are. Say levels 1 and 2 give a +1 Str/Dex bonus, 3 and 4 give a +2 bonus, 5 gives a +3 bonus. Or maybe crafters can use tenebrium ore to enhance staves with void damage, or robes with tenebrium resistance. Or maybe they can craft skill books (non-mage).

Don't traditional MMOs set enchanting gear as a separate "life skill" than making items?

It's kind of broken to have a mere 15 talent tree (a lot less since you can find gear with +crafting and smithing) that will allow you to create, enchant and what not any gear in the game

That's were you make using a skill only level up the skill used. Using lockpick levels up lockpick. Using blacksmithing levels up blacksmithing. Its actually kind of odd they didn't go that way given the whole classless system. Usually those go hand in hand with skill based systems.

You do realise that in a system between 5-15 +3 is a MAJOR boost... I don't think any items besides maybe very very very endgame ones should give such insane boosts.

This isn't an MMO where begin items give +1 and we end with +512 on the endgame items.

Get out of your MMO mentality LordofBones and enjoy what Larian tries to give you... instead of trying to view it as Diablo with story. You'd enjoy the game a lot better, I assure you.

@ Brian (just appeared)...
Oh god, no, no, no, no, no... please no TES grinding 'improve on use' stuff. Less grind, not more grind!

MMO? You've never played D&D before, have you?

Plus, you'd have to sink points into crafting (and neglect another skill). Hell, restrict it with item and character level. Restrict the best recipes to those who have a BASE crafting of 5. There are tons of ways to balance this, but instantly going NOPENOPENOPENOPE is hardly an answer.

Every damn time I see the term "MMO mentality", I get the feeling that people just love throwing around derogatory buzzwords. Gear progression is part and parcel of RPG games, as part of character development. Try using a level 5 sword in Hiberheim and see how well you do compared to wielding a sword of your own level. It's present in PnP, it's present in BG2, it's present in Arcanum, Gothic, Ultima, IWD, Divinity games...

D&D 2nd edition is 8-18 (regularly, with overstep to 25). 10 points, looks familiar.
Also, it was extremely scarce on giving stat points... so your point with D&D is...?

Tell me what other ability will give the same boost as +3 to a stat... heck even on multiple items on your idea. There is none, indeed.

There are tons of way to balance GOD ITEMS. Uhm, nope?

All I want them to do is change the wording of "easy" setting to "normal"

Seems like that would stop a lot of complaining.

2e never gave you stat points at all. Want to get your wizard to cast 9th level spells? Better hope you roll 18 Int, plus your secondary stat. It's actually even a plot point with a Thayvian Zulkir in the Villain's Lorebook, who was seeking ways to get that vaunted 18 Int. Larian's using a hybrid of 2e and 3e, with ability points and feats plus stat caps.

And I have a level 15 amulet right now that gives +2 Str, +1 Int and 30% to two resistances and +1 loremaster. There's a fire skill that gives +2 Perception too.

I even mentioned gating items, so that only the most powerful items from the highest level characters could benefit from the most powerful enchantments. Christ on a stick, there's already a talent that gives you free healing when you hit something that bleeds, and up to 50% to all resistances except tenebrium, and you can get that by level 9 or 10.

If you want to talk about OP, then look at the talents and crafting possibilities in place. My Sword of Holy Flame, smithed with 4 BS, is vastly more powerful than anything I've ever found in game so far.

All Larian has to do is decide how they want to handle crafting and how to gate items with regard to Blacksmithing and crafting. Or, hell, just ignore the +3 thing and have higher level crafters be able to put random status effects on weapons.

I know. Grind. OTOH it does make a whole lot more sense than randomly leveling up and suddenly getting better at underwater basket weaving by failing about with your metal toothpick. Maybe a hybrid system where you level and you get "general" points based on INT, and the other ones have to be spend on class skills.... but then you have classes which D:OS doesn't. No perfect system I guess. I just hate dipping into points I could spend on class skills to do crafting. Maybe I can just create a NPC in hall of heros to do it for me?

And there is the true reason for the suggested change; a desire to have cake and eat it too. Not having to sacrifice for crafting... no you should be good in combat AND get crafting.

Well, now that the birdy is out of the cage, I think I can consider the case closed.

(Also XP is a representation of learning, and getting smarter through combat, quests and exploration makes a lot more sense than from 1 hour bunnyhopping in Morrowind)

@ LordofBones; wait a second... weren't you the person who stated before that above level 2 blacksmithing was worthless. Where does this 4BS sword come from then?

What good is cake if I can't eat it D:

Huh? I never said that. I never even mentioned anything about blacksmithing other than my 4 BS comment.

Not really, how making 100 cheap iron daggers somehow makes me qualify to make an armor made of dragon bones? Is still a pretty big abstraction, AND grindy, so is objectively inferior.

That is actually the best way to do skills. It makes your characters unique. Of course there would have to some sorts of limits, since no person should be able to excel in everything. That's where ES -games go wrong. You can do everything to the limit on one character, if you spend enough time.

But that kind of major change is unlikely now.

It's funny that people who don't like crafting are the most vocal against changing it to something that crafters would enjoy more.

I want the cake. And to eat it too. Uneatable cake is pointless, I say!

I like crafting, your idea is awful

I don't make expressions XD

@ Bones; Then I guess I got you confused with someone else.

@ MogwaiX; Actually I would say that's one of the worst ways to do skills. And all games who do use it are proof enough for me why. It never works as intended, makes grindiness and in the end is purely unfun. You grind to max... and then what? You grind another skill! Oh the joy... other game plz!

Also, giving XP to a repeatable event isn't something that would just affect crafters, so yes, of course other people are going to chime in. Did you had any *other* suggestions than that for crafters (besides 'we need even more ingredients in random loot!' which I am not quite sure crafters would be fond of either)?
Also, as I always say to people, if you need XP to do something, be it killing a foe (lot of discussion in PoE on this) or crafting; YOU DON'T LIKE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Don't try to pass it off like you do, since then you wouldn't need the extra carrot to do so.

PS. The cake is a lie, sorry.

Fair enough.

I disagree, though.

I do like crafting. So much so that I like to spend some time with it. For me it is not "grindy" (MMO term there...), it's entertaining and rewarding. I like things that make you feel that you get better at them as you do and practise them. You know, kinda like in real life.

Some of us don't craft because we want to get MAXLEVELGREAT. Some of us do it because it's fun, if the rewards are good enough, AND you get a sense of moving forward. Right now that 'sense' is partially missing.

Gaming for me isn't about HAVETOBEMAXLEVELGREAT, it's about having fun.

And the cake is real, I've tasted it!

That's what the cake comment meant, that user thought that people arguing wanted MAX level in everything and that's why advocated for its on way to level it so you could spend point in other things and have high everything, you are keeping the cake (points on crafting) and eating it to (points on whatever else).
By constantly writing that you want the cake and eat it too you are saying that you don't appreciate crafting for its utility or the fun you have with it and is about min-maxing. Did you genuinely didn't knew what the metaphor meant?
You know what else is like real life? No magic, Larian please delete magic

Good for you.

It does still raise the question why you suggested they should give XP for crafting then...
Cause; you suggested that.

Nonono. I would be enjoying the crafting that takes nothing out of my normal adventuring life. And get better at adventuring with adventuring.

Example:

I fight a battle. I level up. Now I'm suddenly better at crafting (because I decided so), even though I only won a fight and completed some quests, which should logically not affect my crafting skills.

Wouldn't it be better that my crafting skill grows as I craft, not as I fight battles or complete quests?

That lower response... Now THAT'S a straw man.

I have to ask again, how is different to most of the abilities, killing a rat and gaining bartering makes perfect sense to you?


Not really, you are arguing that is better because is like real life, it follow the same logic
p>q
q>r
ergo
p>r
Where q is like real life, r is better and p would be crafting as its own skill or non-magic, the premise you introduced lead both to being better

I never said that it did. I'm talking about crafting here. Not bartering.


Yes it is. I was explaining my own answer with an allegory, real life. You are dismissing my answer by arguing against it with superficially similar proposition, thus suggesting that your proposition is logically somehow against my answer.

But we are not getting anywhere with this.

Well why? is applicable to bartering, limiting it to crafting is arbitrary

So you just wrote that to remind us how real life work?

I think rupuka is trying to show you the fallacy of your original allegory.

Is you want crafting to be more like "real life", you'd have to separate it into several branches. For example if you know how to tan hides, and you practice tanning hides, you can potentially make better hides faster, but it won't have any bearing on your ability to sew clothes for cloth armor.

This means instead of Crafting you'd need to have Tanning, Sewing, etc.

This adds unnecessary complexity to the game.

Another example is how unrealistic it is that you just find fruits and vegetables and meat everywhere and you don't need to refrigerate them to keep them fresh. It would be much more realistic if you have to grow and harvest them and they can rot. However, this game isn't designed to be Farmville.

Apparently Larian are not entirely adverse to the grind. From Beyond Divinity: