I'm not talking about small mods or add-ons but more like whole new campaigns/story lines made using the Divinity Engine. Using existing props as well as bringing in new models and arts you have made yourself.

Are you allowed to make any kind of money using the Divinity Engine, such as accepting Donations or Royalty agreements for using the engine, etc.?

I'm guessing the Divinity Engine is just non-profit for fun only purposes?

If thats the case I think I'll just stick with UDK/Unity as you can actually get something back in return if you make something good, It's just that the Divinity Engine comes pretty much ready to jump right in and start working on your game rather than building the blocks in other engines to allow a similar type of game.

Many Thanks.

http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=506592#Post506592
No official words from Larian.
I am strongly against this trend of selling everythings.
Modding for selling = end of the community. Period.
Do the community some good, stick to Unity.

I am pretty sure Larian holds the rights to its game, editor and any content made through this editor and content created with in-game resources.
So, no, thankfully you cannot sell your mods.

If Larian would allow it, they'd instantly kill D:OS' future modding community.
And, really, people wanting to sell their mods are plain greedy.

Now asking for donations would be fine in my opinion. I would never do this myself, because I'm not greedy, but if you published a great mod and people want to donate something for your hard work, well, who's stopping them.

Selling mods sounds more cancerous than EA.

No offence but it seems people are stomping their feet and demanding free stuff.

Something free should always be considered a gift not something that is compulsory or demanded.

It doesnt matter what engine you use to achieve a goal as they are all tools to create the same thing you have in your mind, the only issue is the copyrights with the engine owner. I hope that the Divinity Engine will someone follow the model of bigger game engines and release some sort of royalty agreement as I think both Larian and Content Creators deserve something in return for their great works.

Also no it wouldn't kill the modding community, people won't be incline to buy every single mod out there and not everyone will want money for their basic work, Only the most successful and popular mods could get away with it, and they should get something in return.

I suppose building games and content isn't actually work though heh? So I don't see why you happen to buy Divinity in the first place. Really if you want be CHEAPSKATES then fine just don't demand that everything should be free, just like in the real world, if you can't afford something then don't buy it.

Good luck to the modders that are pumping out good content for this community which demands things be free, as if their work is some sort of charity for good cause, because you know gamers need charity especially when they paid $40 for a game and think all future works are entitled to be free.

Warcraft 3 had a similar game engine, and most mods were god damn awful, the only one that had any sort of success was DOTA, which quickly became copied by other studios as a standalone game and surpassed the original mod, so I doubt you guys actually know what's really good for the community.

If you like something then buy it and support it, thats always been the rule.

Using a popular mod (DOTA) that was not only free at the time, but went on to put out a sequel that is free to play as your example for why mods should be sellable. Smart.

Mods used to be free, then greedy assholes started trying to get away with adf.ly links to farm pennies off of children. Now, not content with their virus filled ad referral pennies, they're clamoring to outright sell their mods like dlc.

If you want money, go make your own game. Don't try to make it on the back of a hardworking company's existing work.

You have no rights, unless explicitly given, to sell something you made using the work of someone else. You did not make the Divinity Engine, you did not make the tools. You have no claim whatsoever to monetary compensation simply for using tools freely provided by the developers.

Modding is not a job. You are not suddenly a developer or game designer simply because you can use the modding tools that the actual developers created. If you don't like the idea that you don't actually deserve money for making a mod, then don't make the mod. There are plenty of folks out there that make mods simply for its own sake.

Thats why I am saying I wish they had a royalty agreement where both Larian and content creators could make something like a 50/50 base.

You say modding is not a job, it actually requires a lot of time.

Also you are saying people that use the game engines such as Unity, UDK, CryEngine are not game developers because they are using an existing game engine to create games instead of programming an engine from scratch? What a stupid statement.

They are all TOOLS to create something. Divinity Engine is just more limited to it's own type of game.

It also comes with all the art assets, animations, sound effects, bgm, scripts, etc . . etc . . . That's the difference between a licensed game engine like UDK and a modding toolset. You just can't compare modding to developing a game from scratch. With mod tools, 95% of the work is done for you before you even begin. That's why most people find it insulting to suggest charging for mods.

UDK comes with art assets, animations, sound effects, bgm, scripts, All the content from the Unreal tournament game is there, and free to use no copyright issues there.

So I don't really understand, Why would larian care if people reuse their stuff and still get 50% extra cash?

Also what makes you think a modder won't replace all the art, music, characters, stories etc? and Just use the base of the engine?

No. The UT3 mod tools and UDK are separate. You can't use the UT3 assets in any commercial projects. UDK does come with a few built in assets that are free to use, but it's essentially an animated bi-ped and and a few meshes and textures. Basically just enough to give programmers a testing ground.

We already went over this.
No. And let's hope we will never be able to.
Modding community is about sharing, for free.
Don't bring capitalism into this.

I support selling mods. If people want to put out mods for free nothing is stopping them and the devs already effectively do this, they just called it "DLC". I have zero problem paying money for quality mods.

Like right now I'd like a mod that: Allowed me to choose between 1-4 characters, allowed skillbooks at every level, one for each "main" character, and increased the character options as far as appearance went. And they promised to continue to update the mod to keep it current for at least the next two years or so.

Let's say someone offered a mod with all of those features. I'd have no problem paying 10-15 bucks for it.

They invested know-how, time, and skill into a project. Why *shouldn't* they be compensated?

A mod marketplace might do WONDERS for a games longevity.

Look what it did for D&D.

They had an open source game in 3.5 and that system and those books have become such a juggernaut that the company that produced them is having a hard time reigning it in... creating the monster that could supplant them in the future because they stupidly abandoned their own system (Pathfinder).

If Larian said "Want to sell your mods on our marketplace? No problem, we take 10% of the sales and you get the rest" I can GUARANTEE YOU the result would be stunning and high quality mods.

I thought about it and then it occurred to me:

I suppose a thingy that modifies the original campaign, like a Divinity version of Devious Devices, or maybe "horse armor", I reckon it might not be a good idea to charge people for that.

Maybe the Larian people would be cool about getting a percentage out of the sales, and also if it passes some kind of "Larian Seal of Approval" quality test. Like, what if a team, through some miraculous process, creates a good standalone campaign or something along those lines? Like Blood Dragon good.

I mean, I suppose a thingy that modifies the original campaign, like a Divinity version of Devious Devices, or maybe "horse armor", I reckon it might not be a good idea to charge people for that. Full campaigns, though, could be a different story.

I dont know about you but last time I checked UDK had a lot of free assets including whole levels of props free to use as well a few characters, music, sound effects, pre-built scripts.

I seen Eat3D vidoes use all the ingame props to make paid Video Tutorials so I'm sure the copyright of those included assets is fine.



Completely agree with you mate, but there are people here who instead of having both options of free mods and paid mods, they DEMAND that everything stays free, they talk about people being greedy for wanting a reward but fail to see their even worse own greed, they dont want to pay but want to still have access to all contents, cheapskates is the correct word here by a mile.

Nobody's !!!DEMANDING!!! anything from you, if you're not willing to put out free mods then you can simply not contribute. There's no gun to your head. Nobody will faint, lamenting the fact that forum poster blazed did not release a realistic farting butts mod or whatever it is you want to charge money for.

Meanwhile, you could pick up unity, unreal, crytek, or any other actual for-commercial-development engine and go make your dream video game, and legally get away with charging people money for it. Divinity need not be a factor at all in this, unless the only reason you're thrashing about is because you specifically want to be building on the existing work rather than creating your own.

Here's the way I see it. Is what you're doing adding/removing/changing content of the game that already exists? If so, then no, you should not be allowed to sell that mod. Sure, make a donation link or an OPTIONAL adfly link but don't try to sell me a couple new armor textures, or a handful of short side quests.

Are you basically making a new, fully fleshed out game with it's own story, 30+ hours worth of gameplay, a mix of you own assets and existing (or better yet completely your own), maybe some core gameplay changes. I don't see a problem with that being sold, but I also don't see that being done by a single developer in any reasonable time frame, and if you're willing to do all that work, you might be better off using a fully fleshed out engine with well built and well documented tools and just call it your own game.

The problem with a "Larian seal of approval" (as mentioned by another poster) is that I'd rather see them working on patches for this game, dlc, or a completely new game than spending all their time sifting through tons of "one new texture", "a couple side quests", "some added dialog", "MOAR RECIPES!!" type mods that I guarantee people would be submitting to try and earn a buck off of.

The best mods come from people who are passionate about the game or their vision of a story not from people trying to make money without leaving their chairs.

I agree Neurotoxin, that small crappy mods shouldn't be sold I'm talking about big mods that are quality, but hey man if someone wants to pay someone else who made a crappy mod then more power to them, I wouldn't stand in their way, even tho I wouldn't personally depart with my money so easily myself.

Anyway theres no point arguing with people here that want force things to be free, people who wouldn't buy mods anyway, I'm not interested in those people, people that under value other's work because apparently spending hours recreating a whole new storyline with new features or arts that may take weeks or months to do is not actually work right? I guess those level designers who place things around in game studios shouldn't be paid a salary, those lazy b*****ds sitting on their chair all day!

Seriously people take your heads out of your arses, FREE stuff, content or otherwise is a gift, only one that has any say in this matter is Larian due to Copyrights.

And I hope Larian does find some way to allow more opportunities and reap more rewards themselves because they all deserve it.

You already Paid your $40 or whatever, you got your Game Divinity: Original Sin, You got the story line, You got the Engine Editor, You're NOT ENTITLED to any more free things, They are a gift from Larian, the modders, they should be able to choose to make it PAID or FREE rather than FREE or Nothing.

It's really a stupid argument that's not hitting home in some unwired brains.

More options = Better
Less options = Worse.

I'm gonna assume that you are delusional.

No one is demanding free content, in fact, no one is asking for any kind of content right now.

Yup I am delusional, sorry bud. I thought there was people in the thread that was opposing the idea of any paid content and outright saying no, in this thread and in the other similar thread.

Ok, let me get this straight. You are pitching a fit because people don't agree that you should be able to earn money from what is largely another person's copyright work, and you're calling other's entitled?

Also, just so you're aware, many of the people you are calling entitled whiners with their heads up their asses are modders who put out quality content for free because they enjoy it. We are long time members of the modding community. We do it for the community, because we enjoy learning, because we enjoy the challenge, because it interests us, and because it's fun.

Yes I'm pitching a fit as you can clearly see from my writing that I'm being completely hysterical and a drama queen about the whole ordeal.

Actually I'm just annoyed that people feel the need to restrict others because of their own greed, I'm just asking for more options here, I'm not saying free mods should stop all together, I'm saying we could have free and paid mods and Larian could also benefit off the paid mods and bring us even better future games.

But you are self-entitled You want to limit it to only free mod, you want to be more restrictive about it, the choice isn't yours but with so much protest I doubt it could ever be a possibility as a respect to the fan base.

If you are a Modder you can still achieve everything you mentioned and you can make a little bit of buck on the side to pay maybe your food expenses as a gratitude and appreciation from your mod fans. Geez.

People are acting like it's an outright scam. As if it isn't actually work invested and money is unfairly taken from them, it makes me giggle.

@mod sellers

Here, let me share some stuff:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,209.0.html
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=97132362
http://frontieres-nwn2.winnerbb.com/

3 major mods.
Thousands of hours in the making.
For free.
Shared code.

Yes, I know, it must hurt your little capitalist brain to see this, huh ? Making my day


And because we prize th value of Gifting. And because I myself had so much fun with amazing free mods, that I gave it back to the modding community as a tribute to nice people.

Thank you sir I really didn't know there was any truely free mods in this world you have enlightened me, I didn't know the original counter-strike was also a completely free mod that got bought out by valve and they became quite wealthy but anyway...

So heres the thing, I have no problem with you doing your thing... and for free...

So heres the other thing, Why do you have a problem with modders making money from people who actually want to buy their mod (given that Larian allows it)

You see? You want your cake and eat it. You want to restrict others.

I feel like you only read the first and last paragraphs of my post. Like I stated in the second, if you're making something that's your own (more detailed explanation of that in my previous post) I see no reason that you shouldn't be allowed to sell it. But at the point that it's something that should be sellable it also shouldn't be dependent on owning a different game unless it's pricing model is similar to DLC.

I get that the divinity engine is nice for this type of game, but with the lack of stability, features and documentation that comes with the tools I don't see this engine being something worth (at this point in time) investing the effort it would take to make such a complete work unless you are extremely passionate about it. If you're just out for profits, at what point does having 3 months worth of work bug out because the editor derped become a problem?

I'm not saying "OH NOES! SOMEONE WANTS MONIES!!" But I don't think you'll find the market you're expect asking for someone to pay for a mod. You would probably make more from making it and offering a donation button assuming you've released something that's quality. I've personally donated to modders, I always take adfly links where made available and can be very generally supportive. However if money is expected before I can even use it I'll probably scroll right passed as many others will I can assume.

I get that modding takes effort, time and resources. I've made a handful of small mods for minecraft, I recently started work on one for Kerbal Space program that won't be anywhere near ready for release for a while and I've made mods for all 3 of the most recent elder scrolls games as well as the 2 fallout games. That being said, knowing what it actually CAN take to make a mod, I agree the modder should be able to gain recompense, but that recompense should come from people that feel the modder deserves it OR it is of sufficient quality that it would be accepted as it's own game.

I'm not trying to start any kind of argument, I'm only saying that the resources Larian would have to put out to make sure "nude mod #42" isn't charging $50 for nearly 0 content is likely not going to happen. Sure you could make a painstaking process for applying for a "partnership" or whatever it would be a pain as well as strict acceptance guidelines but let's face it, there will be more people applying with little junk like that than there will be people who legitimately deserve acceptance.

I also don't mean to say ANY mod is garbage or crap, Anyone willing to put in whatever amount of effort is necessary deserves some level of respect for their work.

How would you suggest a fair pricing kind of plan work? I'll say it now, a charge what you want plan would not work out, there'd be people undervaluing their work, and people severely over valuing theirs. If you're thinking, "well I just thought like $5 a sale" wouldn't you be better off just going free, getting that extra exposure and having some people donating $5, some donating $10, and the occasional under $5 or not at all than having 1/3 as many people even bothering to read the description because it has a price tag?

Anyway, I'm gonna leave it at that. It's:
A) Not worth arguing about.
B) Not something we can actually change one way or the other, it's entirely in Larian's court what comes of it.

I did read your posts Neurotoxin, it's just hard to soak it all in and address everything.
Anyway I do agree with a lot of what you're saying.

However I personally don't feel donations (are they even allowed for divinity?) will work for story driven games, they usually do well for Multiplayer games that have a good amount of replay value.

Most people who play a story campaign will only play it once, finish it and think well that was great but meh, and move on and forget about it. They also won't come back for new updates, bug fixes and side quests so the story needs to be finished fully.

My idea was to advertise it through screen shots, story line, and videos and then maybe charge like $5 for a whole campaign.

Donations are great way for multiplayer games where people are constantly reminded and come back and engage in a community, It also works well with Twitch gamers, the popular channels that advertise their donations live make a lot of money from playing copyrighted games.

@Blazedwhatever
You don't get it, do you, that if you sell a mod, and if in doing this mod, you borrow anything from someone, you will owe him something (unless he is dumb enough to give it to you for free, and you get paid, and him not...).
So if you start selling mods, people won't share with you, because then, the gifters would be the fools, and the sellers rip the benefit of it. This is morally wrong, understand?
So if you start selling mods, it would be the end of the sharing modding community.
I for me don't want that, so yes, I would restrict you in doing so.

'nuff said.
However, seeing the morality of Larian, or the lack of it, I am a little fearfull about this :-(

Actually no I don't get you at all.

I don't want to use anyone's mod or whatever in my own game, I will be doing it myself + anyone else that I can recruit who will get a split share, the only people I would be taking from is Larian and that's why they need to allow it, maybe with a 50/50 revenue share or something for using their content to reinvent new content.

I'm not slightest interested in stealing content from other modders, that would be illegal.

Of course you are not.
So your gonna do your mod, never ask a question that would be answered for free by sharing people, not watching a free tut video, not reading a free piece of advice, not copying a single line of code ?
Good luck with your project.
I for myself will stick to
honesty: Rigale credits;
sharing: Random treasure hunt code + all Rigale code is available anyways;
and gifting.

Oh my god I just facepalm myself so hard...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Holy shit, seriously?

So any educational video or article you've read you don't think you're entitled to use it in your career.

Wait so all those FREE 3D tutorials I watched means I can't charge for my services as a 3D Artist?

I can't argue with such a moronic person, I'm done with you Cromcrom, no more replies to you.

That was funny though nice one, Thanks.

Good riddance.
edit:


In YOUR world, you would have had to pay for all this stuff...

You do raise a good point, especially considering the state documentation on the editor is currently. If Paid mods were implemented, nobody would want to share how they figured out how to do x thing because now they have a leg up on everyone else.



I still to this day play Fallout 3, fallout:NV, (Admitedly rarely ->) Oblivion, Skyrim, I even recently just reinstalled the first 2 fallout games. The first thing I do after a hiatus from playing any of these games I so love, is go look at mods. One of my main bookmarks is the mod release section of the Kerbal Space Program forum which is not a multiplayer game. Sure, donations and such are viable in multiplayer games, but I feel they are more so in single player. What's better than finding a new mod for a game you love, SP or MP? I prefer modding single player games over multiplayer because it's a pain for MP. Gotta have the right version for the game, the game itself has to be the right version, then everyone needs to make sure they're on the exact same version of (I've been on servers with 50+ mods without a modpack) all their mods, then one mod screws up so you have some running at newest some running at 3 versions ago and some that will never be updated and you have to abandon to even play with your friends because OMG! LEASHES ARE AMAZING WE HAVE TO UPDATE NAO! I've run a MC server before and because it took 4 days for bukkit to update we lost 75% of our playerbase because EMERALDS!

I'm just saying that Donations, referral links and even making your own videos of tutorials or features of you mods (with ads enabled) can be viable no matter whether it's singleplayer or multi.

The second point I quoted there goes back to a point from my previous post. By having a price tag you'll be losing tons of people that are going to go, Oh a new mod named "SUPER AMAZING BEST MOD EVER!", oh a pricetag? meh no thanks, without even reading the description. There are TONS of people out there that are willing to donate to a free mod. I've seen people so happy with mods that they've begged the author for a donate button. I'll relate to fishing, Sure with a price tag you'll get a fish of a specific size, but at a much lower rate and NO chance of catching a lunker (someone willing to donate more than the $5 price tag you would have set.)

I know I rebutted the multiplayer argument earlier but back to my MC server days. The server I ran had none of the pay to win crap a lot of them do/did at the time, like buying diamonds or gear or w/e. The only thing we offered for donations was a nametag color change. I had been talking to a friend that ran another server with the pay to win stuff and he said in the long run they had just about everybody donate $5-$10. I had a guy, he'd been with us for a few weeks. He told me he loved how we didn't charge for in game items and other things like that. He donated $75, which paid for the server for 3 more months. He brought friends with, who also donated, who brought friends.. etc.

It's just food for thought. I just strongly feel that keeping it free is a better choice for both the community and you. People can be very generous. On that note, no offense intended, but if you're modding to make money, you're doing it for the wrong reason.

I got ripped off I had to Pay for an Education... All I wanted was to learn...

My teachers taught me things they learned for free from their experiences and their own works, why couldn't they just teach me for free?

They also thought me things that was available for free on the internet, but when I asked for a refund they told me to go **** off.

Oh and life is unfair...

Everything should be free, I'm starving, I'm dying but the supermarket won't give me free bread... even the stale ones that they are going to throw away...

oh life is so unfair...

Ha.

You might think of cromcrom as moronic, yet he actually delivered something in his life. I haven't seen any examples in any of your "how can I suck money from people and into my own pockets posts" of what you have achieved in your "career".

Yesterday I wrote an application to load an L3DT heightfile and generate a DOS terrain from it. L3DT being a paying application. I'm in contact with the author of that program cause a while back I had to write libraries to load his lisensed file types into memory data. He had no problem letting me open source that code. I worked about 3 weeks on that in my spare time, lets say about 3 hours a day so that would be 9 days of work at my wages 1020 € or around 1200 $. So according to you anyone should now pay me because I worked on something I enjoyed doing in my free time. Which means I should also pay taxes on it. That in turn means I would have to register myself as a self employed person, which costs money. Again this would mean I'm an official institution that has to formally agree with Larian that I will use their engine.

Then again if you want to bypass all the legal obligations, to make yourself rich and cheat your government out of revenue to help society, I guess that is your preogrative, just makes you a bad person to the community , but well that's fine now isn't it. The world needs more greedy persons that only look after themselfes not enough of them yet.

I'm really happy for you, that you are willing to do things for free in your life. Now let’s close that case.

Thanks for hinting that I'm a greedy person, actually I don't consider myself greedy as I only barely make a living as a freelance 3D artist, and the I spend the rest of my time doing thing I enjoy.

Maybe you should go talk about greed in CEO and Business forums.

On a side note I have contributed to real charities before, I've worked 3 months for a charity for free, I've worked in an animal shelter too.

Games and gamers are not worthy of charity though so sorry I don't feel I need to contribute free efforts here. Thanks.

I didn't know modding was a get rich quick scheme, and that everyone would be throwing money at my mod, I actually thought I'd barely make sales but anyway.

I am a moron. I should have charged Zukumani for that:
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=525019#Post525019

However, Seeing the thousands of hours I spent into modding as a hobby, the sleepless nights bug hunting, I must admit I sometimes wished I could have made some money out of it.
I was mentally raped to release Rigale code, because at that time, I was a "keep it to myself" coder. But oh the joy when I released the ton of works/code for free (well, not really free actually, just asking for credits out of it...), the relief.
Modding should stay about sharing and gifting.
Then, if great mods catch Larian 's attention, their call to make them stand alone, DLC's and stuff. But it should be a "prove yourself", not a "deal before I deliver" system.


Mods sellers are not worthy of charity though so sorry I don't feel I need to contribute free efforts here. Thanks.

Cromcrom, I said I won't reply to you but I guess I did. As a respect to you, so that I never use your help I have now clicked on your user name and clicked on "Ignore this User". Now you will not contribute anything towards me, not that I care.

You seem to think making a short forum information post about something you know off the top of your head is the same as releasing a game content out. I guess all game developers should release their games for free because they all learnt and copied things from other game developers and professionals.

If you seriously think gaming communities need charity then you are sadly ****ing mistaken, I would much rather you all get off your back sides and exit the nerd rooms to never create a mod in your life ever again and help people in real charities houses instead.

First world problems.

Priorities all wrong.

People trying to make a living, I could understand that.

Modders have this stereotype of being nerds in their parents basements, it's probably true, because I can't see how someone who works full time comes home to his g/f, wife, kids whatever then wants to spend the last few hours of his day trying to make a mod whilst neglecting and ignoring everyone and everything else.

If you want to release a really good mod worthy of anything then you will need to sink in many hours and if you are sinking that many hours you clearly don't have a job and the only thing you are contributing to society is a free mod for a game, whilst leeching off your parents or government benefits. Not a great inspiration at all...

It's all about passion, not trade, so no, you obviously can't get it.

I would like to add that:

We stop derailing the forum post on purposely and the general trolling.

The original post was asking for some specific questions if you don't want to contribute and answer then don't.

Some people felt the need to include their strong negative views on the whole outlook, I'm sorry I didn't ask for your opinion about the matter and it's not a thread for such discussion take it elsewhere, I'm only interested in answers not opinions on the matter, a lot people have opinions about everything we don't need to hear it.

Some people have made decent attempts to answer and I thank them, so currently the conclusion is that:

No official statement has been given out about the use of the Engine but currently paid projects are not allowed.

And personally I am with those who hope it stays this way.

Your position is that doing this would generate positive growth in the modding community, and generate revenue for Larian?

While there are games where players are allowed to design things and make monetary gain, the only ones I know of must show that all the art for it is original work. I know of no standing game where modding generates profit in this manner and is successful.

There are however several games that saw LONG life spans from deep rooted modding communities, and current ones that will see the same. Diablo 2, Quake, Minecraft, Terraria, and Space Engineers just to name a few.

For the record your first reply "No offence but it seems people are stomping their feet and demanding free stuff.", was a pretty toxic first response seeing as how Gotcha didn't say he was demanding free stuff and even showed passive support for donations towards modders. So any arguments you get you brought on yourself.

The modding community for this game is in its earliest stages possible, not even all the tutorials are out yet. So much still has yet to be cracked, and slapping $$ on that right out the gate can destroy just as easily build a community further. There already seem to be plenty of dedicated modders who are working on everything from simple to extensive projects knowing the only thing they will gain in the end is giving to the community.

I just asked very politely to keep opinions out of this as the original posts is about answering specific questions, I really dont care about your opinion, The thread topic or questions is not "HEY GUYS WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS?"

The fact you clearly ignored my request really makes me think you're doing it on purpose, which is a shame.

The fact that you say I was the first to be toxic is by far a big joke you bloody moron.

First 3 posts to reply to me included an uncalled for:

Modding for selling = end of the community. Period.
Do the community some good, stick to Unity.

really, people wanting to sell their mods are plain greedy.

Selling mods sounds more cancerous than EA.

Sure I was the one that was being toxic and negative...

Great spot.

Also you just registered now and first post? Cromcrom is that you???

Now to repeat:

Can we stop derailing the forum post on purposely and the general trolling.

Just a reminder, on this thread, 17 replies are yours ^^

No its not me, I don't need alts to say what I want to say.

Its simple,

If you want to make mods and sell them, go ahead and try your best because you wont get far.

If you make mods and ask for donations to expand it then you will get somewhere.

If you expecting to make money for mods which are not official from Larian Studios then don't bother making mods at all.

Last time i checked mods where created by the community for the community.

I am all for this, really. Makes the best out of modders, who will try hard to make nice stuff, and people, who can show there support and being generous. I really think this option is great.

Uncalled for? You asked a question, I answered it. Whether I answered it correctly or not, that's debatable, but it sounds to me that you just don't like the answers that people are giving you.


I don't know, can you? After reading through the whole thread I can only detect one person that's being unnecessarily rude and offensive, and that person is you.

Now, if you want a real answer to your questions, you'll just have to wait until someone from Larian comes by. It'd be nice if you'd change that attitude in the mean time, but I am not getting my hopes up.

This is a forum, which are places of open discussion most of which is personal opinion so there isn't any way for someone to respond without it being an opinion. You asked the Devs a question which is a hot topic for a lot of people, since historically in some forum communities changes have been made in games based on that feedback expect to get both sides of it.

If every reply you got was of an opinion supporting your own I doubt you'd object to all the opinionated posts.




I didn't attack you with my post, and yet you quickly did. Were his opinions blunt and to a point? Yes. Did he call you an idiot? Moron?



Nope, I am usually someone who just reads forums but as this is a very hot topic to me I felt compelled to create an account. To me its offensive that there are so many people in other threads jumping in and making mods not asking themselves "Can I make some serious $$ doing this?"



The point of this post is a topic of should people be allowed to sell mods they make?

Then expect replies in response to this from all forms of opinion. I don't know why anyone anywhere expects to make a topic of such large impact and not receive every opinion on the planet.

There was a time when people who made mods did so for the purpose of giving to the community and using it to build their own portfolio of projects they've done for use when applying for jobs.

In my perspective, it's become pointless to continue these threads.
It's a to-and-fro and nothing fruitful comes from it.
IMHO all I see is that the pro-profit aren't trying to make a strong case and keep repeating themselves after the pro-sharing smite their arguments down.

You can't write a massive wall of "HAHAHAHA..."

Then a few posts later complain about manners and staying on topic.

Not if you want to be taken seriously anyway.

You got confrontational before anyone else did.

What's the argument for requiring all mods to be free again? I mean... why not do that with the game itself, right?

Why are you playing a game you most certainly had to pay for when you could be playing a game for free... and numerous examples of those exist.

The fact of the matter is that people *will* work for free, they'll share for free, etc etc for free.

But chances are they'll work harder for money. This is why, for example, you get paid to go to work. It seems the going philosophy that whether you're a ditch digger or a dentist you'll work harder if there's a paycheck involved somewhere down the line.

It's not always true but it's true enough that it's one of the foundational principles of our entire society.

So, if people want to make mods for free? More power to them. I have absolutely no problem with that.

But if people *also* want to earn income from the act of making mods why should that be a problem for anyone anywhere save that it threatens the current paradigm of "The people in this discussion forum are less likely to get free shit".

As is *Developers* already sell mods, they just call them DLC. To which you say "but the regular person has no rights over the content of the game and so shouldn't be profiting off it" to which I respond "And that has precisely jack shit to do with you and is completely between the modders and the developers, who might wisely turn it into an additional revenue stream".

There has been no justifiable argument for why the community has any vested interest in boycotting sellers of mods, or demanding they not be allowed to sell their product outside of "BUT MY MUNNY~!" while SIMULTANEOUSLY accusing mod sellers of being GREEDY.

I mean look if you don't want to sell a mod? That's fine. No problem. Seriously, no problem at all. Go for it to your hearts content.

But no one who wants to sell theirs should be barred from doing so because a few tight asses on some internet forum want to maintain the status quo.

Mr.C you nailed it on the head but the thick heads won't get it.

I just hope someday Larian does make a revenue share, I will be on the paid mod side and I want nothing to do with these free modders that want it only their way. I hope we have two completely seperate sections.

I'd rather make a MOD and share it with 3 other people who bought it for $5 each, than make a mod and share it for free with 100 people. I don't want to give anyone anything for free this is my choice, just the same way as 3D artist I no longer make free models for royalty projects, It's my choice. I don't want masses of people telling me they want this fixed or that done or moaning about updates, I'd rather have 5 people complaining about my mod instead of 100. I certainly don't need virtual appreciations and gratitude from people I will never see in real life.

But I am an outright scam for apparently even asking questions for such things.

What about the fact that selling mod would kill the community. Selling mods = keep the edge so my mods is sold = don't share that edge in case another mod take it, sells better, and I sell less = no more sharing. Don't help him, he might outsell us. A community is about sharing. No sharing, then modders are individuals, sticking to their own little greedy minds.
So because 2-3 people want to make a living out of selling mods, means we can destroy the modders community ?
I tell them: want to make money for a living? Get a real job, create a game out of dedicated engines, like unity, RPG maker, whatever, but don't destroy the hardly growing community here. Modding is about hobby, not getting the job done.

And, if by any chance, they finally create something amazing, that catches Larian's interest, I really hope for them it will become a stand alone, and they will get paid for it (Day Z, DOTA, and so on).
But until then, don't sell mods, and keep the community the great friendly and sharing thing it should be.

Anything you don't get in this ?

Your argument hinges on the belief that because some modders make money off the endeavor all of them will try to and thus the modding community will be destroyed.

The simple truth is that some people will share and some won't. But so what? Those that want to share and discuss things openly will share, those that don't won't.

I don't see a lot of benefit from forcing people into one scheme (Give it to us for free) for "The Greater Good".

Why not let people choose for themselves what they want to do? If the community is so weak that it has to be propped up by forcing people to volunteer their work for free when they would rather make an income from it then it's a shitty community to begin with and deserves to die.

I, however, believe that what happened with D&D 3.5 will happen here and we'll have a long standing and enduring community that makes use of this amazing tool we've *purchased*.

Grow up! You asked for a discussion and you got one. You're not a victim, and no-one here is stopping you from or forcing you to do anything.

As Mr.C quoted you Cromcrom I can see what you wrote so here some life facts for you:

Iphone Market, Android market, etc. free apps and paid apps, did the paid apps kill the free apps? No! Did the Paid Apps stop Education and sharing? No! Does Paid apps always do better than Free Apps? NO!

PC Games, free games and paid games, did the paid games kill the free games? No! Did the paid games stop education and sharing? No! Does Paid games always do better than free Apps? NO!

Get served, and now stfu.

Just a bunch of Dictators that want to force everyone into the free market because they fear their own works will die out suddenly, little pussycats.



Hardly, I asked only for specific answers to my questions, Negative opinions on the matter and flaming towards paid mods was NOT part of the discussion and I wasn't in the slightest asking for such conversation. I admit I did derail in the direction that others took me towards, that was their intention after all.

There is another thread here someone is making a Diablo 2 mod which is illegal and it breaks several copyrights but because it's a free mod people are cheering him and thanking him.

Then on the other hand people want to make some bucks for their work with Larians permission making original content for users who have the option to buy or not, yet this sort of discussion and modder gets flamed?

You think you are on the moral high grounds... Ha... preposterous!

You are ignoring what the whole modding community is about. You are no "modder". Get a job, Karate Kid.

When you start a forum thread you are starting a discussion.

At least you've learnt something from this I guess.

Mate, have you even seen the state of modding "communities" like the minecraft modding community? Mojang didn't crack down on people profiting off of their mods via ad redirect links for a couple of years, and the result was people going fucking INSANE whenever you borrowed code for your own mods (even with credit given), or updated theirs for them when they were too busy faffing about with other games or life. Not to mention how ravenous they got when mojang actually decided enough was enough and forbade adfly and other such links in their EULA. There were a few principled people who didn't use it, but it was much more common to see an adfly link that promptly redirected to a free file sharing site like mediafire or dropbox.

I really hate reading trash like this. Why do you "need" to make money to modify a game? Nobody makes you modify THIS game, go make your own, or god's forbid, get a job AT the company if you want paid to work on it.

Sorry blazed, but that is a terrible justification for saying modding should be rewarded with a monetary payoff. There are plenty creative hobbies that require LOTS of time. The main thing they have in common is that they are labors of love. You wouldn't be doing them unless you loved what you are doing. That has been the foundation for community mods in video games since mods have existed. Gamers aren't trying to demand free stuff. On the contrary, it kinda sounds like you are demanding that you should be monetarily rewarded for something that's traditionally not been rewarded that way.

Now...if you are someone who's hoping to get into the gaming industry, and you are trying to use these sorts of projects to make a name for yourself, do it the old-fashioned way: work a day-job, and put in your "labor of love" hours on your hobby time (Not the time you expect to be paid). If your end results are noteworthy enough, a gaming studio will notice. Don't try to monetize something that's been traditionally free since it's existence.

Train Simulator mods are being sold in quite a lively fashion, some people make decent supplemental income doing that. Naturally, those are pro and semipro-made models, textures and environments. Mods-for-sale is not without precedent, and Train Simulator has one of the most extensive and long-lived modding communities ever.

Now it doesn't hurt of course that the publisher of TS encourages or at least does not mind this, because it stimulates (in a roundabout way) purchases of TS DLCs (the entire library costs over $1000, and that's during Steam discount sales). Of course, paid mods get pirated and redistributed mercilessly, them's the breaks.

Most companies put the kibosh on selling derivative content though. I don't know what Larian's stance would be.

There will always be some exceptions to the rule.

Have you any examples of your UDK/Unity work that you're monetising, blazed?

(WARNING! The below is my opinion on how people think in terms of games, mods and tendencies on spending money)

When it comes to mods or DLC, I think people are more willing to spend money if it's optional, or as a donation, rather than "forcing" it via a price tag.

If I buy a game, and it has tons of paid DLC (Dungeon Defenders),I rarely (if ever) will pay for those, and will probably stop playing because now I feel "left out".

If a game is good enough and allows modding, people will make awesome mods (Starcraft, WarCraft3). That in turn will draw in even more people. Before you know it, you have a huge modding community, lots of awesome mods and maybe even ones that spark something new (DoTA).

Now here's an interesting hypothetical question. Do you think DoTA, LoL, DoTA2 would exist now if Blizzard charged for modded maps in Warcraft 3? We can speculate of course in either direction, but it is interesting to think about. I might be inclined to say no. Or at the very least, might not be as successful.

I just remember playing Warcraft 3 for hours on end simply because I could play this map, and then go play another map which was a completely different play style than the first one. If those maps had cost extra money, I certainly would not have spent it, and I would argue that Starcraft or WC3 might not have been as popular as it was. Maybe only as a niche eSport, but not for casual player that wants to check out all the cool and different maps people have made.

Anyway, this is just how I see it.

TL;DR

I think games which allow modding are more successful when the mods are free, and donations optional. Seeing a price tag on a mod (or in the proper term, DLC) is enough to drive most people away after playing through the original game.

Mods keep people around. And if they cost money, people are less likely to stick around, thus dispersing the modding community.

You cannot sell mods. It's illegal, because you are using assets that belong to someone else.

Think of it like building a house. There's nothing wrong with building a house, so long as you don't do it with someone else's bricks.

It's fine to accept donations, however.

I made an account to do two things, tonight.

To petition Larian to add custom sound resource support to the DE2, and to tell everyone that three years later, this post is still being read. And here are my thoughts.

Just because something is hard work does not make you entitled to compensation for it. The modding community is, and always has been, about sharing ideas, stories, narratives, keeping the lifeblood of a game whose heart has slowed flowing, out of mutual passion. Capitalism has no place there.

It was mentioned how UDK has free assets. Yeah, and you know what we call games that use the bare-bones assets? Asset Flips. And they do not have a good reputation. They say "I wanted to do the bare minimum effort, and I expect your hard earned money for that." That kind of shit has RUINED Steam, so we can all just look at that fucking mess when we want to remind ourselves why we do this shit for the joy of it, and not to make a quick buck.

Also, there are a fair few well known modders out there that have systems set up through Patreon, so if people want to donate, they can. If you don't think your work will be good enough that people would seek out your Patreon, take the time to donate, and give up their cash to you of their OWN volition, then your mod is shit anyway. And a shitty mod made to give someone else a laugh is FAR more respectable than a shitty mod with a price tag.

And if the thread would please take a look out the left hand window, we see Bethesda's Creation Club, a paid mod service currently in full swing that has a tenth as many likes as it does dislikes on it's announcement video. That's going absolutely awfully.

Modding is not game dev. Game dev is game dev, and that industry has been ruined by people that are more interested in skimming a buck than creating something. Keep that shit quarantined on Steam.