First, let me premise that if someone at Larian may find the thread title a bit familiar, it's because I already started a discussion very similar on the Steam board /even if in that case it was almost instantly drowned by other threads).
Still, it's a topic I care about, so here we are...


The more I play around with this game, the more I convince myself this is going to be an instant classic.
The one, only, single feature I don't like to *any* degree is the randomized loot.

I really, really don't think it fits this kind of game.
Beside not liking it in general as a mechanic, not even in hack'n slash games, I think it's something that simply fails to reward a player in a commensurate manner in occasion of specific accomplishments.
Sure, finding an overpowered item randomly can be fun for a bit, especially in early game.
But with hand-placed loot for special items, you feel like you've earned it when you find something rare. The developers put it right there because they knew it'd be hard to get, so getting it is very satisfying.
Not to mention how with randomized loot you could keep getting shitty loot even from the most tightly guarded/hidden treasure, if you're unlucky.

Think about those artefacts in Baldur's Gate II and how lame it would be to replace them with randomized rewards that sometime may not even be worth the effort.

On a side note, it's also all sorts of annoying to reload a save game for whatever reason, repeat a battle/re-loot a container just to find entirely different stuff, not just because it's a bit immersion breaking, but also because it opens up the game to some silly exploits (i.e. if you're a OCD freak you can keep reloading before opening a chest until your luck strikes and you find something extremely valuable).

I know for a fact there will be people who disagree with me, but my opinion is:
dear Larian people, for future games/expansions you should definitely consider the idea to switch to properly designed/hand-placed loot for each area, leaving randomness just to the so-called "trash loot".

well I like the randomness of items, though yeah its tempting to reload. maybe items should be randomly generated as soon as you enter an area rather then when you open the container?

Well, I would still not be a fan, but it would surely be an improvement, yeah.
It would at least discourage exploiting compulsive reloads.

And just to be clear: I *don't* reload compulsively, but rationally I know I could and it can be tempting.

I personally would also much, much, much prefer fixed loot in both shops and the game world rather than random (and scaled... ugh) loot, and I know at least a couple other people have been vocal about this on the forums as well. I've also seen a lot of forum posts that have complained about issues (especially re: scaled loot in shops) that would be fixed by the proper non-random loot system you describe. Anyway, I agree with your conclusion:



But as you realize, it's too late to change this for D:OS. Also, I'm not sure whether Larian actually prefers randomized/scaled loot, or simply didn't have the resources to hand-place loot throughout the game world (which would be understandable). Either way, we can always hope for improvement with the next game...

I'm 100% in agreement with the OP. As a matter of fact it's not only the randomness of the loot that pisses me off: it's also the insane amount of magic/unique items that pollute any corner of the game. Finding a magic item every time you crush a couple of skeletons simply spoils the sense of achievement for finding something worthy in a place hard to reach, discourages the use of crafting skills and adds an unhealthy amount of busywork to the game.

Don't reload over and over. Problem solved.

If you are concerned about other people doing it, why? How does it affect you?

If it is really a problem for you, I am sure someone will mod in hand place loot at some point.

All they need to do is tweak that as they already have the feature implemented. Some containers no matter how many times you reload have an extremely low possibility (if they do at all) to result in anything but common items (ie ham, wheat, cups, etc...).

They can still keep their random loot style and just categorize the types of items that can be present in any given type of container.

I think they know that already though and the way that you see it now is as is intended. /shrug

Dear Tuco,

I think you're 100% wrong. I could expand on that, but there's no reason to because we're both giving our opinions with absolutely no evidence.

Signed,
An honest feedback provider.

Or they just didn't have time to hand-place loot in the world, considering the size of the game. Who knows... they ain't saying.

Well, considering this style of loot system is present in every game they have made (Divine Divinity, Beyond Divinity, Divinity 2, and now Divinity:Original Sin), I would say the odds are not in your favor.

I don't mind the random loot, though obviously it isn't entirely random. Some chests almost guarantee legendary items, for example.

The cool thing about random loot is that every play-through will be different. I think I like that freshness over knowing that killing boss X will drop the "Sword of Sorrows" every time.

Reloading and whatever - no need to fix it. Let people play how they like.
Same for the leech/come-back-kid combo. Think it breaks the game? Don't use it!!

A few placed items might be nice, especially if backed by random loot. Eventually though, someone will get better random loot and criticism would ensue because of that. Totally dismissing random loot would be a poor idea.

Eh, still got mods.

You are being selfish and wanting the game to only cater to your form of experience. You didn't actually put any of the benefits of the random loot in: Which shows you are not aware of them.

Your point about 'artefacts' in BG2 not being here is fictional because there are in fact fixed items within the game. Both spellbooks and valuable gear items. It speaks to the fact you're either not paying attention or have barely played the game.

The good thing is you did mention the problem you have: "It fails to commensurately reward the player". You expect your games to reward you in a way that 'feels good'. In a way that is psychologically satisfying and generates a triggered dopamine response. You are compulsively searching for the reward, the incentive in order to play your games instead of actually experiencing the game as a holistic experience.

What the randomness of the loot does is take the focus -off- of the reward and -off- of the fixed aspect of each character being completely pre-planned and puts it to a more entropic, more naturalistic way of playing. Where your journey is simply a journey and the details are your own. You get that killer orange amulet from a specific challenging encounter and you'll remember that fondly. You'll also remember the time that a particular enemy dropped a bunch of useless things and have a conversation about that. What you won't be able to do is -know ahead of time- the outcome of your journey. You won't ever be able to predict it, you will always remain surprised, and each time you want to come back to the journey the details and events of your experience will be different.

And there's more. The variance in loot allows for fluctuations in power amongst the characters in your party. This incentivizes tactical diversity...the right kind of incentivization. Of course this really makes OCD players sad because they often want to use one character excessively and plan around a 'perfect stratagem' with little deviance.

You're right in one respect: This game fucks with OCD people heavily. It makes winning conversations virtually random. It encourages you to fail at things to uncover actual content. It very much incentivizes just -playing things through- INSTEAD of reloading. Why are you so obsessed with that particular instance of loot when there are so many other ways to accomplish your goals WITHIN the game.

Your whole argument has been repeated ad nauseam and every person that posts this garbage has the same problem: They don't have any concept of anyone but themselves. They want the game to be THEIR experience rather than the wholly beautiful emergent narrative game that exists. It's an unfortunate consequence of the last decade of terribly manipulative games you've played...and it's time you stop letting the psychological predations of manipulative game design inform your sensibilities.

I'd suggest you go play the original X-com: Ufo Defense as a jumping off point to understand the intricacies of emergent narrative. Then play a bit of Ultima 7 to understand the type of world building and specific details that are utilized in this game. You simply show a shallow, dopamine-high focused approach to game playing that will never reward you properly.

It's the journey not the reward.

That's completely mutual.


It's not just a case where you didn't solve the problem, you didn't even address it.


It mostly shows I don't recognize them as benefits, and I won't because they aren't.

Agree.
Randomized loot is good in a game with respawning enemies, such as the Diablo serie. Not good and totally unfair in a game with a fixed number of encounters.

I'm sorry but... What the hell are you talking about?
There are just a bunch of Unique items and most of them aren't even assured drop but they are still tied to random chances to obtain them.


Wow, that's... pretty much the opposite of the truth.
What I like about fixed loot is precisely that offers reliability and well designed and balanced items over compulsive rewarding at every step that trivializes the uniqueness of every encounter and treasure.


This is hilarious. You just mentioned two of the games I replayed the most over 30 years of gaming and you are using the patronizing tone of someone who want to teach me how they played.
You could namedrop even Jagged Alliance 2 as you were on the topic, for even more hilariousness.

Absolutely!

The problem you stated and the one I was commenting on was this:

So, basically you think all of Larians games are bad then?

Haaaaaai guys. 0/

Will just copy-paste my take on the randomized loot system in DOS:
The loot system is pretty boring. I don't even mean the randomized loot in general, but rather that you have little to no variation on what you can have on the items. A belt will always have the same modifiers and nothing unique - not even legendary ones. Would have loved to have some unique effects on legendary gear, other than just more stats or being able to cast flare... That is pretty meh. Immunity to stunned/poison etc is okay, but if it's the only modifier you can hope to see, it's not very exciting either.

Following that point, my fix would be to add more interesting affixes the gear can spawn with, and more affixes to certain slots in general.

For istance, from what I've seen there is not a single non-int requiring Sarong in the entire game. And those can only spawn with int and/or willpower and/or bodybuilding and/or initiative and/or resistances. NOTHING ELSE. Boring as hell. I had a level 9 legendary sarong that was entirely the same as the level 18 one I found later, with the exception to have 1 int more and a few % more. I don't find that is an interesting "progression".

In particular rings and amulet should have WAY, WAY, WAY more unique modifiers. Why can't they spawn with +2h modifier for instance? Rings with strength, amulets with constitution? The most interesting ring I've stumbled upon has "immunity to stun", which was awesome indeed, but that's all I've seen in over 80+ hours. Again, "cast flare / cure wounds / fortify" is pretty boring and weak.
Diablo III was justifiably criticized for its incredible dull (and under powered) legendary loot when it was released. Look at it now, unique effects on mass and interesting modifiers. This is the only reason Divinity loses a bit of its exploring appeal towards the later part of the game, as you get less interested in loot ("why bothers, it's the same anyway").

Ignoring a problem doesn't solve it nor address it.
Beside, you are implicitly assuming this feature comes into play just with deliberate "save scumming", when there can be several instances where the reload is actually forced upon the player by unwanted circumstances (crash, unexpected death and so on).

Again, my point was concerning one of the supporting premises you used.

As for the other issue, that "problem" would be very specific and likely not to occur as such. That is, you would have to crash at the moment you opened the chest and saw what it contained (loot is randomed on opening the chest). That would be a very specific moment of a crash and to be honest I have never had that happen in my game. How often does it happen exactly at in that timing?

As for an unexpected death? What does that have to do with loot? If your party wiped right when you saw an item, well... sorry... you lost the fight, you don't get the prize. /shrug

I'm not a fan of the current loot/itemization system. It can create vastly different experiences between two games, and not in a good way. It also clearly encourages and rewards both save-scumming and container hoarding (why open that chest now when you don't really need it, since the contents will scale to your level later on). None of those are good things.

You folks arguing with Tanist should know he'll continue to argue that the loot system is perfectly fine until his dying breath. It's his thing every time the subject comes up. Eventually he'll fall back on the "this is how all Larian games are done, so love it or leave it" line (if he hasn't already). He'll also suggest using a mod to fix any issues you have with the loot system, without actually knowing what that even involves.

I definitely have to disagree. Maybe a better randomized loot system would be nice, but completely removing it would kill replayability for me. Part of the fun is waiting to see what kind of loot I'm gonna get from those big chests, and if I know what it's gonna be, it's not fun anymore.

For example, on my current playthrough, I opened a barrel after fighting the lighthouse fight, and found a I thought it was really cool to find that there and made that playthrough unique. If that item was always there, it would be cool the first time, but after that I couldn't care less.

I'm fine with some hand-placed stuff, which there already is, and maybe wouldn't mind if they reduced finding so many magical items everywhere. They could maybe sharpen the randomization curve and encourage better items after the boss fights, but removing randomization altogether would be a pretty big mistake I think.

I don't have a huge problem with the loot being random, although I do think more encounters should be peppered with static drops to guarantee that someone's difficult battle doesn't "randomly" end up in utter disappointment. I do wish, however, that containers were not vulnerable to save-scumming and level manipulation.

I also don't personally feels that replayability would suffer if vendor inventories became more static. They can (and probably should) change as a character levels to provide more and more advanced equipment, but their current setup encourages (and rewards) save-scumming as well.

Piss off Troll.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.
The point isn't that I don't get the loot I wanted if I die.
The point is that with this system I may end not getting that loot when I win, after a reload.

the problem with this approach is that there isnt much player customization, devs would just put the plate for warrior cloth for mage forcing a fixed patch

its not better in the end

that said i agree with you this random loot is not acceptable, but there are many ways to fix it leaving at least some sort of randomness

it just has to not be full random but piloted someway, leaving some randomness but also having some bounds

I understand that, I even commented on that aspect.

Can you describe some actual events where this result would occur and can you reason that it would occur at any frequency to warrant a serious objection?

I mean, if this issue has a rare occurrence and that is the basis of support for your complaint, well... I mean... lets be reasonable here, how often is that going to be a problem?

They already do to an extent. This is why you normally don't see quality gear in fish racks/barrels, etc... It is also why you tend to see at least some level of quality from chests, and better.

Now if you are saying that the loot should be tailored to your party, well... who decides what you really need or want? What if I was planning on adding some ranged to my character, but was waiting until I came across some gear that would support it? This is why the whole tailored approach is not a good solution in a open skill system game like this.

While I think it would be reasonable to tune the drops to avoid getting empty chests too often, I don't think anything needs to be done to tailor loot for the very reasons I explained.

- Both main characters being low on health and suffering from damage-over-time status effects right after a fight concludes and switches to real-time, with the loot still on the ground.

- Failing/forgetting to save between obtaining desired loot and stumbling across a scenario where you need to reload. Could even be as simple as recovering items from a chest and then two steps later stumbling into an unseen trap that wipes out your two main characters.

Probably other scenarios as well. I didn't want to spend more than a second thinking about it.

Well, actually an ideal scenario would be one where you wouldn't just have *a* plate for your warrior, but several different ones, tuned to be slightly considerably different but more or less of equal value, just to suit different builds. And so on for each class.

And let me repeat what I posted elsewhere (and yes, I'm essentially quoting myself, which I realize is a bit impolite but since I'm arguing the same topic across different boards...)

What really surprise me, every time the itemization topic is argued, are people who try to claim that randomness does incentive "replayability", when in my personal experience it's always been the opposite.
When I think a RPG is good enough to deserve a second playthorugh, the last thing I want is the "thrill" to end up with an entirely different itemization and having to improvise from there, honestly.
In fact, on the opposite, I love to plan ahead things like "I'm going to build a party where the warrior uses weapon X and the cleric weapon Y" (i.e. BGII/ToEE) or "I'm going with a dex build based on that weapon and that armour" (i.e. Dark Souls), maybe even having it as an influence on the order I will address content.

Games like TES or Borderlands, on the other hand... I always feel like I got nothing, as "special items" don't feel special at all; to me they feel just like a foggy blob of random crap that can happen in your hands anywhere, at any time, by mere chance.

yes it would be good this way
but like you said its ideal, utopistic
you know devs arent usually good players right?
they would end up putting those item *they* think to be good while probably a good player would want the item with statX+statZ they never thoght of

some randomness solve the problem of having devs thinking of every combination



well in some game you could build characters based on items, but thanx god this isnt the case

dunno why we are talking about replayability btw

This line makes me laugh every time. It's like you're saying someone's retarded and have the rebuttal being "that's the same with his dad!".

So it's in the genes...got it.

Context is an amazing thing, though I wouldn't let that get in the way of a good circle jerk with your buddy there.

Piss off Troll.

Fixed items exist. They are not simply random drops. Maybe you should search a little better.

Your entire response just reeks of a rigid selfish thinker. "This is hilarious", "Wow, That's prrety much the opposite of the truth", "What the hell are you talking about". You use derisive turns of phrase to try and devalue your speaker without utilizing cognitively sound arguments to defend your position. Unfortunate that in 'thirty years' you haven't learned how to be an empathic person. Hence why I was so 'patronizing' towards you: You showed your true colors right from the start. Like everyone that's held this position you have a very rigid way of thinking about games and are obessively, compulsively focused around everything being fixed. Planned. Predetermined.

Just step back and examine the way you think about the game more deeply. Stop looking at the surface of "I DID THIS THING AND I WANT A SUPER SPECIAL REWARD". Look at the -encounter- difficulty as the reward and the loot as the tools that you utilize to achieve the next encounter. Stop expecting everything to be able to be planned and expected and enjoy the fact that a journey is supposed to surprise you. It's supposed to be unpredictable. You're an adventurer dealing with random events...why would every adventure be the same?

You're obsessed with being 'appropriately rewarded for the encounter'. You think that random loot is somehow 'compulsive' but the only people who act compulsively over random loot are OCD mentality types. Most people can accept their rewards and move on. Do you identify every item after it drops too? Imagine a world where you wait till HOURS of gameplay occur before you identify what items you received... a world in which it's not the reward mechanism that you enjoy but the actual game.

Jagged alliance 2 is a terrible representation of emergent narrative gameplay. You didn't even understand why I cited those games and showed yet more of your cognitive failures because you believe every 'tactical squad game' is somehow the same.

You've proven your mindset yet again right here.

You want to feel -special and rewarded-. You want that special and rewarding feeling to come from pre-planning. You hate the vagaries of chance. You play games to be in control of the outcome and you want that outcome to be something you can predict.

Instead of acknowledging it's a player problem (You being the player with the problem) you seek to make the game conform to your rigid ideas of the way things should be presented to you. So instead of examining your own expectations and behaviour and psychological motivations, you simply decry it a failing and expect it to be changed.

You should re-read what you just wrote and how self-absorbed it comes off.

I'm going to double quote this because you actually specifically said you wanted to do something that MULTIPLE people have said the game is TRYING to avoid.

" I love to plan ahead things like "I'm going to build a party where the warrior uses weapon X and the cleric weapon Y" (i.e. BGII/ToEE) or "I'm going with a dex build based on that weapon and that armour" (i.e. Dark Souls), maybe even having it as an influence on the order I will address content."

This is what the game is trying to curtail. It wants each adventure to be different so instead of your -grand strategy- working from the start of the game you have to utilize the various tactical opportunities the game presents. The randomization ensures you can never do the thing you want...because the game wants you to try what's best for your situation. Not mold your situation into what's best for you.

As i've said: It's a player problem, not a game design problem. Stop trying to change a game feature other people love to conform to your OCD issues.

Oh, yay, new thread, same topic.

Honest feedback: Honesty and the internet have proven to be quite mutually exclusive.

I feel that the current system of loot, as it is, is adequate and requires no more than some fine-tuning at most. But I am not about to start trying to convince the "non-believers" to share my views.

Definitely agree with this, and I think it has a huge effect on the random loot as a whole. I don't like entirely random loot in games, but it's made worse by everything being the same. Even as early as the end of the 2nd map, every unidentified Sarong drop meant less to me than a Scroll I might be able to get some use out of. Same with Belts, Bracers, and various weapon types.

Which isn't to say those shouldn't drop, but with some added modifiers they could at least be interesting.

Anyways I don't really mind the random loot stuff. I don't like it, but I accept it as a different way to make a game. I do mind it in the shops, however. I feel that is kinda unnecessary, especially with as difficult as it is to get stuff like Dyes in the early game. It's not a huge deal because I save scum'd so whatever.

I will say beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I couldn't save scum I would have enjoyed the game way less. It's great that people like the random take-what-you-get system, but I am absolutely in to min-maxing and couldn't care less about that. Especially when there's such a black and white line to which modifiers are good and which aren't. There's no reason both ways to play the game can't exist.

Let's face it, Erragal, beside being generally very unpleasant, obnoxiously patronizing, incredibly unaware of how ridiculous you can sound every time you try to act as if you had a superior understanding about any topic -across several forums, apparently; see your previous ramblings about what constitutes good writing- you also have the typical habit of rabid fanboys of seeing just what you want to see and constantly distorting reality to fit your bias.


That was quite obvious. The problem is: it shouldn't, because it doesn't work for the best. it trivializes itemization, it doesn't make it more interesting.


I explained perfectly clearly why i mentioned jagged Alliance 2.
Not to mention your whole rant was baseless garbage, since Ultima VII wasn't a case of "emergent gameplay" at all. If anything it's the very model of plot-driven RPG.
Oh, and it didn't even make any use of random loot, by the way, if not for minor things ("trash loot" as argued in the OP).

But what really matters is that I probably played it far more than you and I'm arguably the last person you should teach around about "going back to the old RPGs".
Maybe you are the one who should actually play it more and learn from it.

On top of that, playing and knowing that game would still be irrelevant in relation to the topic at hand.

I agree, it is a ridiculous argument. And yet, surprisingly, Tanist has used it in every loot argument from here to the Steam forums.


I dislike that save-scumming is both possible and rewarding. However, I also feel that the loot system should be improved so that players aren't feeling like they're screwed without save-scumming. I would love to see itemization at a point where players don't even feel like they need save-scumming, and for save-scumming to be removed out of the equation (and not even missed).

Save scumming is a side issue, as far as I'm concerned.
I don't like it, I'd love for the game to address the problem (i.e. fixed seeds generated once for playthrough at very least) but I have a problem with anonymous, generic, randomly generated loot that goes beyond the potential exploitation of save-scumming.

I simply really, really don't like compulsive rewarding at every step in RPGs.
I like when special items are unique, carefully dosed in numbers, deliberately placed, designed to stand out and properly balanced (or, in some rare case, deliberately unbalanced, just because it's fun).

And that's why reading Erragal trying to guilt-trip me with silly attempts of public blaming about my "dopamine-triggered approach to looting" strikes me as twice as weird.
Not just because it's an idiotic attitude in general, but specifically because the accusation is the exact opposite of the truth.

For the most part, that system is in place to limit quality to a given reward area. Only in places that would seem reasonable (Treasury Room) or off of a difficult/special encounter.

There are some areas where you see an odd amazing reward come from a place you wouldn't reason to be normal (ie a legendary sword in a crate, barrel, etc...), though to be honest... I don't seem to find the quality items in such locations all that often. Most are in reasonable locations and from such encounters.

Some tuning may be required to achieve what you desire and I am sure that will be the goal of many mods in the future.

The majority of my save scumming could have been removed just by there being a Dye seller in Cyseal who sold unlimited amounts of each color. Don't feel that's the most game breaking of requests~

Also skill books. Once I hit 18 I started save scumming the Emporium on level ups for equipment because I really wanted to min-max. In the desert I save scummed the Spider boss as my mage still had a Lvl 4 Robe as the best find and I found that silly. I did it here and there throughout the game for sure, but majority was definitely shops.

Some of it could have been avoided with less crappy modifiers, and I would definitely prefer there being guaranteed equipment types in certain places. Can still have random, improved, modifiers. Have Loic drop a robe, Diederic a 2HSword, etc. To me just a little addition like that would go a long way to making some bosses/treasure more meaningful. Like, I will probably replay the game eventually, and I won't go out of my way to hunt down the secrets ever again because why bother? They are all but guaranteed to be junk.

Really just don't want to see Rogue armor with +STR ever again, though.

Did you even read this before you hit submit? I'm going to do this for you once. Consider it a free credit hour.

"That was quite obvious. The problem is: it shouldn't, because it doesn't work for the best. it trivializes itemization, it doesn't make it more interesting."

See, verbiage is the key to saying a whole lot of nothing (The proverbial hot air). Deconstructing the first sentence "That was quite obvious." Sarcastic depreciation of the opposing individual's point of view: Contains no factual content and is a turn of phrase to imply that the speaker already knew something without ever showing cognition about the subject by delving deeper into critical analysis.

Next line of tripe: "The problem is: it shouldn't, because it doesn't work for the best." Highly nonspecific meandering propositional phrases. Purely opinion with no discernable rational cognitive platform on which your point of view rests. Inherently rigid and linear thought pattern as it shows no real data in which to have your opinion be countered. Intentionally non-specific to avoid being addressed with factual hooks. Gives opinion but offers no rational groundwork for the reader to relate to. Pushes the narrative into an ideological space as outside viewers can only agree or disagree with you on that framework as you've shown no logical progression.

The last line of this particular pantomime: "it trivializes itemization, it doesn't make it more interesting."
Statement of apparent opinion. You use the word trivialize but provide no deductive reasoning work as to how you arrived at this conclusion. When presenting a strong, controversial opinion it's customary if you are arguing from a place of discourse to provide your rationale as a courtesy; attempts to provide strong opinions with no details is in contemporary (2014) parlance 'trolling'. A conclusion with no data is a conclusion derived from emotion and intuition alone. Intuition is a viable thought process only when you can then work backwards along your train of thought to reproduce the rational cognitive work that produced it. Very similar to your last line in that you make statements of extreme opinion with no data.

Now lets examine your personal attack of me in detail so we can deconstruct the ways in which you failed to understand the information available to you, and how next time you can better construct your personal attacks on the internet.

"Let's face it, Erragal, beside being generally very unpleasant, obnoxiously patronizing, incredibly unaware of how ridiculous you can sound every time you try to act as if you had a superior understanding about any topic -across several forums, apparently; see your previous ramblings about what constitutes good writing- you also have the typical habit of rabid fanboys of seeing just what you want to see and constantly distorting reality to fit your bias."

One single sentence. So, the whole idea that you would criticize my understanding of composition and style (A weird obsessive reference to a post on a completely different topic...that OCD coming out in very unsubtle ways) in this amateurish run-on sentence is laughable.

Looking more towards the details of your 'content' is more sinister. You look at very detailed arguments of the merits of a particular system as 'rabid fanboyism'. There are real details you could actually attempt to argue with me about.

As an example a realistic argument that HAS been raised; an alternate version of events where you approach this as if my point of view even existed: "Erragal, do you believe that the game already offers a superflous number of tactical options w/respect to scrolls/arrows/skill diversity that the benefits of all this randomized loot may be lost in the shuffle?"

"Excellent point Tuco. I'd say that's why I agree with many people who are asking more for a slight uptick in a few named items at certain points and some adjustments to the way the game seeds things so they don't feel quite as random; On the other hand I believe if you look at the game from an emergent narrative point of view instead of trying to lock it in the box marked "Scripted RPG epic with fixed itemization" your opinion is informed from you will be able to enjoy the diversity of experiences randomization provides both in rewards and in the tactical necessity of adaptation that results."

That's a world that exists, sir. It is your inability to see outside a rigid framework that results in the garbage you choose to spew instead. You want what you want and details that would get in the way of your point of view are shadowy blips in the rearview mirror as cognitive dissonance wills you forward.

So forgive me if I sometimes seem like I'm 'talking down to you'. It's hard not to think poorly of someone that presents themselves the way you've chosen to and ignores data in favor of impulse (All of which has been detailed here).

PS: Ultima VII is highly relevant as the non sequential nature of the quests as well as the high interactivity are a huge component of emergent narrative. Interactivity is valuable for reinforcement of a player's connection with his game world. When you combine interactivity with randomization you create a world that can create original and organic experiences without the input of a designers prior intentions. It's important to understand how these elements all coalesce in order to inform the player about his place/experience within the game world; how they cement his experiences as uniquely personal without bragging about it.

Conversely no matter how many repetitions of the game you went through it's never actually telling you that it's doing this. To assume that you would understand how it works because you've played it the most is a logical fallacy. You must actually think about the way these mechanics interact and communicate with the player before you'll value them.

Talk about much ado about nothing...

I wish you could go back to read your first reply to me in this very thread, read once again,and then be at *least* a bit ashamed about how you are crying over the fact that I wouldn't be respectful of my interlocutor right now.


It's a tragic parade of you being pompous, patronizing, judgemental, confrontational and above all ignorant, ridiculously wrong in your assumptions and comically unaware of it.

And then you act surprised and almost outraged when I point how unpleasant can be to interact with you.
And please, let me point that being so verbose and long-winded in making vacuous remarks doesn't make them more grounded in reality.

I.E.
"Oh oh oh, see? Verbiage is the key, sarcastic depreciation, blah blah blah".
Dude, I just pointed I don't care what they wanted to do, I care about the fact I don't think it worked.
And I spent several posts arguing more in detail WHY I think this system "trivializes itemization". Just because you failed to acknowledge them it doesn't mean I must be committed to work full time to offer you a recap at every single reply.

You also didn't make "very detailed arguments" in favour of this system as you are claiming. You ranted, in your usual long-winded way, of tangent arguments like different games and emerging gameplay that hardly relate to the loot system.

No, Ultima VII is NOT relevant for two main reasons.
First, I never argued against "the non sequential nature of quests" in D: OS. If anything is one of my favourite things about the game.
Second, Ultima VII didn't have randomized itemization (and actually barely any itemization at all)so your point about the strength of the game's structure fails completely to address and support the claim that randomized loot is an added value for this kind of RPG.

I'm used to being ignored, but... I quote myself and add: VERY much ado about nothing.

I agree, all of this really can be handled via mods. I mean seriously, the game is already out, it is a feature that is already set and has been around with these games since the company began. People have voiced their opinion, the issue is done. Anyone wanting change can put their money where their mouth is and mod it, otherwise all they are doing here is trying to create drama.

And there we go.





Tanist, maybe you'd be interested in (to use your phrase) "putting your money where your mouth is" and showing everyone how to handle this through mods? It just seems like it might be easier and more effective than trying to convince everyone they don't want this every time a thread on the subject pops up.

Piss off troll.

Actually, there's nothing particularly unhealthy about arguing after a release about what you like and what you don't about a game.
That, at least, generally speaking. Until you have someone like Erra charging like a raging bull and throwing at you not-so-subtle insults and patronizing remarks just to stress that he really, really doesn't like to hear about your opinion.

Some have issues, yes. Your opinion isn't the problem. In fact, I don't even think you discussing it is a problem. I don't have a problem with your discussion. In the end, this issue is more of one that needs to be solved through mods. So discussion is good, as long as it stays logical and honest. Not all of these do.

So that's a "no" on your whole "putting your money where your mouth is" advice, then?

This sums up my own opinion rather nicely. I haven't save-scummed to get better loot, but I *have* done it to get shopkeepers to sell decent skillbooks and I'm not at all ashamed of it; a varied skill set makes this game infinitely more enjoyable and I think it would be asinine to let a game cheat me out of having fun with its enjoyable features due to bad dice rolls. But between chests, enemy drops, and shops I'll often go long stretches where I sell the treasure I can't use in order to accumulate gold I can't use which, to me, constitutes a flawed loot system.

That's my two cents, and thus have I emptied my pockets of everything left I'm willing to share on the topic. When all's said and done this a minor blemish on an otherwise great game, and I'd rather spend my time playing it than continuing to argue with people who are resolute at best and utterly unpleasant at worst.

Tanist, learn some new vernacular and get off your high horse. The only one appearing to be a "troll" in the interactions between you two, is you.

Looks like he achieved his troll and got you all invloved.


Gyson has a very common behavior. He starts a discussion and then resorts to fallacies and various personal attacks when his argument is challenged. If you pay in kind, he plays the victim. He repeats this until someone finally moves on and stops responding to him in his thread only to move to the next thread you are in to try and continue his trolling. Notice he has walked into multiple threads where I was discussing with another and immediately continued his conflict from the previous thread.

I stopped responding to him, yet he kept butting in with "Oh, don't bother with him, it is typical Tanist" crap. He seeks this conflict, not I.

Yes, I respond to him in a rude manner. It should stop with him realizing that I won't respond to him in any other fashion. He knows that each time he responds to me, that I will provide that response....

Answer me this. If he knows that this is what I will say every time to him, that there will be no constructive discussion because I have explained to him that I will respond to him exactly as such every time he attempts, who is the troll? My responses stop the moment he stops trolling me. I mean, a troll seeks conflict. Isn't that what he is doing here? If a child sticks their hand in the fire over and over again, who is at fault for being burned? The child or the fire? Gyson need only keep his hand out of the fire, but... well... it is oh so much more fun for a troll to poke the cat.

By the way, he could have contacted me in PM's anytime if he was serious about resolving our issues. He hasn't. He wants to troll.

I will for the sake of people tiring of seeing those responses place him back on ignore. I took him off a while ago thinking that his behavior was just a particular bad argument we had. So, he is back on ignore, but that won't stop him from trolling me through others.

Yes, yes, you've made this abundantly clear now in the last umpteenth threads you've carried this petty post into. It was the one-armed man, not you, we got it.

To be perfectly honest, every time you make an argument like this about me I've been thinking "Wait, is Tanist describing me or himself?", because you seem to emulating all the behaviors you've been accusing me of.

Just because you don't respond to me doesn't mean I'm not going to respond a discussion you're participating in, or even respond to a comment you made directly. I think you may have some odd impression about how ignoring someone is supposed to work.


I guess expecting you not to respond in a rude manner in the first place is expecting too much?


Two things: 1) PMs work both ways. 2) I have suggested you take your issues with me to PMs before (rather than cluttering up the forum with them), and you did not. I personally don't have a huge interest in talking about your feelings, but if that's what you really wanted to do the option was always in your hands.


Yes, two months ago you made a big announcement (in an loot itemization discussion, similar to this one) that you were placing me on ignore. You then spent the next 4 days (in that same thread) criticizing me in responses to other posters. And then by the 5th day you were responding directly to my comments again. It was a stunning display of exactly how not to put someone on ignore. Well done, really.

And who exactly is trolling whom through others again? I respond directly to you. You're the one making comments about me in your responses to others.


Ok, you're acting like a nut now.

Deranged fanboys are still having dopamine high after the release.
Give them two weeks till their Vitamin G(iveafug) level drop off a bit.
Right now they're still foaming on the mouth and with all that Mt.Dew smearing all over the keyboard, you have no hope of having your valid feedbacks even considered.

All this Wall of Fan Communism demands you shut the hell up and play the game.
You already bought the game, like it or leave it. Because Larian is a poor, small-time developer so it's unfair to criticize, where will the future children of Larian developers study and what will they eat if you continue to force them to add new selfish features post-game release?

It's that sort of attitude that drove me to treat this forum with disdain and deliver every 'selfish' feedback with venom that is fully deserved of such diabetic community.

Everything's gotta be sweet, OR ELSE!

i agree with thread starter... Larian must divide the enemies drop / treasure chest that give us random trasure and give fixed treasure. Or maybe the bigger / rare chest give us better loot, and not the crap.

This game's enemies is not respawnable, so it's suck to feel underpower because you are not very lucky @obtain random item...

if this prob solved by just reload game until find some valuable.. WHAT is the point make us can't grind enemy?? truthfully, this game only give me a choice of being a thief for money.. that totally suck

I just registered to agree with the thread starter.

I've been thoroughly enjoying the game, the turn based combat, the detailed environment, the interesting story. It all takes me back to hundreds of hours playing Ultima VII and the BG games. DOS has been my favourite game from 2014 by a long margin.

However as someone who has practically worn out my F8 key playing the game so far, the one thing I've actively disliked is the random loot system. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread: random loot is fine in a game with respawning encounters, as you can keep refarming bosses until you get loot that you need. When encounters are fixed, it only makes sense to have fixed loot as well, at least for key items for characters.

Im at the point now with my lvl 10 party that I feel like I have seen most of the itemisation combos, so loot has become boring.

One of the things I really liked in the BG games were all the unique bits of gear, along with the little story description for them. I appreciate that Larian's time and resources are limited, but I found that unique gear really added to the depth of the gameworld.

I would also strongly agree with the guy who said that fixed loot improves replayability. When I know what loot drops where, then I often play through a game again intending to minmax another type of character build by collecting the best gear at the optimum time. As the game currently stands, I just get to look forward to mashing the F8 key until I get some non-junk item drops that fit my character build.

Anyway, I realise its probably too late to do anything about it now, but hopefully its something that can be incorporated into the next game!

You mean like in MMORPGs? Completely different systems, with different purposes and goals.




There is unique gear in the game world. You can even craft some interesting items.




Well, this one has arguments on both sides. At this point, this is a "taste" argument and considering this is Larians style... well /shrug





You never know, they may dabble in different things in the future, or... they may continue to use this system as they have through every other game of this nature. In the end, there are people who do like this type of system, so as I said, it is a matter of taste.

I sure hope they try for a different loot system next time. I frequently run across so many comments criticizing the randomness of the loot system while visiting different links turned up by google-search (while looking for some unrelated Divinity topics). Many claiming that it is D:OS's largest flaw. I've run into very few praising the random loot system outside of here.

Yes, random loot is fine for an rpg where you can repeatedly farm content. It makes no sense in a fixed, non respawning rpg.


Its not the same. BG had hundreds of unique magic items with background stories. The crafting is also not comparable at all. BG and Ultima VII allowed you to craft far more interesting equipment.


I havent heard a convincing argument for random loot yet. I'm not sure why any player would prefer it at this point.


It's cheaper and easier to use the random loot method they currently use, so I can understand why they continue to use it. Hopefully they will make enough money from this game to be able to consider slightly more time intensive, but superior loot distribution in future games.

I really praise them for completing such a fantastic game, but loot system seams like vanilla Diablo 3, just a avalanche of mostly useless items. It can surely be improved.
For me, ideal system was implemented in Divinity 2: Dragon Knight Saga. Drop of some items was fixed (items from Mindread or set items), otherwise it was pretty random. Most pleasant surprise in Divinity 2 was actually some kind of endgame content (Flying Fortresses), where you can get strong set gear with fixed stats. That planed but canceled "Lair beneath Phantom Forest" could fit this role of endgame nicely.
Maybe we can get some improvements with mods some day.

I don't think you will. I haven't heard any convincing arguments as to why carrot cake is better than chocolate and I don't think I ever will because I really don't like carrot cake.

I like the random loot. I like the mystery of what I might get on any given play through. I enjoy the fact that chance determines my rewards. It is also nice to know that on a given encounter I don't have to worry that the item is guaranteed to be useless for my party as the randomness means I can have the possibility of getting an item I desire. Now with a static placed loot, as you even pointed out, you know what to expect and so since you know what items you are going to get, well... why bother with that encounter?

Point is, this is a subjective issue, not an objective one. /shrug



That isn't an argument against randomness, that is an itemization quality issue and you can tweak the templates for random gear to give more variations and types, even more flashy names. As for crafting, again... just an issue of adding more of such. A random system can provide for this as well.






You know why they use it for a fact? Is it simply money or do they prefer it for other reasons? This system has its problems, but random systems in my opinion tend to fail because not enough attention gets put into the template algorithms. If you put a lot of attention into that, you can have all kinds of amazing and interesting gear in a random system.

So it appears that most of your objections to the system are things that really aren't specifically an issue with randomization, as much as it is the problem of the results of randomization being too generic, which as I said could be solved.

Sure.. because that process generally makes the system a lot less random than what we currently have.

I've got no problem with random loot to an extent. However, I do agree that there should be some semblance of progression. Optimised loot tables would go a long way to dealing with some of the issues random loot presents. For instance, I don't I found any better gear for my mage from the end of Cyseal til all the way through Heiberheim and halfway into Luculla. I still have a level 7 staff at level 15 simply for the stat boosts rather than equipping a basic staff that is closer to my level.

This is why Dragon Age uses fixed loot/drops. This way you don't miss a thing provided you have fully explored the map.

It is a huge work but I think Larian needs to make efforts to re-allocate loots.

Actually, that's the beauty with mages, you can get away with minimal loot. You can even challenge yourself and play them naked

The issue is that staves don't have many options going for them. Orange staves come with 15% chance to blind, etc. and casters usually aren't wanding things later into the game. A blue staff with +2 int is infinitely more useful than an orange wand with 20% chance to chill on hit.

Not everyone thinks Dragon Age was a good RPG. /shrug

Maybe it is just me, but I would like them first to spend a lot more time on making the game harder (more complex AI, etc...) as those are types of things that really need a more professional touch Loot design for now can easily be handled by the modding community.

These loot arguments are kind of pointless when you can destroy encounters without too much concern to character gearing. I think that once they are able to really ramp up the difficulty, then maybe more detailed min/max arguments on loot will be warranted.

I can agree that. With the way my team was slaughtering everything that had the misfortune of coming across our path, I felt loot was superfluous.

Even my friend who was more retentive about savescumming stopped caring past level 18

I'm not sure I agree with the OP - I think randomized loot can be a good way to go. The problem is that in D:OS it's completely broken:

- no cloth accessories (bracers, boots, helmets) appear past level 10 or so. And yes, I have savescummed and reloaded countless times to test this.
- "but your mages can wear leather". But the problem is that the randomised stats somehow fall down at this point, and you rarely (never?) find leather with +INT. And why does leather armor not have a stat requirement like metal anyway?
- Following on from the above, why do Sarongs have an INT requirement? Past level 5 or so a specialist Warrior or Rogue can't wear them.
- the random stats are far too random. I understand the game encourages unique builds, but metal armor with +Sneaking and cloth with +STR is catering far too much to these fringe builds and leaves specialists out in the cold. Some balancing of stats between specialist and fringe builds would be ideal.
- in contrast to the random stats, the weighting of item types is completely screwed up. In my testing the percentage of chest pieces was far too high; something like 70% of the items in chests were chest armor (no pun intended), and sometimes 3 of 4 items were chest armor.
- some areas have loot levels far below their mob level (e.g. Hiberheim) EDIT: just found a chest past a puzzle in Phantom Forest with lvl5 gear :s
- the temptation to savescum (saving before opening chests or talking to new vendors and then reloading to refresh stock) should not be there. As someone suggested before, loading the items for an area as you enter would be ideal.
- the crafting system doesn't make up for any of the above. Some crafted items can be OK armor-wise but they won't have the stats of a similar level green or above. The jewelry is a joke, even with the best ingredients (which you don't get until halfway through the game) you can't make items that are comparable to early-game drops. Also there are massive holes in the system - you can make chests and boots but not bracers or helms? Why?

Yeah, I a developer has created a situation where players are encouraged to reload a saved game over and over again after checking a container or vendor, at that point they've pretty much failed the player on some level.

I am not really a big fan of the randomized system either. I am now level 19 and have yet to find any Bracers for my mages. There was literally nothing stat wise that benefited my mages this entire time. In addition I have yet to find any Bracers that have +Strength on them (where I desperately need 1 more strength) But I have countless with + Dexterity.


Does anyone know any way or any bracer/boot/helm item that can give +1 strengh somehow. Or if there are any rings that give +strength. All I ever get is +loremaster rings

I really need just 1+ strength for my Mage (its a battle mage, I want to wear a new plate armor that is Ludicrously good +2int +2speed +40ish in all res and 68 armor.) But I just need 14 strength for it and I have just 13 with all my gear (already have girdle, weapon amulet with strength)

But so far I have not found anything else that would give me +strength

Larian chose the lazy route with this. Random loot with finite mobs... who was the fucking brilliant genius who decided this was OK?

I'm gonna go with the same one that decided NOT to make Diablo IV but instead something reminiscent of proper RPG's like the IE games (Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment) and of course Ultima.

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

Got any other Brain Busters for us?

Glad to be of assistance!
*Flies off to save another day*

I fail to see how using random loot is STICKING IT TO DIABLO. You know, since all Diablo games use random loot.

I hated opening the runed chest in Boreals Vault... ONLY TO FIND SOME CRAPPY BLUES.


That thing should have had a unique weapon or something inside... Considering I had just sacrificed a freaking (EPIC WEAPON) that had epic stats to save (ARGHBLARG)

There should be some risk/reward placed in the game.

When I beat a difficult boss, I want to be rewarded with good loot and not a plethora of trash drops.
I understand why Larian went with randomized loot though:
It's much less work.

Balancing a game is a horribly difficult task and eats a lot of resources you could've put into more interesting parts of the game.

The rest of the game is great though, I doubt that Larian is good at balancing though, which is already shown by some of those "panic changes" like what they did to weather the storm, crowd control and rage.

In my opinion they should first and foremost take care of "useless" skills and talents and make them useful and fun, then worry about nerfing/buffing stuff that makes the game less challenging.
The whole resistance-to-cc-buffing will just lead to more skills being "useless".

Having 200 spells in the game is pointless when only 20 of them are actually useful.

I feel like the underlying problem with rage is the insane damage 2 handed fighters deal in conjunction with life leech and the easily reached resistance cap, making you invulnerable to damage while dealing tons of damage.

If anything life leech needs to be nerfed hard into what it should be, which is a small supportive heal that's not anywhere close to a "magical" heal, that also requires you to attack the enemy instead of getting attacked.

Call it blood lust of bloodbath and let it only be triggered by enemy blood, please.

Also put a cap to resistances that isn't 100 percent.
75 percent should be plenty and ensures that elemental attacks don't get useless.
Then again you run into the problem of some skills actually hurting your character and becoming useless.

I think 100 percent elemental resistance hurts the game a lot though.

Also 2 handed damage is batshit insane at the moment. Can't compare to rogue and archer damage output though since I haven't played them yet.
1 handed damage is a joke though. Barely tickles and with the cc nerf my sword and board fighter becomes a totally superfluous wuss.

Agreed. However the problem isn't necessarily randomized loot: personally, I think a random loot system can work as long as the weightings are done correctly, so that equal numbers of each type of item drop (and not 90% jewellery and chest pieces). The random stats should be more geared towards specialised builds (metal armor with +STR, cloth with +INT, leather with +DEX) rather than the completely random current system - players can always use jewellery to add the stats their armor lacks. Also, some combinations just shouldn't be in the game (metal boots with +Sneaking? GTFO).



Not sure I agree with you here. I'm playing with both a Geo/Pyro and an Aero/Hydro combination and even though both of them have 3 full skill bars I wish I had more space. If anything, there's too much choice; I can win fights using any number of combinations of spells, and I'm always finding situations in which I need a spell I wouldn't normally use in a fight. Sure, there are some that are very niche - e.g. I never use Farsight, as it seems too much work to be constantly casting it and I'd rather rely on my main character having high PER in the first place.



100% agreed. My main can now get healed by walking in lava with 125% fire res, that's just stupid.



My Rogue main does pretty well with backstab, and Dagger's Drawn is as OP as Flurry. A sword and board fighter isn't there to do damage though, he's there to soak it up. With resistances as they are however I don't see the need for a tank, I've been using Madora as my front-line and she's been fine. I never use Rage though so she's a good balance of tank and spank.

On my side i think the loot system is fine, but i would like to see more different suffixes to items.

You didn't really use your free credit hour. To have available such a detailed, exhaustive breakdown of your writing and completely ignore every point suggests an underlying pathology. I'm sorry for your cognitive state at this juncture. Enjoy your life of rigid linear thinking and self-assured cognitive dissonance. It makes me very sad knowing you have no way to help yourself right now. Good luck.

Flurry is not even remotely the reason twohanders are better than daggers, and daggers drawn isn't as good as Flurry.

Flurry is super situational and is there basically just for bosses who have absurd health and don't die to the absurd Man-at-Arms AoE (Because being able to crit basically everything on the screen for 2k isn't overpowered amirite). Those bosses also tend to only lose 20~30% of their health to a rage Flurry.

Now that's where daggers shine. Dagger backstabs have the highest damage per AP of all the normal attacks. Daggers Drawn would be good if it could backstab, but it can't so it's ultimately weaker than 4 backstabs. The problem is that rogues don't have access to ridiculous AoE attacks so they're really only good at taking out single targets.

My point is that this game has limited enemies/loot sources while applying a random loot system. So it is very possible after you have looted every single item there is still something offered by the game that you dearly want but you simply aren't lucky enough to have it.

You may not go for another playthrough just to get certain items and there is no guarantee that you will get them.

That's the beauty of the random system though. On one playthrough, I got tons of loremaster stuff, so I never had to sink more than 1 point into loremaster.

On the next playthrough, I didn't see a loremaster item until lvl 12. I had to sink points into loremaster and had to adapt my ability setup with the change.

You don't need a set of legendary items to beat game.

I don't want loot to become an itinerary list of "OK, i'm level 6 now, time to go to [location x] now to get my [level 6 sword of awesomeness]."

The game is incredible as i been playing it nonstop, the loot however...is just beyond bad. I absolutely hate the loot in this game, like i said they did so good with so much of this game but the loot system needed more TLC.

I really hope Pillars of Eternity nailed a better loot system than this.

I freaking hate random loot in chests, i can not help myself to keep trying for new loot. I just want the chest to pre determined from the very start of the game, and ill accept whatever is in there. I cant stand when games give me that door to save before the final blow of a boss and try for loot or save in front of chests. I just dont like that mechanic as im to weak to not abuse it.

Like Songbird, that's a major pro instead of con to me...

Although it might be very data intensive, if they could have all the treasure for each "act" generated as soon as you enter it then you'd be able to prevent save-loot-reload. To compensate for the locked in nature, they could make various types of chest have varying loot. Ornate chests always having at least a green item, for instance. Sure, some people could go in and read the file where chest contents are stored and know where to get the best items or change the information in it to get better loot, but at that point they're messing with their own playthrough and not hurting anyone else. It's possible a text doc with a name for chest locations and abbreviated text for contents like "OrnateChest_UpperChurch: Ring_green, Sarong_blue;". I dunno, just throwing it out there.

I love the game, but I strongly dislike the level scaled and randomized loot system.

I wish it had a loot system like in Baldur's Gate or Fallout and had a lot more hand placed loot. This Diablo style loot system is really starting to get annoying, 95% of everything you find is just randomized and useless vendor trash.

Also, the legendary items at the beginning of the game are much less powerful than rare/magical items late game. That is a great immersion breaker and doesn't make any darn sense.

Hey mate, I could be wrong but I don't think +1 STR bracers are possible. I've noticed certain stats only spawn on certain slots - like Bartering only appears on amulets and boots, Blacksmithing and Crafting only appear on belt and bracers etc. I believe you can only get +1 STR on chest, amulet or belt. Have you already used the +1 stat point book from the vendor in your homestead? Maybe thats the answer for you, or just use your next stat point level up?

Haha, I know how you feel man - at least you admit it.. Guys like us would prefer the temptation to just not be there, we would be fine without it - but if its there we are too weak not to reload.. The problem is its unfair of us to request a change in the system because of this - requesting fixed loot on playthrough / area load will impact people who don't want it of course.. Difficult to find the proper balance in all this I believe.. Perhaps a mixture of random and fixed loot as was suggested earlier in this thread.. like certain bosses eg Loic will maybe always drop a caster item - but not a fixed item, it could be a random legendary robe or staff - etc.

As for me I reloaded loot throughout my first playthrough but at around lvl 15 with cherry picked loot on all my chars I thought.. why am I doing this to myself again and ruining such an amazing game.. So I have started over with two lone wolves - no reloading loot..

I thought about a compromise where only on big named bosses if I don't get a yellow / legendary, I reload until at least one yellow drops but then stop - even if its a bow or something totally useless for either of my chars. That way its like the boss dropped a guaranteed quality loot for the effort, but still randomized - ie. I didn't totally savescum until it was the exact item -> slot -> stats I needed.

But then I thought who am I kidding, half cheating is still cheating haha.. So hopefully my willpower holds out until them balanced loot mods start coming out Gotta admit its highs and lows.. lows when you get whites and blues from that big named boss... highs when that damn vendor finally sells Strong Regenerate

At first I hadn't understood the random mechanism for shops, I quoted it for chests through some reload, but from shops it wasn't clear until I made a wrong click stealing something instead of just moving the party. Loaded back and realized all the nice items I just bought in shop had disappeared.

It felt frustrating and then I started some tedious save scumming from shops. Later I gave up but for skills books. It's just wrong that they are so random when they are closely linked to characters building. That game just doesn't have the random diversity to justify it.

I don't like the Diablo like loot system (and share preferences of OP) but I feel that players like me and OP are in a small minority nowadays. I don't like the save scumming but I bet some players appreciate have a tool to cancel a bad random. But the random for skills books is purely wrong.

Hi all!

Being a fan of the old rpg's like BG2, Torment or IWD i have always appreciated the fixed loot system and disliked most random loot systems.

With this game however, i have actually started to appreciate aspects of a random loot system. It opens up gameplay quite a bit, since you don't build your chars based on particular items you know you'll find.

HOWEVER i still do feel that certain fixed items do add a lot of value and character to looting. Now i know that the game uses unique items (which is nice, though there could be more of them and placed differently) but it's a whole different level of feeling rewarded when, after beating a difficult opponent, you find an item that is actually related to the opponent you just beat. maybe even with a backstory...

so my opinion is that the random loot system is in principal ok for this game, but it should be spiced up by having fixed items with a meaning placed in certain places, where really tough opponents are encountered.

thanks for reading,

chwat

Random loot is fine (imho) but in this particular game I find it poorly implemented (esp when compared to Larian earlier works). As i commented in other threads; your better off shopping in the stores and crafting items than searching the world for secrets and surviving in the wilds (with regards to loot; this comment only pertains to loot). Most of the time when I finish a hard fight; and examine the drop loot or open the majestic chest (some hidden); there is utter feeling of why did i bother with the loot it is worthles.

I'm somewhat of a similar opion... for EACH battle I get now, there's a lootbox next to it.
Seriously?

I understand you want to reward players, but it's a bit overkill to place a rewardbox near each opponent group, like random wolves...

I suspect the chests are supposed to be a failsafe in case the act of beating the encounter yields nothing (or next to nothing).

Unfortunately the chests can often yield next to nothing as well.

The random loot system IMHO is probably the biggest and maybe the only failure of this game.

Most of the time the loot is so bad, you couldn't help it but go WTF? The range is way too wide, and enchancement is completely random. A chest that can either spawn multiple legendary items, or can also spawn a few worthless blue items instead. You could end up with 2 hand weapons that give +1 to 1H weapon and vice versa. When this happens, you couldn't help it but feel cheated, and want to reload.

IMHO this is laziness on developer's behalf, not to have an optimized / smart loot system. Instead, oh let's just randomize everything.

I also agree there are way too many chests in the game. More random loot, more save-and-load. Of course you don't have to play the load/save game and enjoy your +1hand staff with + dex.

Diablo uses a smart loot system; not this total random stuff.

Sadly the badly implemented loot system brings back memories of Divine Divinity where I got used to savescumming because there were only two rings and one pair of leggings with slots in the whole story... Fortunately merchants tended to refresh their items at every visit in that game, which helped with the rest...

It's a real shame as D:OS is otherwise a fantastic game. Beautiful graphics, terrific soundtrack, immersive and entertaining storyline, versatile and creative character concepts. (Which imho are the main reasons why one would decide to replay the game. Not the random loot.) I guess while other games have evolved since -- and we got used to some form of a smart loot system as Drachen mentioned previously -- the Divinity series is still stuck with completely randomly created and totally randomly placed junk you would sell immediately. I wholeheartedly agree with some points of criticism mentioned beforehand:

You'll simply feel cheated if you end up with a blue item worth 80 gold from a boss chest which you got some nice orange loot from last time, and of course this will encourage you start savescumming. I don't even think this loot needs to be completely fixed and manually placed. It might be enough to make smarter random loot tables with guaranteed quality loot for the more important fights.

The number of completely empty barrels and crates is outrageous. Instead of placing them there why not make sure that generally useless items like a rogue armor with +1 STR (but not DEX) don't get created at all? There's so much real trash in the game no character could ever profit from.

The crafting system is currently fun and interesting, yet there should be far more variety in it. Why can't crafters create bracers or helmets? Why can't they enhance necklaces and rings? Making characters with higher crafting skills be capable of adding more attributes to an item might be the answer. (In which case items should stop granting crafting bonuses. It's currently too easy to get to crafting 5 without too much investment.)

The reason why the current random loot system is dreadfully boring is the very low probability of getting an item that is actually useful to someone in your party. Sooner or later all you'd be interested in will be the value of the loot. (To savescum at merchants, obviously. -- Oh, no, never! -- Yep, merchants are a problem as well. At least they should sell all skillbooks. And more ingredients. And...)

I realize that some of these topics can be -- or were already -- addressed by modding and that some others might be impossible to change in this game. Yet I think this is a topic that should be considered by Larian at least for future games. Please change something that has never worked. There doesn't seem to be any shortage on creative ideas in your ranks otherwise.

And who told you players cannot craft helmets? Probably bracers too although i havent dabbled with crafting too much.

You sure can create and improve rings, and probably necklaces too.



There is nothing actually bad about the current system, it doenst need to be removed but tweaked. Adjusted. Thats all.


A very simple (relatively speaking ofc) solution is to create a few categories of items, then assign those categories to loot containers as the devs see fit. With addition of unique hand placed items where it would be expected. Or by just assigning "super awesome loot" category to those special creatures or containers.


Of course there should be empty barrels and crates. Of course you should not get items specifically suited for your party all the time.
What a nonsense to think otherwise.

The setting internal coherence and plausibility override simplistic casual player need to have every crate in the game filled with loot to satisfy his greed - while those same players complain how there is too much loot around.
Having every crate and barrel filled with stuff is a completely ludicrous idea that would ruin several other features of the game.


The Merchants should NOT sell everything possible.
That makes no sense at all.
If that was true then no one would need any item from the rest of the game.
They need some smaller tweaks but thats it.

If rarity of skills books are the problem then there should be more of those found through exploration and combat with more important enemies, as part of the loot.



There are simpler and much more effective solutions possible then just overblowing one feature without care how that affects the rest of the game.





- Higher crafting skill enabling players to add more attributes is a reasonable idea, i think something similar to that is already in the game, but not sure.

- Removing or seriously minimizing amounts of loot that give crafting bonuses. Having those appear only on bracers and helmets (if that is not already the case) would be a good thing too.

And how -- pray tell -- can a simple leather helmet or bracelet be crafted? How can you add attribute boni to rings?

Maintaining complex item categories and selecting random loot based on them is what smart loot tables do in a nutshell.

On the empty crates issue:
Apart from the fact that your comment on my thinking processes is uncalled for, I'd still say it's perfectly OK to have some empty crates and to have the odd sometimes empty crate. But not thousands of them in the game. This uses up valuable gaming time and provides no fun in return at all. This is why I call it a bad feature for my money.

I didn't say merchants should sell everything, either. But skillbooks belong to character creation, not equipment. At least they should provide an exception.

Any non-unique item with a crafting bonus would already be too much IF crafting was able to further improve on items. But at the moment it is not, so no real issue there.

Anyway, thanks for the warm welcome.

Oh...pray tell, aww, excuse me..

http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=526585&nt=6&page=1

Separate categories for rings and amulets.

You can craft NINE different helmets.

Download the pdf and study it well. In detail. All combinations probably havent been discovered yet.




I never said anything about any complex item categories, or "maintenance". Try to read what you are replying to.



No they should not. There is plenty of ingredients sold already. Any more would devalue exploration and looting.


If you havent figured it out, your "fun" is not an overriding design parameter. Especially when it comes to such ideas that would negatively affect the whole game for everyone else.




A... what?


If you want warmer welcomes try not posting suggestions that are by large detrimental to the game main features because of your own subjective notions of "fun" self entitlement and consequences of your lack of knowledge about the game.


I am not the welcoming team and you will get the same reception as anyone else around here, including myself.

If you didn't receive a warm welcome for suggesting other people talk nonsensical crap instead of being open to different ideas, I feel sorry for you, Hiver. Besides, your link to Ivra's crafting guide only tells me that you actually haven't read it. Open it, and do so now, if you feel inclined to learn more about crafting. No, you cannot craft helmets. You do need helmets to create those nine different helmets. Period.

The rest of your post is really just firmly denying my arguments without presenting any counter arguments yourself. I suggest you go back to the uni and learn the basics of debating.

I dont demand any kind of "warm welcome" or go around accusing people of not giving it to me if and when i make suggestions that are silly or not applicable.

I dont feel the need to create such false cheap emotional blackmail to discuss anything.


You dont need a helmet to create a pumpkin helmet and a bucket helmet, if you really want to split hairs. But im really surprised you would even dare to keep talking about it while so blatantly just skipping over the rest of your demands.

Guess thats what they teach you at uni about debating.


- also, the game loot system provides more then enough of ordinary helmets and bracers to tinker with so there is practically no need to be able to craft them, and if there is - easy to add a few.



Of you go. Dont forget the pdf about crafting on your way out.
Next time if you have a problem, first check the Help/Tips and Tricks part of the forum where good people invested a lot of time and effort to create such lists and helping advices for you.

I certainly do think there are plenty of fantastic and creative brains at work here among the forumers. This is the reason why I registered in the fist place. You, Mr. Winter, sadly don't seem to be one of them.

Of course, sinking yourself to personal insults.
Uni debating techniques. Your teachers would be so proud of you now.

Not to mention its really visible whose brain is of higher class around here.



The nickname is from A Hat full of Sky. Not French language.
off you go...

This is getting off topic, and pointless to continue.

Damn, is this topic still going?

Anyway, the answer I gave half-a-year ago (it's been that long since I was here?) still stands, removing specific bonusses will harm the "you can build your char anyway you want"... you might hate INT on your weapon, for someone else that's beneficial to their warrior mage and removing it only harms the game as result.

The only thing I would agree with is no 2-hand on single weapons or 1-hand on 2-hand weapons, since it's impossible to utilize these bonusses. For the rest, nothing is 'useless'...

I think, random loot is fine. If you know what to find at a particular location, it hurts replayability. But one thing comes to my mind. If loot is in hard to reach locations, it should be worth the effort and not another piece of leather armor for the uptenth time.

I was wondering if I should start a thread, but appart from some derailing, i think this is the same topic.

I don't know if there are some limitations to this, but I'm level 10 now, and i must say, with all the objects i found, i'm pretty depressed by the lack of diversity of the objects.

I know talents are not supposed to be "found" on an item, i get that, but there is as of today in the game 8 skills group, 6 attributes and 20 abilities. In all the items i found, i rarely found items that actually give attributes point (or if so, always the same points on the same piece of equipement), and found items only giving points in about 1/3 of the total abilities (and again, a lot of times, i would get the same rings that pumps up the same ability, i didn't found anything for crafting for example (i'm guessing it does not exist), and like 2 or 3 items for weapons abilities on the hundreds and hundreds of items i found, never to be found on a weapon for example or on headgear, never found a piece of equipement with SPD and INT for example, except maybe legendary and even so...

Why is that so?
Am i the only one founding that the items are way too similar and not fun?

While it is not terrible it is exactly what it says, random and somewhat or mostly frustrating, it can be good sometimes.

Yes there should be empty crates and barrels.

Bosses should always have at least 1 random (and or placed non random) legendary item.

Being able to pay to combine items would be useful and pleasant.

Finding stuff on the ground can be a pain....why doesnt my ALT key highlight items on the ground?
is there a fix? Hasnt seemed to work since the latest patch.

Items that have bonuses which offer no valid benefit ( the infamous +1 to 2handed on a dagger or +1 to 1 handed on a 2 handed sword is absolutely a hideous preventable blunder) must go.

Crossbows should have lower Dex requirement and a higher action point cost to use, crossbows firing as fast as a bow is laughable. Yes thats a comment on items/gear, but crossbows are just immediately sold as useless loot anyway.

I also intensely dislike finding lots of weapons at the merchants I dont use, have any skill points in or even like my characters to use. 4 axes but no swords? 2 crossbows but no bows.

I have fewer complaints about skillbooks except the unique ones should not be unique, maybe rare and expensive but not unique.

My point being that it's not THAT random. I think some attributes / abilities are not in the "roll" on the RNG, at least not for all piece of equipment, this gives a impression of seeing again and again the exact same piece of equipment, which, for a game this good is quite a pity.

If you look at other CRPGs it becomes quite apparent how disappointing the loot system really is. Even more so because DOS is fantastic in other departments. Some games do not allow you to craft, but they tend to have lots of placed items. And I'm talking about useful and powerful placed items (e.g. Baldur's Gate or IWD series). In other games crafting itself is strong enough so that you don't need to worry about random loot (e.g. Elder Scroll series).

I'm not talking about not having random loot at all or not making it difficult to craft great items. But finding loot should fill you with excitement and not lethargy (hey, another shield with +2 Intelligence and +1 Two-handed, awesome).

As I said, randon loot is fine by me with some caveats.

The lucky finds should be more rewarding than just some leather cap or something along these lines.

Last 10 rings, no lie :

2 with telekinesis, 8 with magic resistances...

Yes, it can be frustrating and unfulfilling especially since the rest of the gamne is so excellant, my latest party is 10th level, getting ready to meet Braccus and no one has any really good items.

At the very least every boss should drop a legendary item, and the merchants should all at least stock some legendaries.

I know combining items sounds kind of monty-haul but really hacks me off when you have 2 mediocre items and need just one good one.

Linio, I feel the pain, I also am really sick of telekinesis and +10% resist earth rings, ( as Stabbey said ( very corrrectly) nothing uses Earth based damage, or very little does and generally elemental resistances are the least useful of item abilities).

Not sure if we are beating a dead horse or even if they would want ot improve it, maybe this si the games biggest non-technical weak point, hey even Baldurs Gate(s) had some things in it I didnt like
and I think most of the items in IWD were very generic and ho-hum. No vorpal swords? oh wait there is a vorpal sword its the Githyanki silversword which is sucktacular for its attack speed if I remember right....why penalize the player, the company got my money, gaming should be rewarding and fun. I think Larian could fix it and didnt break it intentionally, its just meh and really unrewarding in final execution/operation.

Now on my last playthrough I did find the best item I have ever found, so far.

Legendary Claymore 2handed sword.
+13 crit chance
+1 to STR, CON, SPD, Dex, ( and I threw a Tormented soul on it immediately)
probably had some other ability or 2 I forgot, but since I found it at 12th level I gave it up around level 15 because it no longer could do competitive damage and couldnt be upgraded! that really hurt if I could have upgraded the damaqe more, I would have used that until the end of the game!

It's not that i'm against Random Items.

It's actually the fact that those are not so random.
I don't know if speaking of this subject here is actually getting attention from the dev, if not, where this should be talked about.

Legendary is not specially a solution in my opinion, more unique would be nice, i mean i encounter very little of those, and some of them were just plain stupid (either just weak, or painfully not funny, like the Stone Sword). A whole lot of legendary were just +1 in each attribute which, let's face it, is not actually that strong. I'm yet to encounter items that put +2 in something, but i'm guessing, it does not exist either.

So yeah, more variety, and a range in power, i'm level 10 and still founding items (not weapon thankfully but rings and amulets) the same power of level 1 items...

No Linio I have had items that give +2 stat bonuses, they are not terribly common, they definately should be more common. Legendary ( Legendary and Unique- orange and gold tier items are the items that are desireable usually and should kind of level up and stay competitive til endgame), blue items are only exciting when you have nothing worth having and dont cause that much aexcitement to begin with, green items are replacements for blue, but not a whole lot better.

I am not against random either, just not weak useless items that do not reward, excite or improve the character. Random is good in lots of ways. I am not offering a lot of helpful advice here, just an expressed desire for items to be better, not lose their useful competitive edge throughout the game and agree with most of the others that are unhappy with loot for their often similar reasons.

Yeah what is up with the Stone Sword what use is that? I thought it might cause petrification or something for a one time use...nada. Yeah there are not that many unique items, Sword of the Planets is good, I wish it came in a 2handed version!

I do know from my previous playthroughs that items get better above level 10 ( so dont despair too much) but that as I said they become obsolete especially weapons, which sucks and since they cant remain competitive for damage versus a lower tier item thats higher level you have to abandon it for a higher damage weapon that has few if any enhancements...a lot. Hence my wish for combining items.

Items around level 1-13 give +1 ability bonus. Above level 14 they grant +2 bonus and +3 at level 20+. This is not the problem. The problem is there's no control over what boni an item actually gives (except the limitations e.g. Blacksmithing only appears on bracers and belts). And very often the random loot generator would actually create fairly nonsensical items. A level 10 legendary two-handed sword could have +1 one-handed, +1 shield specialist, +1 dexterity, +1 perception. An example of an expensive legendary item. However, you'd be much happier about a GREEN one granting +1 strength and +1 two-handed.

95% of the time all you get from the game are stupid items you'd sell immediately. Which puts an extra strain on you who bought the game for fun. You keep wasting time on checking out the item, determining it's of no use to you, and taking it to a merchant. In my first playthrough I did not invest in bartering at all and still ended up with over a million gold at the end, not having anything to spend it on.

In my current playthrough I found legendary items by the numbers before I even reached level four. Never happened to me before. On the other hand the second random feature, which would be scroll production, seems to be stuck at two or three spells. I've got a stack of bloodletting, blindness and curses by now, but not one of the more valuable spells at the level my party's at now.

How very odd, the scroll thing I mean. I find a lot of scrolls and sell almost all of them except the offensive damage dealer type spells for my fighter, since debuffs and defensive scrolls really are so situationally specific I find that being offensive is more effective, that would suck. I have lotsa shield this and that scrolls but no Fireballs, Blitbolts, Boulder bashes or summoning scrolls, WTF? I mean you can make your own but I havent yet no real need.

I dont think I have ever found a legendary item before level 6 or maybe 7.

SleepyBadger is correct and gives an excellant example with his 2Handed sword that really is a penalty item not a reward, good only for the money it sells for. Yes the green tier 2Handed Sword with +1 STR and +1 2handed skill would be a nice item and upgradeable so would stay efficacious for a few levels hopefully. I hate having a great level 12 weapon that becomes obsolete 2 levels later. Really frosts my nethers.

And I agree with him furthermore that I do sell 95% of the items I find, in fact I would go farther and say I sell 99% of all items because they are useless to my whole party, I also get a little irked that I can craft a sword that does more damage than one I find or buy at a given level but I cant give it any other abilities, another reason I would like to combine items...I like the damage from the Claymore I just made but want the peripheral buffs from the Claymore I found last level on my new sword.

Okay so I have gone into straight complaining-whining-bitching mode...sorry. It isnt helping, I know. I have not downloaded the editor yet, but may, if I cant get better items maybe I should just make uber characters. I hate doing it there is always some bloody issue.

Hence my question : what is?
Are those topics actually read by the team?
If so, would there be a point of trying to voice a solution?
Maybe this topic would not be the ideal place (specially on page 7). Should we create a new topic to try and list solutions we would propose for the loot system?

I don't want to resort to using cheats or such, it's a great game, it would be a shame.

There are a few interesting discussions going on concerning this topic, like Endarire suggesting pre-ordering merchandise.

I certainly do hope some ideas will be picked up for the team for the next title. In fact, even if they fancy random loot for it, writing some minimal logic behind random item creation would already solve some issues (e.g. any item having a STR prereq should grant +STR but not INT or DEX, two-handed swords should not grant one-handed or bow bonus etc.)

I also hope they change some of the loot placing logic too. I think I'd be OK with the random loot system if I could be sure I'd find some great items in the important chests (like boss chests etc). But at the moment the variation is just too huge. Sometimes you find two legendaries in a locatiion, sometimes it's a single blue item plus a low level skill book. That's what causes many people to savescum.

The problem of the pre ordering system is that it's actually quite complicated to put in place whereas simply diversify items and actually put all attributes and skills and why not talents would be a great first step.

Honestly it wouldn't matter much that you would find stupid loot like strength base weapon that gives DEX if this was as rare as finding any other items!

Yeah that was my fear, that it would be hard to implement.

But I am seeing how random it is this playthrough and also how lousy and frustrating it can be, I have found at level 12 and I am in Hiberheim, not one weapon or set of armor that is really worth having I do have a few rings and amulets that do not completely blow/suck but it hardly makes up for it. Even the merchants are selling crap items. Again I think Merchants should all generate some legendary and unique items every level up, it doesnt have to be a ton of em just 1 ring, 1 robe/armor, 1 amulet, 1 belt, 1 boots, 1 helm/hat, 1 2h weapon, 1 1h weapon 1 missile weapon....etc.
Make it worth it to go and look and try to get something better.

Linio your right some of the loot is just stupid, amulets with 1 elemental resistance, weapons that give a boost to something else thats contradictory +1 2handed on a dagger or +1 shield on a 2 handed weapon for instance. The Stone Sword....

Putting talents on items would be a cool thing if the talent doesnt suck! Especially some ofthe hi-tier talents which are really hard to qualify for.

I'm just at the final stages of a playthrough with home made stuff. It's usually much better than what you find if your crafter is up to his game. The problem lies in finding the much needed tormented soul. The only problem I have is with boots, belts and rings. There doesn't seem to be a way to enchanct them properly. Just add a claw or some other gadget which really doesn't do much in later stages of the game.

Have never tried to enchant aaulets, boots, belts, or rings. And what you can do to armor seems to be very little, remove the move penalty via anvil and improve the armor value with scale scraps oh and add steakth with void essence, so far thats all I have found but there may be thingsI dont know about.

Yeah tormented soul is weird, in one playthrough I had about 5 of em at one point and one on the weapon, this playthrough I have seen one in 12 levels? WTF?

I feel your pain man!

It's a good option for low level characters, when you haven't yet found better belts or boots for everybody in the party. Sure, that simple +1/+2/+3 modifier becomes meaningless later on. There should really be a way to stack them.

I tend to visit all ingredient merchants after gaining a level. I would buy up all void essences, all tormented souls, sextants, sinews etc. Even if I don't intend to create new weapons on that level. Having spares never hurts.

Yeah, that's what I did after running on empty for some time. Travelling through all the hubs and buying what they had.

Yes, me as well, I always buy the tormented souls, sextants, sinews, essences, joshua's spice...which must be the rarest item and its rarity is very inconsistent. Better to have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.

My level up routine has become pretty well standardised, if you guys dont have one by the 2nd playthrough I would be very surprised,

I wish Tormented Souls affected STR and SPD instead of STR and DEX. Actually what would be even better is more enhancer bits like the Tormented soul that affect other stats like one that boosts SPD and CON and another that buffs INT and PER. and for an item to able to accept multiple ehancers.

I won't lie: this sounds like a very complex solution for a very simple problem.
Designing and hand-placing specific items or merchant inventories would probably work far better requiring a lot less effort from developers.





Yeah, even if Larian wants to stick absolutely to random itemization, these would be significant improvements.

My take on loot is that no game has ever got it quite right but some have got a a lot closer than others. I think there are three laws about loot and the related subject of crafting (since crafting directly affects loot in a game):

1. Crafting is a zero sum game. Either you can craft better equipment than you can loot or buy or you can't. If you can, crafting is the only game in town and loot is all but irrelevant except for money to buy consumables, if you can't crafting is a waste of time and looting and shopping, especially specific items, is all that matters. Balance is impossible because if crafted vs. looting were equal you would always choose crafting since that way you can make exactly the items you want but you may not be able to buy/find them.

2. It is impossible in this day and age for many people to resist Googling "[MyGame] best weapon" etc. It is almost impossible for the remainder to avoid coming across spoilers for these as people inevitably discuss them interminably round the boards.

3. In every game either you can buy anything you want but have a restricted supply of money or you can make effectively unlimited amounts of money but there is a restricted supply of quality items.

No game I've played has IMO ever managed to navigate this minefield and many have made howling errors in addressing it. Some of my favorite examples:

Skyrim: crafting is everything. Loot, even the supposedly legendary deidric artifacts and weapons, are pathetic by comparison to what you can craft for yourself, utterly useless. Quest rewards, whether gold or items, are therefore irrelevant or more accurately non-existent.

Wasteland 2: If you choose to use energy weapons there is only one in the game worth anything, the Gamma Ray Blaster. If you do not locate this weapon (and it is pretty hardy to find and secure blind) your energy weapon character is massively gimped and there is nothing you can do about it. Epic fail.

NWN2: Theoretically you can craft all the best gear, and the game goes to much trouble to encourage you to do so. But in practice the crafting system was nerfed to stop you doing it by making key ingredients extremely rare and the skill/feat/level combination requirements Byzantine complicated and difficult to achieve. Ragequit inducing misdirection.

Other games have got it nearly right IMO:

DAO: Everything you might want is available at selected merchants, but the quality items are so expensive and gold so hard to accumulate that you cannot afford to equip your party with everything you would like to - you have to make hard choices. Except you don't because they also put in the Lyrium Potion scam enabling you to mint unlimited gold and buy everything at the cost of a little traveling and mouse-clicking. Why did they ruin it with that?

BG/IWD/PST (the IE games): Essentially like DAO except no "Lyrium Potion Scam" exploit and much better genuinely unique found items and quest rewards. IMO the best looting/shopping system except for one flaw. If you don't know what you're going to find you can waste too much gold on unnecessary items and you can skill up in the wrong weapons type irreversibly. It also suffers from the "[MyGame] best weapon" thread problem of course.

My view is that nobody has ever got this completely right and in the grand scheme of things DOS doesn't do that bad a job of things, subject to some irritations. But then every RPG has irritations of one sort or another. Most people get pretty irritated looking at their monthly payslips too.

I've always wondered why a gamer want to know/find "[MyGame] best weapon" ...

Maybe I'm one of the exceptions who don't care for having the best weapon ... ???

Gregorovich: yes, earlier in this thread I brought up the same topic. In fact, with some of the examples you had there.

And I repeat: D:OS had by far the best combat system and elemental magic system I've ever seen in a game. However, in terms of generating loot it's seriously lacking usefulness and creativity. Which is why I think the idea of pre-ordering is exciting, even if (yes, Tuco) it would be a complete overhaul of the previous system.

As far as NWN2 is concerned, I disagree with you Gregorovich full-heartedly. That game had a loot system I could live with any time. It had truckload of hand-placed, quality loot you could count on. Yes, crafting great items was difficult. In fact, you could only create one set of "gear for life" for each of your characters. But that was more than enough for the end game. And it brought its own challenges...you had to calculate what you could possibly create with the given essences and gemstones and then decide which items were the most important to you. And the rest of your gear was still useful and good but not the very best, which is OK in my book. I enjoyed that system very much. So much better than D:OS in terms of loot.

I have no problem with NW2 loot, just the crafting. As you say crafting was it's own challenge given the limited number or rogue stones and king's tears etc, but my problem is that you don't know how many of those you are going to get. In the end after first playthrough i didn't bother with crafting at all as it was too much hassle for too little return. Just relied on loot and purchases which was, as you say, fine. To me NWN2 crafting is a con - I'm not interested in fiddling with crafting systems for their own sake, only if they bring tangible worthwhile results.

I'm not sure comparing the game to other that have supposedly failed is such a great idea.

The main issue I think is the lack of diversity in the items found.
It's not the power balance between craft and loot, i'm not sure it's that relevant...

That may be true, but what about an alternative way to try and go for balance? How about this:

Some modifiers can only be found on looted/bought weapons... other modifiers are exclusive to crafted items. The player then has to decide which modifiers are more important for their particular playstyle.

...

Oh wait, that's kind-of already in place with the Legendary-specific modifiers. Hmmm... it could be tweaked, but finding the balance would be difficult.




It's always a safe assumption for one to make to assume that not everyone completely shares one's own opinions.

One very good reason is if the game's skill system differentiates between, say, swords, axes and maces and the best weapons are only of a certain type. Ultima Underworld for example has the Sword of Justice (unbreakable) and the Black Sword (lethal). Such a thrill to find them if you've chosen to train Axes, no?

But if you are playing properly blind first time through you can't decide that because you don't know what the unique item modifiers are and you don't know exactly what the crafting system will do for you either. It's just blind luck unless you look it up in advance.

I haven't played NNWN2 in a long while but IIRC the guy in the monastery in your castle had an unlimited supply on rogue stones for sale ... but yes, in general I get the idea. You will only find a limited number of gemstones in the game. So you know that you will have to save them for "special items". How many of these you can finally craft is a bit random, true. But in D:OS you can't count on anything.

In my last playthrough which I finished yesterday I managed to stay away from savescumming and took what I found first. It was an interesting experience.

As far as weapons and armor go, it was fairly easy as I could craft acceptable ones myself. Two party members had level 5 rings and belts at the end of the game, because I didn't manage to find any better. Haven't found any self-supporting sarongs for my non-int guys either, so they had their starting ones equipped. However, I had a disgusting amount of totally useless random crap in my Homestead chests (didn't even bother to sell them as there was nothing interesting to buy apart from the skillbooks every level and the odd sinew, sextant or tormented soul).

In my first playthrough I did take the time to reload for better loot countless times. (Granted, in that game I only needed to equip two characters.) Believe me, wearing the best of the best or some mediocre stuff really makes a difference in stats. (Thankfully the end game is not that hard, so you can get by with crap items as long as you know what you're doing. And as long as you can craft.)

But this is not OK in my book. Random loot should not mean the difference between life and death.

EDIT: or if it does, it should be compensated. E.g. by crafting. Then you can decide whether to invest into it or try your luck with random stuff.

Have the same loot on the same places is removes aspect of searching and looking for something. I am sure that soon we would see a list of items with their location on the internet. Blah. Dont realy want it.

Place few top items on the specific place is good. It seems to me it is done already. That-slime-who-guard-the-lighthouse has a club, for example. I would appreciate a semi - random system. Lets say The melee boss drops a top melee weapon of a type which some your characters used in the battle. Also craft who can extract components would be nice.

The reload and retry for better loot is plague. There is a cure already. A hash file and the semi random function. Such a funtion generates still the same result based on the random number generated in the file before. So, you can have a simple 1kB file consist one thousand numbers. One number will be used whenever the loot generation is requested. File is generated at the game start. You can add another kilobbyte on the fly if needed. :-] So, every game is diferent, but reload doesnt help at all. Reloading sounds fun, but in fact id destroys game streamlining, move the player from THE game and focus him on the spoiled game mechanic. More over, it is difficult to set dificulty. Player who harvest 30 legendaryes defeat the ods much easyier then regular player who has 3.

Sure, some items are hand-placed. Like Clobbering Time, as you mentioned. Or the Stone Sword at the church. (Or the Cyseal Pie in one of the graves in the cemetery ) The problem is, we were talking about quality loot. Which they are not.

And it was never about saving and reloading having an effect on the game or not. It was about too much randomness and too many stupid items being generated by it.

Why wouldnt you want the best weapon? of its type, especially if you have a choice? I am pretty picky about weapons ( comes from my military background) and I would resent a game that gave you lousy, restricting and unexciting weapons, its supposed to be fun and over the top. The weapon I use doesnt have to be the best weapon in the game just one I like the best, and since loot is random its almost guaranteed to be a Legendary of some type and it will never be the same twice, I do think random loot in respect to its variance is good, I dont think that we get enough great loot on drops, especially from bosses, and that loot doesnt stay good til end of game.

I believe Sleepybadger is correct in that the combat and spell systems are the best in any game ever, thats why the loot system seems to be so glaringly unfulfilling- something so well done and good, makes any other fault no matter how small seem more obvious.

I dont remember much crafting in BG and BG2 or IWD at all. That was not really a game focus,....oh wait I do remember some partial items that if found could be combined or added to other existing items, that really isnt crafting to me that was more like hoping to find pieces of an incomplete set.

I do wish there were item sets in the game, other than Wersheep Armor, which is not terrible, it just seems to be the only one.

" we were talking about quality loot."
What is the quality loot?
Probably a loot which is better then you are wearing. Is that mean that correct loot generator must create better loot after each battle?

I hate systems where you get a magic sword and heap of gold from a dead wolf body.
If you fight with monsters those monsters must own these items right?
So case you will have good loot all the time means, that you need to fight with over powered enemies all the time.

Or you can gather items which your enemies probably should have, then sell them, extract magic esence, and craft to something else. But well, you still have a game with a lot of junk.

I agree that true Legendaryes should be placed manualy. Those items have some story. Have you foound a Peter Lee's sword? :-]
Your heroes, creates a legend in fact. So your items forged thru the craft becomes a legend. The color of item regardles.
Just check the Braxus axe, actualy its a junk. But it is the axe of the legendary Braxus.

true as well gGeo, what it is now isnt perfect, but it could have been or can be much worse. I would rather have it as is than it become worse, and I do regard predictability with very little affection.

So i guess i would say....(my only 2 points of unhappiness), after some more gaming and reading what others have said here about loot...

That SOME items should somehow keep their usefulness and desireability until the end of the game, changing weapons every 2 levels because they are no longer competitive is dissapointing.

Bosses should just drop better loot than they are dropping...not better than anything anywhere else, just no blues, and nothing mundane and not sought after.

Yes Wolves with swords and gold is questionable????, but maybe the wolf just killed someone and was dragging the corpse around like a happy meal for later and the corpse was loaded up with loot....LOL

Exactly. Killing the likes of Mangoth or Cassandra should not grant you a bunch of cheap stuff you don't even need. They could (and should) however, restrict legendary loot to reward chests, especially the ones you get access to after boss fights. At the moment you can go into the mortician's room and get a legendary amulet out of his trophy on the wall, while getting two cheap skillbooks and nothing more from the fabled Braccus chest. That's not right.

The problem being there is not enough "different" loot. It should not actually create better loot, but there should be enough parameters in the randomization so that you could find different (thus at some point interesting) loot. Having found the XXXth ring and amulet with Loremaster +1, I must say i'll just have anything else at this point...

agreed, both good points that could be improved and make loot better.

One thing I also think to make items more varied is to allow them to have a Talent not just skill, stat, or status effects, only on a legendary high level item probably, and not instead of all the other abilities but in addition to them.

The more I play this time through the more I wish my Knight's 2-handed sword from 4 levels ago would also have leveled up or it's powers could have been transferred to a new higher level sword.
Damge from the weapon is much less than a lower quality higher level equivalent item.

Loremaster +1 and any elemental resistance especially earth below 50% is a wasted slot.

It's one of these things where Diablo 3 found a solution (taken from WoW)

Items (White,Blue,Yellow) have tons of suffix, prefix, and modifiers and normal stats based on their iLVL

Uniques/Sets (Orange/Green) have specific ones, that have boosted stats depending on iLVL and unique skills or effects.


The only way such a system works is if itemization is properly implemented though. Meaning that most items that drop for a character he/she can also use. And there is SOME chance they are better than what the char has.

This requires many many many different unique skill effects that items can grant.. D3 has well beyond 200.


In D:OS; Itemization is basically just +1-3 stats +1-3 talents and 5 or 10 unique items afaik ,)

What I am saying is this, random loot doesn't add anything to the game in this case. Because the chance is very high you get mismatching +1-3 talent rolls and weird +1-3 stat rolls (+INT +STR +Loremaster for example... on a bow)

I am not saying D:OS needs random loot alá D3, I am saying that like Linio, to me the game lost a lot of it's draw when I learned that "looting everything" is guaranteed to give me better equipment than killing a single enemy. Because I get more rolls on Items, and thus nearly always better items than what unique dropped from a boss.

The only unique I ever even used in D:OS was that unique legendary bow. And not because it had great rolls, but because it's the only decent bow in the game...

Everything about that sounds nice, except that it is in some way related to Blizzard. Meh!

Also it sounds like implementing it would not be as simple as just making bosses drop at least one worthwhile item. I am hazy on how hard any option anyone is proposing would be to make happen, so I am not standing behind any solution for feasibility.

I would loot everything anyway, scavenger reflex, if it isnt nailed down steal the F*^&)#@ thing!

More unique item abilities is also a function of the rules, what can be bonused or buffed by an item? Remember in D&D ( back when it was new in the late 70's early 80's) when a +3 sword was considered awesome? There just wasnt any kind of powers on weapons, or very few, same for +1 Armor or +1 shield or anything else. Rolemaster the RPG really carried item based buffs and abilities into the range of coolness, heck I remember some items had 20 or so special abilities and could really be powerful or even godlike. I liked those items, and still would for D:OS. Hey I play single player only ever on any game, so I dont care about balance's I upset or being a megalomaniacal show-stealing greedy min-maxing munchkin-showboat. LOL aint hurting nobody but those mindless toons!

Some of the Legendary items we get in D:OS not only suck but are not useful at all, they are not prizes they are a waste of time, to loot, to evaluate, to even sell.