Just a question for development since soooooo far there isn't any beyond "Generic" which for the most part has no real background (just keywords).

What I mean are backgrounds which do not require you to play a very specific character. Where you can customize them as any race and build.

Or is Generic going to be upgraded to sort of encompass that? So that if one chooses "Thief" that there might be more then just thief dialog options.

Since to admit one BIG reason why there are "Character" backgrounds (as in backgrounds where you play a specific character) only is likely because they are the easiest and best to showcase with "Generic" not having much else to it, and others are planned for later.

I'm not sure I get the question: are you asking if there is a blank background or if there is a "generic" origin story?

I think he means that there are specific characters/companions who have their own unique trait/background with unique options.

I think he's asking if there will be any additional unique traits/backgrounds that will be restricted to only the custom characters.

My answer is, I hope so. XD

I 'think' Ayvah is correct. Though that wording gives me pause.

To give you an example of what I mean Dark_Ansem:

In the current (VERY EARLY UNFINISHED) game build when making a new character you can chose the Background of "Red Prince" if you do this your character defaults to... well... "The Red Prince" with all the traits, abilities, appearance, and what have you that the character has with no ability to edit or alter it. Essentially "The Red Prince" is a preset character.

This is the same, currently, for all the backgrounds you can select except for "Generic" which basically has no background (you get to chose from 2-descriptors that give you dialog options but that is it).

So currently you either play a "pre-gen" character with an actual background... Or a "Generic" without one.

So I am wondering if we will get "Custom character" (as in the one you make yourself) backgrounds that aren't essentially preset characters or mostly blank slates.

It is why I am asking since the game is really unfinished... so I can't assume one way or the other.

As far as I understand, in a practical sense "red prince" is just a trait unique to the red prince character (who also has other more generic traits). So it sounds like you're really just talking about traits.

Did you mean you want to write your own flavour/background text for your custom character? I don't see any reason why they wouldn't let you do this. It should be easy, but it also doesn't seem very important.

Or are you hoping for something like XCOM 2 or the Sims, where you can build your own character with a backstory and upload him to the Steam Workshop?

Ok I'll try to explain further.

YES "The Red Prince" gets the "Red Prince" tag which is unique to that background. Yet he also gets unique quests, he uncovers aspects of his past, and has NPCs specifically respond to his background.

And YES all the backgrounds get 2 additional tags (each race also gets a tag). These tags only effect conversations so far as giving you a few additional options.

However the "Generic" background will never get unique quests, NPCs, locations, or intrigue.

And the "Generic" Background is the only background that allows you to make your own character.

Well, it may very well have changed, but the (tentative) plan stated during the KS campaign was that if your player character replaces one of the pre-created potential companions, you can change:

A) sex, head & skin
B) class, stats & skills
C) name - unless you're the Red Prince
D) race - as long as it makes sense

Kind of sounds to me like all the origins - other than, of course, the generic one - might've through iteration solidified so far that none of them allow different races anymore, but don't quote me on this.

As far as I understand, this is all linked to his trait/tag. If your character is tagged as a woman, you will potentially have access to a couple of quests unique to women, for example.

So I think what you want (and I want) is for them to create some tags for use by the custom character only that allow you to make the character more fun to play.

I expect that if they haven't done this yet, it's only because the game is still in Alpha.

No, that isn't what I want... What I want is... well

To Quote the Kickstarter



I want that... But with a character I create and modify.

And "Generic" doesn't supply that... and the tags "Generic" gets doesn't supply that.

I am wondering if there will be Origins that do not require you to play pre-gen characters.

So, basically, unspecific origins? Farmer, adventurer, child of a merchant, etc?

Goodness it is like the more I try to explain it the less understandable I become (which is an unfortunate trait of mine)

Since I do not know what you mean by "Specific" versus "Unspecific" since by all means being say... "The heir to the throne" or "The Grand High Wizard of Lobsterland" sound specific since there can only be "one". So I will try to explain myself (it is going so perfectly so far isn't it? AHHH! Help!)

Basically origins that aren't "Generic" but aren't tied to being specific characters. Your "Unspecific origins" could easily be assumed by applying the "Generic" origin anyhow and just making sure the tags you chose fit the origin you have in your head.

Yet lets just say "Child of Merchant" was an origin and it was what I was referring to. What would it mean?
1) The merchant would exist, you could see him in game and you could talk to him
2) There would be people who know you who would have names and influence, you would have connections based on being a merchant
3) You could visit the trading post, shop, or what have you that would have to exist according to that origin.
4) There would be specific quests, optional goals, and rewards based on this origin.

In fact there would likely be some reason why this detail is important. There would likely be some reason why you start the game the way you do even as "The son of a merchant". You didn't just appear or travel to the plot some day. Your character might talk about how they were part of a caravan, delivering some goods, kidnapped by a competitor, or something before the plot started.

Not that there couldn't be requirements to play certain origins or they all need locations... Only so far that you have some input (especially name and appearance)

Yet I guess what I am asking is if there are going to be indepth origins that aren't Pre-generated characters? Since currently there are 5 Origins
1) Generic: You have no background and no connections. (Custom character)
2) Ifan: You are playing as Ifan (Pre-gen)
3) Lohse: You are playing as Lohse (Pre-Gen)
4) The Red Prince: You are playing as The Red Prince (Pre-gen)
5) Sebille: You are playing as Sebille (Pre-gen)

So basically currently... Unless you play a specific pre-genned character who you cannot edit, cannot change the name or, and cannot change except post character creation. You cannot play a character with any connections to the land, its people, or really anything.

Can you play a character that you create and edit yourself, give your own name, pick their race, their skills, what have you... Who has connections to the land, its people, and the quest you are going on (Beyond some plot "chosen one" Spackle) via their Origin?

I think I got it: are you talking of something ala Neverwinter nights? where the character is "the recruit"?

Even if so, I have the feeling that the game will make you the chosen one sooner or later.

There is no way to have an arbitrary character with a specific origin (if you can specify the character's name, no NPCs in the game could know them by name, etc). The origin would need to be related to something else (a relative, apprentice, employee, etc of a known person or organization), and all interactions would have to be restricted to being gender and racially neutral.

This suggests you're considering having substantial voice acting?

Without voice acting, I don't see why others can't refer to your character by name, just like the old days.

We have done that for years...

Ayvah;
If there is any chance some dialogue could be voiced, why design the system to preclude that possibility?

Even with fill in the blank name slots, there are still restrictions on how quests could be designed, or it would add significant extra work accounting for all the combinations of gender and race.
A simple name substitution could cause issues with localizations, as well (masculine vs feminine names, maybe differences in grammar).


Neonivek;
I didn't say it couldn't be done, just that doing it that way would put restrictions on how it could be done. That's fine if that is all there is; the direct comparison with specifically crafted characters, quests, relationships, etc, may leave such origins a little lacking.

Note that I have not actually looked up the current state of the origins, and haven't been following the writers' progress. They may have a different opinion on the value of writing specific origins around nonspecific characters.

That is sad... and honestly takes away the ENTIRE point of origins for me.

If the kickstarter said "You can play pre-generated characters with origins... Or your own with no origin" No one would have supported that. As opposed to "You can have your own origin!" the kickstarter advertised.

This makes me wanting to know the answer to the question all the more...

What do you think the point of origins is, if they can be completely divorced from the character?

Well I'll just get some quotes here as honestly Larian studios understands the point of origins are period.



It is kind of simple really. It puts your character into the game, into the world you created, and makes them feel all the more organic and your adventure all the more personal. It gives your character hooks.

Almost all games that let you make your own character pretty much make them basically a blank slate with little-no story and if there is something there they quickly try to rush past it so you forget (Neverwinter Nights 2 for example... you might as well forget your origin story immediately). Divinity 2 Original Sin actually stood out as something that was trying something different. It said "Hey, you can make your character and assign him a backstory which will even affect the narrative around them".

As well when I heard origins originally said I NEVER EVER EVER thought it meant pre-gen characters and in fact I bet you NO ONE ever thought they were...

In fact I'll go even further and the original videos shown for the game showed backgrounds as not being tied to specific characters.

In fact even the current information remains incredibly vague as to whether the game will have Non-generic Non-pregen origins.

Yet is it the case? The game is so early in development that the current 4 pregen characters might just be the first 4 origins (not to mention they need to be down since they ARE technically companion characters you get no matter what)

---

Calling you by the proper name can be done. Making "relatives" the right race can be done. Gender pronouns, can be done. As well most conversations in the game as they are... Are Race Agnostic (even when they REALLY shouldn't be...) and Gender Agnostic so it wouldn't even be a bigger burden on the writing staff.

I don't see this great barrier in giving you a backstory... letting you make your character... and having people from that backstory interact with you and call you by name.

---

But really I'd like to know either way... Though it might be a while until a developer lets me know...

You know, there was another RPG - one with fully voiced NPCs even - which also had player character origin stories as one of its major selling points and managed to handle full character customisation (given name, sex, and when appropriate also race) within those Origins just fine almost a decade ago...


QFT

I understand the point of origins; I asked what you through it was since you replied that it removed the entire point that writing for non-specific characters would put restrictions on how that could be done.
However, you don't want specific origins for arbitrary characters; what you want are origins flexible enough that every origin related dialogue, quest, interaction, relationship, etc, can have 10 different variations, and the appropriate data substituted in when you choose the gender and race.



Even after the examples given, ie with Gwen being a unique character and the heiress tag and related quest not being available to any other character? The fact that there were unique interactions to specific characters was a selling point (for replayability and world interactivity and immersion).




How many dialogues, quests and NPC relationships were dependent on the origins?

I'm not arguing that it can't be done. Either there are restrictions on how it is done, or it is 10 times the work doing it in all possible combinations of race and gender.

I remember Neverwinter Nights dealt with dialogues with a system that adapted to your player character's race/gender/class/etc. with systems like [bitch|bastard], [he|she], [him|her], [class], [race], etc. that you inserted into the dialogue and would automatically change the dialogue based on these things.

Substituting in the correct race/gender is significantly different than treating different races and/or genders differently.

Ok oddly enough I can deal with part 1 and 3 of your response the same way:

Not every piece of dialog needs to be changed in order to accommodate every single possible origin. In fact even the origins we already have do not do that.

"The Red Prince" even doesn't respond to every single NPC and dialog as "The Red Prince" or as a "Noble" or even as "A Lizardkin". As well even conversations he responds to as "Lizardkin" are shared by other "Lizardkin" regardless if they are The Red Prince or not. Meaning the effect of origins can intersect at points.

Or rather... The game currently does not have all conversations multiplied 5x (or 10x) to accommodate all the current origins as it is. That isn't how the origin system functions.

Any origin you select would only have to be relevant... when it is relevant. If "Son of a Merchant" was a origin you could select, it would only need to pop up when that part of your origin pops up.

There doesn't need to be a scene where your character blurts out "I am the son of a Merchant" to a band of Orcs.

Currently every origin gets its own unique tag (outside generic), two additional tags (that Generic can chose from as well). Then you get a tag for race and possibly gender.

As for the 2nd: I can create a topic right now asking people what "they" thought Larian Studios meant when they were talking about Origins. Whether they meant pre-generated characters OR if they meant custom characters with attached origins.

We can just settle it that way. In fact I have no idea why you thought it was pregenerated characters personally.

Edit: UGGGGGGHHHH! There is no way to rewrite the 2nd part to be nicer and less confrontational... >_< sorry Raze. I am not taking this conversation personal and I REALLY hope I haven't antagonized you into it... I apologize for how I written it at least.

Wait, origin stories are pregenerated characters?

Currently yes.

"Generic" is a origin story you can take, but they have no origin story (it is the point. They are blank slates)

The entire point of this topic is to get a response from the Devs to answer whether or not Origin stories are only going to be pregenerated characters...

OR if there will be some origins that aren't.

Correct. That's why I specified origin related dialogues (and quests, relationships, etc).



Because that was what was shown during the Kickstarter, and allowing fully customizable characters means restrictions on the content or about 10 times the work per origin (not all situations would necessarily depend on race and gender).
Also, that design would limit the types of origins available, to things which could be applied to all races pretty much equally, but the game world is not based on a society of equal opportunity. Using specific characters allows unique, and potentially more interesting, origins.

I'm not taking this personally, either. I can see the appeal of having an origin that adapts to character customization, even with the (possibly minor) limits that still places on the design. However, personally I don't value character customization enough to say 1 adaptable origin is worth the amount of work to (I'm going to guess) create another 3 or 4 extra unique origins for specific characters.

-Ok checking a VERY recent Eurogamer preview-

The current origins are not as strict as I thought they were.

Here is what chosing the current origins lock you in as.

1) You are locked into a race
2) You are locked into a gender

You can customize everything else. Even their appearance and even their name... Though it is likely, at least for some of them, that they will call you by your origin (though for The Red Prince it makes sense it is a title)

---

This is a loooooooooooooooot more tolerable then what I was thinking.

I still wish there was more then playing the 4 companions you can recruit...

But I'd take a "Meh" version of a feature.

As stated before, this problem has already been addressed in many other games including Bioware & Bethesda. I even remember a voiced line in one of the Bioware games -- the text had the character's name, but the voicejust said "Bhaalspawn" or something. Even if it can never be said verbally, I still like being allowed to choose.

(On the other hand, in a game like Witcher or Final Fantasy, I actually prefer not choosing, because the characters are already very strongly defined.)

Localisation is tricky, but you definitely wouldn't be the first ones to face this challenge.

Also why even mention voices? Larian already said the game will NOT be fully voiced.

So outside the "Pre-gen character" voices... all they would need is a few quips from every race type... Which they would have to do anyway because "Generic" is still an option.

Since obviously there is no reason why a Merchant SHOULD speak differently (and before you say "upper class" I should state that "noble" is one of the options for Generic as is "Jester" AND you can pick both under generic)

There are only two compelling reasons to not let you name your character:
1. The dialogue is fully voiced (though Mass Effect had this and still let you choose your first name).

2. You're telling a story about very specific characters (and even then, Final Fantasy did this and often let you name your characters).

Add 1 + 2 and you've got a very strong reason to have a fixed name (like Geralt from Witcher).

It's kind of a pointless argument though. It doesn't appear there are any limitations on character names.

Of course the generic background will never get unique quests, NPCs, locations, or intrigue. Those things require specifics. How do you imagine that a generic could get specific dialogue written for them?





So what you're asking for is more fully-fleshed out origins. More origins sounds like a good idea, although that does require time, energy and resources.

If you want "child of a merchant", but unrestricted by race (you want to visit the shop), then that means that you don't just have to create just one set of parents, but five - at least one for each race. But wait, there's more. You could be of a different race if you were adopted, but then the dialogue would have to take that into account too. And then there's the Undead. What if you are Undead but your parents are not? And then being Undead means you could be Undead for one of 4 races.

So that can lead to an origin like "Adopted Undead Dwarf Child of Elf Merchants".

Or "Adopted Undead Dwarf Child of Undead Lizard Merchants".

And that's just one f***ing possibility. Each and every possibility needs someone to write the dialogue, put that in the database, program in the different responses, and bug-test it. And we're not even getting into the "Unique Special Snowflake Quests and Locations" you want.

Do you really think that there's enough time and money to make each and every option for "Child of a Merchant" as deep and well-written as a preset character?

Sorry, but the Holodeck is on Deck 10.

Yeah, that's an absurd amount of work for not much payoff - I'm okay with just selecting tags [Thief][Noble], and having the environment react to those items instead of having my own custom quests and locations.

No it isn't... It was just described exactly 5-10 different dialogs IF you were adopted... and 5 different character models.

You people seem to have a really unrealistic idea of how game design works... or how... the game works.

I mean... OHH NO!!! Larian might have to create 10 different appearances for a generic "I am your father/mother" character.

Where is this "Absurd amount of work"? You guys seem to think writing 5 additional pieces of dialog as too much.



Ohh man... Writing 5 throw away lines and maybe 5 fluff texts about their childhood... Is soo much work.

Why do you have this assumption? Even the current game doesn't have this for the 4 origins that are already there.

Hello Mr. Pot. I am Mr. Kettle.

"No, You are!" :P

But fine you know what... Lets just deal with it. Lets just show you what you need.



-Resources: 5 sets of parents. Models do not have to be unique.



-Resource: 5 sets of models for parents
-10 paragraphs of dialog



-Resource: 5 sets of models for parents
-10 paragraphs of dialog
-1 paragraph of dialog



-Resource: 5 sets of models for parents
-10 paragraphs of dialog
-1 paragraph of dialog



-Resource: 5 sets of models for parents
-10 paragraphs of dialog
-1 paragraph of dialog



-Resource: 5 sets of models for parents
-10 paragraphs of dialog
-1 paragraph of dialog
-Half-work that goes into a single origin as it is

So there you go... The Sheer obscene amount of work required to make "Child of Merchant" assuming that they could be one of 5 different races AND that you could be adopted into any of them.

My pardon, good sir. How long have you worked in the gaming industry? Any titles I'd recognize?




No... that's not at all the extent of your request. You're missing some things. Did you forget what you, personally, wrote in this very thread?



You want NPC's who have heard of your story or suffered a similar fate, old friends or enemies from the past, a rich deep narrative... for a character that you create and modify.


And later you said:



That's 1-2 NPC's, for between 5 to 10 models for the parents. You're forgetting "people who know you who would have names and influence, you would have connections based on being a merchant". That's additional people and additional dialogue. There's a new location. There are specific quests goals and rewards based on the origin.

***
Do not say bull like:



Implying that that's totally easy and not at all work, especially when what you ACTUALLY MEAN is not that at all, but:

-Resource: 5 sets of models for parents
-10 paragraphs of generic "hello parent(s)" dialog per NPC
-1 paragraph of "hey I'm an undead now" dialog per NPC
-Additional supporting NPC's tied specifically to your past
-Additional dialogue for said supporting NPC's
-Unique location (possibly more than one)
-Specific quests
-Specific goals
-Specific rewards

And by the way, do not forget that all that is for ONE Generic origin. I presume that you'd like more than one. Multiply all the work which goes into the above by 1.5 times for each additional generic origin (and it's being generous thinking it would only be 1.5 times as much work).

How many other generic origins should there be? Bounty Hunter? Clergyman? Sea Captain?

All that work would go into creating origins which are much less fleshed out and much less interesting than the preset origins.

Per NPC?

Why would your best friend need to chime in that he is best friends with a Lizardkin? He is your best friend, keep the dialog natural.

As well I intentionally left out ANYTHING that wasn't part of a typical origin as it is. Since we are talking about "additional work"



Yet 10 times more interesting and worthwhile then "Generic". As well as giving people who do not want to play a specific person an option other then "Blank Slate"

--

Now lets talk about how Origins work as far as ordinary dialog works

Currently there are tags of Race, Gender, and Character

Generic Backgrounds get Race and Gender
Preset NPC backgrounds get Character

Whenever the game fishes for Race/Gender Tags it will substitute a Character tag if it finds none (or prioritizes them, either way same result) and fishes up the dialog for that.

Assuming of course there is race/gender/character specific dialog and there often isn't.

Now for Non-specific Origins you would get an additional tag: "Origin"

Adding a fourth to the pile.

Non-specific origins though do not replace Race/Gender tags. So most of the dialog in the game would be the same.

Meaning immediately they are less work then "The Red Prince" by a significant Margin.

I like this game, lets take random statements from other people, and attach ENTIRELY RANDOM figures to them, claiming that that's the amount of work required.

So.. what you're saying is that LITERALLY all you want is a origin story that says you're from a merchant family, and allows you to visit your parents merchantile, where you can have an entirely random, (but apparently limited a few paragraphs) conversation with them?

I think it is you, sir - who does not properly understand the way game development works.

See. the problem is, if they do something like you're suggesting, they wouldn't want to do it "Half-Assed", they would want to do it the RIGHT way, go for "Minimum Lovable Product", not "Minimum Viable Product".

Which means they would want your character to have several quests relating to his origin, with interchanging dialog based on gender, race, and other tags, not to mention they would want the origin story to affect more than just those few quests, which means changing A TON OF DIALOGUE throughout the game.

THEN they have to test it, which means testing with EVERY Combination of other tags, races, genders. to make sure that no dialogs clash together.

So you're right -It's not that hard, It _only_ requires them to comb through all of the hundreds of thousands (possibly in the millions) of lines of code they already have, locating and adding every single line of dialog for this new origin, plus the new lines of dialog for the quests related to it, the new lines of dialog for the OTHER TAGS within these quests. AND THEN requires someone to play through all of the sections of changed code (basically the entire game) once for each combination of Tag/Race/Gender.

Now, if i've done my math right, assuming 2 genders, 5 races, and 4 tags - that's 330 different combinations they would have to test for (Assuming they can only have 1 gender, 1 race, and 2 tags per character)

If we assume they have a team of 4 QA testers working on these, they are Agile, and use 60% of their time for construction, ("Two days" are actually only going to be roughly 10 hours of work), and each combination would take two days to fully test, you're looking at 165 working days, AND THEN they have to test them as a playable companion, instead of a player.

All of that, probably more than 165 working days at least. just for ONE of your custom origins.

I don't know. Who is my best friend? Is he of my race, or is he of a different race and we have struck up an unusual friendship? Is the village my Generic Store located in a majority-X-race town or a melting pot town? How does my best friend feel about me being a Sourceror? Does he know? Was my generic butt dragged out of bed by the Divine Order? Or was I captured on the road delivering goods?


Thanks though, for ignoring everything else I said, pointing out that a lot more work goes into things than you know to attack what you thought is a weak point.

Yes! Ohh my goodness you understand!



Wait what? No! dang it!



No I already explained how it works. AHHHH!

Why do you guys add ridiculous extra layers of work ontop of this?

As if being "The Son of a Merchant" suddenly means that you must talk to every guard as if you are the son of a merchant.

As if being a Human Son of a Merchant... Means that every person who knows you are the son of a merchant must suddenly talk to you as if you are a human.

They already said in MULTIPLE videos that they have NPC's react differently based on race, so while they won't have to change EVERY LINE of dialog, they WILL have to change a large portion of dialog that is Race Dependent, which still requires testing.

Ok lets deal with this!



If it is addressed, it requires one line.



This of course is addressed by the origin you see. I am not asking for a completely legoblock origin where you can swap out entire details for others.

So when you select "Son of Merchant" you get the same origin.

I never said it wouldn't take no work... However I should state that "NPC's react differently based on race" isn't an all the time affair.

We already have videos on this.

Now as I said "Son of Merchant" doesn't overwrite your race tag or gender tag so the vast majority of the game does on as normal. It is only when the game fishes up your "Son of Merchant" tag that this becomes an issue.

And goodness people. I am only one person (and the only person who even understands what I am talking about), and I have to rebuff two of you guys at once.

I am being a bit overwhelmed to admit.

To admit... My question might be answered in the Form of Undead

because Undead are not JUST a race... They are selected exclusively through origin.

So in order for that to work they would have to add a Pregen character origin for every single undead version of a race.

So... They might actually make a non-specific undead origin (assuming they don't change how they work and remove the undead origin)

It's not us. You're adding in layers of work and then claiming that you never asked for that. If you can't even be consistent about what you want from a generic origin, how are we expected to figure out what you really mean?

You have quoted a kickstarter post which talked about how certain NPC's would have special, specific relationships based on origins. You've said that you want specific quests based on origins. And then you say this:



Well which is it? Quests and additional NPC's, or just an origin which lets you visit your parents store?

If the latter is all I'm getting, then why would I want that? Why would anyone want that?


Now I'm not trying to attack you, but here's a stumper of a question: Why would Larian want to put in a mixture of high-quality and low quality origins? When choosing an origin, would there be a clear indication which quality you're getting?

Ohh no you aren't attacking me :P

Sorry if I implied that.

Two people counter-arguing me at once :P Is like overload. Especially when I get a bit heated or suffer emotion drop (made up name for when... You know you are a bit heated... but then suddenly you feel completely drained and depressed from it)

"Now I'm not trying to attack you, but here's a stumper of a question: Why would Larian want to put in a mixture of high-quality and low quality origins? When choosing an origin, would there be a clear indication which quality you're getting?"

It is about how much involvement you want your character to have. It would likely indicate it by the description.

I just kind of wanted something between playing "The Red Prince" and "Generic" a middle ground.

Where you are still your own character but aren't disconnected from the world around you. You aren't a visitor but a member of this world.

Dragon Age's Origins are indeed a lot closer to what I am talking about.

To admit it could be achieved through an expansion of "Generic" (a sort of sub-origin), but it isn't achievable through it right now.

---

Reminds me... All mentioning of how "Undead needs to be accounted for".

Undead is a origin. You cannot be "Son of a Merchant" AND "Undead" as they are two separate origins.

That's an odd statement to make. A Generic/custom background with no origins at all would be an example of them taking a half-assed option. It can only improve from there.

Are you also suggesting that every additional tag adds an exponential amount of work in QA? If that's the case, then I really don't envy the QA team in Larian.

I think it's clear that Neonivek is simply asking for "better", not "perfection".

I agree with this, but personally I'll be able to forgive the game depending on how many pre-built characters there are and how customisable they are.

But if they are going to provide the option to build a custom character, I'd really appreciate if they would take it seriously.

Origin tags do, as well as for designers and writers. There are relationships between different origins, conflicting quests, etc, in addition to all the origin specific details. Every origin added takes more work than the one before, just to stay at the same quality level.

Pregenerated character tags do.

Not tags in general.

As, for example, "Soldier" tags do not apply to the vast majority of conversation and provide entirely optional conversation pieces that sometimes do not alter the responses given to you. (In fact... Sometimes it does absolutely nothing. A few are just "thoughts" you have)

That's why I specified origin tags. Also, that is the topic of this discussion.
However, the other tags are not trivial; there is a lot of work that goes into each, and the more tags there are, the more permutations have to be tested.

There are more origin tags then the "pregenerated character" tags.

There are 4 Race tags, 2 gender tags, 10 Aspiration tags, 4 character tags.

Characters get 2-3 Aspiration tags and one character tag
Generic gets 1 gender tag, 1 race tag, and up to 2 aspiration tags

Essentially a "Character tag" replaces Race and Gender tags.

"Son of a Merchant" wouldn't replace Race or Gender tags.

Now each of these tags are not made equal. Gender tags, for example, have the least use.

This is reasonable. You're talking about competitive questing. I absolutely appreciate that when you add more options to the competitive questing, it gets exponentially more difficult.

You're implying that "Origins" are directly tied to competitive questing. What this also implies is that the "Generic" background is unable to participate in competitive questing.

Neonivek seems to be asking for the "Generic" background to be improved on, and asking for something that gives you some implied history where you could turn up to a village, say "hey dad!" and move along. Not an origin in the same depth as The Red Prince, with competitive questing and the lot as such.

It kind of makes me wonder why we're even getting the option to create a "Generic" character (aside from the fact that there would probably be riots). It really sounds like it would be a relatively crap choice to make, and I wonder how you'll stop most people from making the crap choice.

The reason Generic character exists is rather simple and I really do appreciate it exists.

You learn this if you roleplay with people but what a LOT of people prefer when making a character is to have someone with absolutely no one to tie them down.

There are people who would genuinely prefer that they have absolutely no one in a game... then to have a wife and two kids.

The issue is... That there is nothing between playing a premade character and playing a complete blank slate. So yeah it can feel like they are actively punishing you for not wanting to play one of their characters.

That sounds right, yes. For instance, the former Elf slave has a list of tattoos of people she wants to kill. That's part of her origin. That includes people that other people with Origins might want alive for other reasons. Origins give you special goals and special relations with people.

Generics by definition do not have origin-tied goals. They have no inherent personal goal to kill or negotiate with the former slaver, so there is no conflict with the elf.




The problem with that is clear. It's apparently a LOT of work to do just one single fully fleshed out origin.

What he is asking for is that not only should we get all the existing fully-fleshed-out origins, but also a decent number of crappy, low-quality origins.

A player picking up the game for the first time would have to choose between origins. If all the origins are mixed together, and they have to choose between high-quality and crappy origins and pick a crappy one, that will leave them very unimpressed with the experience. If the crappy origins are clearly marked as crappy origins, then why would a new player pick one acknowledged to be crappy?

What's to stop people from choosing the "generic" background and having an even crappier experience?

I'm not at all suggesting they should be mixed with the high quality Origins, but if there's going to be a Generic "custom" origin, then I would normally gravitate to it. What's going to stop other people from choosing the Generic background and being disappointed?

There would need to be some fairly prominent warnings.

Nothing.

However, there's a much, much clearer difference between "highly detailed origin" and "generic character" than there is between "highly detailed origin" and "crappy low-quality origin".

There is a difference between "Not all encompassing" and "Crappy low-quality origin"

Especially since, once again, there is NO Middle ground between playing Larian Studios Own Characters that They created themselves with their own stories and characters... and playing an absolute nobody who popped into existence one day.

It would be like calling a Motorcycle a "Crappy Low Quality Vehicle" because it only has two wheels.

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Also Goodness I wish the Developers would chime in and answer this.

So we can finally move on.

I think he understand that, but he's implying that creating a middleground would still be crap and would only make people more confused.

Whereas we think it should be no less confusing than it is now (which is something Larian should improve on either way), and it would make people less disappointed.

Hmm judging that Raze works for Larian

That MIGHT be the Larian studios answer that we will not be getting any origins that are not pre-generated character backgrounds.

Then again... His answer wasn't exactly clear or transparent.

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Dang need official answer!

I am not directly involved in D:OS 2 development. However, give that the number of known origins is 5 (so far) and it required a stretch goal to add the undead origin during the Kickstarter (though admittedly that is more work given it was also an additional race), it does not seem likely additional origins would be added which each take 5-10 times the work of the origin for a specific character.

If the number of origins was on the order of 100, some adaptable generic origins could fit in relatively easily (with the previously discussed restrictions). With the number of origins on the order of 10, adding just 2 adaptable generic origins would easily double (possibly triple) the work required.

Okay seriously, WHAT YOU WANT IS 100% UNCLEAR. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS WHAT YOU HAVE IN MIND. NOBODY.

This is a thing that you wrote:



That sounds EXACTLY like low quality to me. And there you were agreeing that was what you wanted.

I am tired of failing to guess the exact vision for origins that you have in your head. I give up.

You aren't seriously expecting me to go through all of DA:O's quests, are you? Anyway, a reasonable amount throughout, duh. Otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up. And with reasonably varying degrees of importance given by (N)PCs to sex, race, origin and/or a combination thereof. There was content (including whole origins) cut I am sad about it having gotten the ax, of course, but I can't remember a single time it felt like any part of the player character's background was unduly ignored in the finished (base) game. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I wasn't looking for a number, but a comparison to what is known for D:OS 2.

With DA:O's 6 origins, are the ones you don't pick in the game as companions, and do they all have relationships and conflicting interests with each other?
If no, then the origins in that game are compatible with the tags used in D:OS 2's generic character, and the argument that another game had adaptable origins is not relevant to whether they can reasonably be implemented in D:OS 2 (a different game with a different budget and team size).

I'm pretty sure I get it. The Red Prince isn't just an origin -- it's a pre-defined character with limited customisation. Let's not conflate characters and origins. I'm pretty sure he's just asking for some origin tags that can be applied to the custom character.

If we look at a game like Dragon Age: Origins, you get a range of different origins to choose from, but this is distinctly different from what Larian is doing with its playable characters.

There are different degrees to which you can commit to the origin concept. Dragon Age: Origins had six unique origins which should have had a mostly linear development cost. They built an origin quest for each of these which you experienced at the beginning of the game, and sprinkled some references and content into the rest of the game. I don't think anyone is suggesting competitive questing or DA:O-style origin quests for the custom background in Divinity: Original Sin 2 (aside from the normal level of content they'd normally provide for the other tags). But it'd be nice to feel like you've got a foot in the world. "Hey dad! How's the merchant business treating you?"

In Dragon Age: Origins gender was easily the most important thing, content-wise, as it limited romance options and affected the ending of the game (particularly as it relates to Morrigan). In this game, when you romance a heterosexual woman, she usually doesn't care that you are male and human; it's enough that you're male. In these common situations, there's also nothing exponential about adding a new, unrelated tag for "son of a merchant". Does this woman really have a reason to care that your dad is a merchant?

There were some characters who did care what race and gender you were, but these were the exceptions. Usually they'd only be checking against one "tag" at a time.

If you're worried about the more complex racial implications of having family members, then don't use family members. Maybe one of the origin tags is "ex-military" and you meet your former drill-sergeant or something. Basically anyone who might remember you.

I should state just for clarification that "Competitive question" isn't a result of the origins but the player's choices.

Indeed PART of the competitive questing are the extra initial quests specific origins have. Yet that isn't the only source AND even with those you can still chose to work together anyway. It is just a single source of competitive quests and the vast majority do not come from those origins.

Competitive Questing was a system they implemented that allows players to seek out separate goals on quests.

It basically replaces the Rock, Scissor, Paper of the first game and expands on it further.

That's a good point.

Haha. Something just occurred to me. Given that we've been promised romance, I guess this means we will have competitive romancing. After all, it'd be weird for a character to have all 4 player characters as boyfriends. XD

I thought romance was less a promised feature and more a goal they want to achieve but aren't sure if they will succeed at it.

The 'love and hate' stretch goal was about relationships, not simply romance.

Ohh thanks! I completely forgot it was a stretch goal.

It was one of the stretch goals we achieved, if that counts as a promise. When he announced the Love & Hate stretch goal, Swen also said he was planning to include romance anyway, but by achieving the stretch goal they would be able make it much better. He even had a brief romantic dialogue he played as an example.

Also, given that another kickstarter update lamented that they had fewer female players than they expected, I understand they have been thinking about how much it is a real problem, and how they can go about fixing it. This is a feature that is recognised to have an impact on the female demographic.

I'd be very surprised if they ended up cutting it.

I'm not sure the 'Love and Hate' stretch goal actually included 'romance' at all, at least from what has been said by the writers in video interviews and possibly by Swen, but I don't remember.

*cough*
https://youtu.be/JIFEFJjzTAE?t=4m3s

Also the tag line for the stretch goal was literally "A fine romance or a bitter rivalry".

Wouldn't it be funny if the only people you are allowed to romance or rival are the Companions? :P

That's entirely possible.

I wonder how awkward that might get in 4-player co-op. XD

I just realized that with competitive questing...

One way to entirely mess over the players your with is to simply know the 4 Pregens in advance :P

Since they will always be the race and gender of their pregen.

I just made an account to comment on this and say I do get what they are saying. This game popped up on my radar about a week ago, and what made me excited and had me considering purchasing it was the possibility of having so much flexibility as to how the game would react to my created character. But fast forward to today, and I saw signs that the character creation might be more locked than Larian made it seem. Realistically you have the 5 pregenned characters that have more extensive dialogue options and opportunities but are locked to specific races/sexes. Then you have 1 generic one that you can have more customization with but will be missing out on nearly all the cool story dialogue and scenarios that the devs put in the game which was a major selling point. So realistically as a player you're essentially having to choose between a set character with a cool story whose class/skills you can change or one that you can really customize at the expense of story content. Those seem like two very different experiences that are very different from how Larian has been selling the game thus far. In everything I've read and watched the implication seems to be what Neonivek was saying which was that origins would be less constrained as to how much you could customize your character. When Larian advertises the game they keep saying you can pick name, gender, race, class, and origin. But realistically the options are A. Pick set Origin and Class or B. Pick Generic Origin and everything else. It just seems a lot more restrictive than they let on. There just seems to be a dramatic gap in gameplay experience between the two compared to what was being advertised and neither option seems completely satisfying.

ive kept my eye on this thread, and from the updates and gamplays that Larian have released you are able to recruit the pre-generated origins as companions.
If you play single player and you create a PC with a generic background and recruit say the red prince, wouldn't you still have access to the red price personal story quests even if your PC is generic? so even if you create a PC with the generic background you still don't really miss the content if you use the pre-generated characters in dialogs?

I'm not convinced this is actually a deliberate choice. It seems a bit awkward for players to be able to simply switch characters every time a dialogue doesn't go so well. My expectation is that they've left this "multiplayer" mechanic in because they haven't built the single player equivalent.

At this stage, once companions join your party, they are essentially just additional player characters. This severely limits the kinds of inter-party interactions you can have.

I understand that there is a desire from many fans for the companions to be more Bioware-like, and this would be the ideal opportunity for Larian to implement their "love and hate" system. (How many other people will there be to develop relationships with?)

It would be awkward to have a Bioware-style companion where you can choose what they will say at any given moment. I expect they will lock down your control of companions once the love and hate system is rolled out.

Sorry for the Necro of this thread - It's been a few months, and wanted to see what everyone thinks of the tags system so far.

I've played through the EA area several times on both "Generic" and Origin characters, and the only really meaningful change is the story quests specifically tied to your character. You can still create a background for your character, and follow that background - You just don't get some of the competitive questing options - it doesn't seem as "Crappy" as everyone was making out to be.

Also, In regards to romance, I've played through several times on Ifan Ben-Mezd, and there seems to already be roots of romance growing, as the statue of the "Gods" talk about the way he feels about Lohse and the way he Looks at her.

I've played with custom characters a bit, as well, and the majority of it seems rather good, honestly. It'll probably be even better, as well, when you can earn and lose certain tags based on the way you act in-game. The only thing is, on most non-origin characters, I haven't gotten to the Statue, so wonder if there's, say, really unique stuff based on your tags if you're a lizard other than The Red Prince doing that bit / getting Bless.

Each origin character has their own mini quests with associated XP. You don't get these by picking the same racial and tags. There are also conversation options (some useful) only available to origin character and not tag based.

Can't say I blame him.

I mostly meant, you know, how the interaction goes WHEN YOU GET BLESS.

Has this been confirmed as a feature for release?