Larian Studio & Tencent? - Larian Studios forums

Just read a report that Tencent owns 30% of Larian Studio now? Havenâ€™t heard any announcment on the matter. Is this recent?

Can't say I've ever heard about it, either.

If this is accurate it would leave a very bad impression with me. Tencent is not just a Chinese company. It is a Chinese *government* owned and controlled company. I want nothing to do with anything Tencent-related.

This will be a result of Tencent's very aggressive acquisition policy, they have partial ownership of hundreds of non-Chinese media companies, and act as publishers/distributors for foreign media across China.

I'm not a fan of them or their strong-arm tactics, do you have a link to this report for us?

Originally Posted by kanisatha

If this is accurate it would leave a very bad impression with me. Tencent is not just a Chinese company. It is a Chinese *government* owned and controlled company. I want nothing to do with anything Tencent-related.

Guess there's a lot you don't want to be related to then because of their aggressive acquisition policy. But this "news" came out last year when Gamer&Trader stated he found out that one of Larians holding companies are 30 percent owned by Tencent.

It would be very bad for Larian to have any connection to the chinese communist party. If evidence of this is provided, it will definitely be covered in the media.

I remember hearing about this over at ResetERA about a year ago, but the thread devolved into sinophobia and got locked before anyone could really look into the claims.

If this is true at all, Larian has kept it extremely well hidden. In this case, I wouldn't be concerned about the Tencent side of things as they're pretty much everywhere nowadays, it'd be more about Larian pretending to be an indie company for the goodwill if it turns out that they're having secret acquisitions.

The only source I could find in regards to all this stems from a couple Twitter threads. Seems rather dubious to be honest.

https://twitter.com/GamerTrader1/status/1431899588324175873

There are good reasons to dislike state-sponsored intellectual property thieves. That's not racist.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari

I remember hearing about this over at ResetERA about a year ago, but the thread devolved into sinophobia and got locked before anyone could really look into the claims.

If this is true at all, Larian has kept it extremely well hidden. In this case, I wouldn't be concerned about the Tencent side of things as they're pretty much everywhere nowadays, it'd be more about Larian pretending to be an indie company for the goodwill if it turns out that they're having secret acquisitions.

The only source I could find in regards to all this stems from a couple Twitter threads. Seems rather dubious to be honest.

https://twitter.com/GamerTrader1/status/1431899588324175873

Yea, about that thread, I just read the whole thing, and while a bunch of posters were accusing everyone of being sinophobia, no one said anything negative towards the Chinese people, they just expressed concerns towards Tencent being an arm of the Chinese government.

China isn't a democracy, so when powerful Chinese companies that have to operate in China start buying large chunks of non-Chinese companies, people are going to be a bit anxious. that's not sinophobia. This reminds me of the current "russiaphobia" that is going around.

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari

sinophobia

Yea, about that thread, I just read the whole thing, and while a bunch of posters were accusing everyone of being sinophobia, no one said anything negative towards the Chinese people, they just expressed concerns towards Tencent being an arm of the Chinese government.

China isn't a democracy, so when powerful Chinese companies that have to operate in China start buying large chunks of non-Chinese companies, people are going to be a bit anxious. that's not sinophobia. This reminds me of the current "russiaphobia" that is going around.

You can't criticize communism without the SJWs ganging up on you.

Let's not bring communism or race into this. The issue is that Tencent is a big corporation that is also arm of an *Authoritarian (possibly approaching totalitarian?)* government. Either of those issues would be bad enough alone (owned by big corporation = not indie & pure-profit motives will inevitably stifle creativity and fun; owned by an authoritarian government = possible censorship or forced content), and both together is obviously worse.

BUT, 30% ownership doesn't mean much(right?), especially when Swen owns >50%. That means that Larian still retains control of their products. Tencent could cause a lot of financial harm to Larian by suddenly selling all their shares, and may try to influence Larian's products through such threats, or they may try to buy more shares of Larian to get >50% which then would be bad. But as is, things seem...fine?

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

... no one said anything negative towards the Chinese people, they just expressed concerns towards Tencent being an arm of the Chinese government.

China isn't a democracy, so when powerful Chinese companies that have to operate in China start buying large chunks of non-Chinese companies, people are going to be a bit anxious. that's not sinophobia. This reminds me of the current "russiaphobia" that is going around.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Let's not bring communism or race into this. The issue is that Tencent is a big corporation that is also arm of an *Authoritarian (possibly approaching totalitarian?)* government. Either of those issues would be bad enough alone (owned by big corporation = not indie & pure-profit motives will inevitably stifle creativity and fun; owned by an authoritarian government = possible censorship or forced content), and both together is obviously worse.

^Agreed.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Let's not bring communism or race into this.

No one is "bringing" communism "into this." The point of the thread is that Larian may have communist business partners. If true, that will tarnish the studio's reputation.

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Yea, about that thread, I just read the whole thing, and while a bunch of posters were accusing everyone of being sinophobia, no one said anything negative towards the Chinese people, they just expressed concerns towards Tencent being an arm of the Chinese government.

China isn't a democracy, so when powerful Chinese companies that have to operate in China start buying large chunks of non-Chinese companies, people are going to be a bit anxious. that's not sinophobia. This reminds me of the current "russiaphobia" that is going around.

I probably worded that wrong, the thread was more closed out of accusations of sinophobia towards the OP and the tweets quoted. I'm Chinese myself and I still say fuck the CCP, I know the difference between people talking shit about the government and actually being racist.

Either way, I still think the sources of this supposed 30% stake are dubious. No one seems to have dug up anything further or bothered to really investigate to verify this. Even if the source seems trustworthy, it's still just one person that has looked into this. 30% stake isn't majority ownership but it's a huge chunk and a big cause of concern if true, and I'd be VERY concerned if this was somehow managed to be hidden for at least a year.

I had to go fairly deep for this one, but i found a secondary source that connects the two:

https://ie.globaldatabase.com/company/larian-group-holdings-limited

interesting.

It says that Tencent has preference shares where the other two have ordinary shares. I didn't know what preference shares were so I found this:

"Preference shares are most often issued to investors, while ordinary shares are often given out to startup business founders. Preference shares give shareholders a priority when it comes to being paid company dividends, but they have less input into the strategy of the business."

Source:
https://crestlegal.com/ordinary-shares-vs-preference-shares/

So at least it sounds like they have less say into how Larian does things due to their share type.

Originally Posted by machinus

Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Let's not bring communism or race into this.

No one is "bringing" communism "into this." The point of the thread is that Larian may have communist business partners. If true, that will tarnish the studio's reputation.

Fair, "bringing" was probably the wrong word because, sure, Larian does technically seem have a communist business partner. And yes, some people will dislike that association purely because of the word "communism."

But in the phrase "Larian may be partnered with Tencent, a big company owned by the Chinese Communist Government," the words "big company" and "government" (specifically, the authoritarian nature of said government) are by far the most important. So I suppose it would have been better so say let's not *focus* on communism or race, but instead on the more important things, some of which (cough cough EA, Activision, Ubisoft) have been proven to have disastrous effects on small studios.

Originally Posted by nitriso

[...]
So at least it sounds like they have less say into how Larian does things due to their share type.

That's good.

My indie dev narrative is crumbling...

I'm also mildly concerned about how Tencent managed this, and not like, anyone else being in on it. Did someone at Larian just personally invite them in?

Can Larian still call themselves indie anymore? It's all so weird.

I thought this was common knowledge. I swear I've seen this topic come up on multiple forums. Sven owns 62% of the company. His wife owns 8%, and then Tencent owns 30%.

IIRC, him and his wife used to own 100% and funded his company via loans, but after that almost bankrupted Larian during the making of DOS (since they require constant repayment) I think he probably thought Equity funding was the way to go. For the majority of "companies" that have staff and need a steady cashflow, you're either funding yourself via Equity (i.e. Venture Capital or a stake like this from Tencent), or you're taking on loans. Both ways have cost.

I never thought it was a huge deal myself. Owning 51% of a company is essentially the same as owning 100% from a control standpoint. The unfortunate truth is most of the funding/capital available comes from pretty sketch sources. Even loans come from banks who are basically sketchy AF (especially if you think about who's money they tend to manage).

It's exceeding rare for a proper indie gaming "studios" (i.e. with staff and salaries that you have to pay) to be 100% owned. That really only works when you're 1 person with savings, working from home. Once you have a staff before you've even sold one game, the money's gotta come from somewhere.

For example, Owlcat is an "indie studio", but it's also a full subsidiary (i.e. owner has less than 50%) - previously it belonged to My.Games / VK.com (Russian social media megacorp). Now it is a subsidiary to GEM Capital a private equity / venture capital based in Cyprus.

Originally Posted by Topgoon

I thought this was common knowledge. I swear I've seen this topic come up on multiple forums. Sven owns 62% of the company. His wife owns 8%, and then Tencent owns 30%.

IIRC, him and his wife used to own 100% and funded his company via loans, but after that almost bankrupted Larian during the making of DOS (since they require constant repayment) I think he probably thought Equity funding was the way to go. For the majority of "companies" that have staff and need a steady cashflow, you're either funding yourself via Equity (i.e. Venture Capital or a stake like this from Tencent), or you're taking on loans. Both ways have cost.

I never thought it was a huge deal myself. Owning 51% of a company is essentially the same as owning 100% from a control standpoint. The unfortunate truth is most of the funding/capital available comes from pretty sketch sources. Even loans come from banks who are basically sketchy AF (especially if you think about who's money they tend to manage).

It's exceeding rare for a proper indie gaming "studios" (i.e. with staff and salaries that you have to pay) to be 100% owned. That really only works when you're 1 person with savings, working from home. Once you have a staff before you've even sold one game, the money's gotta come from somewhere.

For example, Owlcat is an "indie studio", but it's also a full subsidiary (i.e. owner has less than 50%) - previously it belonged to My.Games / VK.com (Russian social media megacorp). Now it is a subsidiary to GEM Capital a private equity / venture capital based in Cyprus.

This misses the point some of us are making. I'm totally fine with everything you say here. I understand how business works, and am completely fine with companies bringing in investors. In fact, that's exactly how they ought to operate.

The issue here is not that some outside investor owns 30% of Larian. The issue here is that investor is Tencent. It is specifically Tencent with whom I have a grave problem.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari

I'm also mildly concerned about how Tencent managed this, and not like, anyone else being in on it. Did someone at Larian just personally invite them in?

Can Larian still call themselves indie anymore? It's all so weird.

I mean, this is literally the purpose of the entire investment banking industry. They act as intermediary between companies and potential investors, and probably helped Larian pitch and find various investors when they decided they wanted to switch from debt funding to equity funding.

Of all the various investors the bank approached for Larian, Tencent likely gave them the best valuation/deal.

Originally Posted by kanisatha

This misses the point some of us are making. I'm totally fine with everything you say here. I understand how business works, and am completely fine with companies bringing in investors. In fact, that's exactly how they ought to operate.

The issue here is not that some outside investor owns 30% of Larian. The issue here is that investor is Tencent. It is specifically Tencent with whom I have a grave problem.

I'm not the biggest fan of Tencent or the Chinese Government myself, but for me, as long as that controlling stake stays at 30% and Swen remains at 51%+, it really is at the end of the day just a source of funding. This isn't a Riot Games situation where Tencent actually owns 100% and thus can dictate and impact business decisions.

If you want to look at who owns what and judge base on where funding is coming from, that can be an endless rabbit hole.

If it makes you feel any better, the largest shareholder of Tencent is actually Nasper, a Dutch/South African company at 31% (no one has a larger share). The original founders around 8.4 and 3.5% respectively. Because the company is based in China and given their system there, the Chinese government obviously can exert a lot of control over how the company operates (i.e. they recently tanked Tencent's stock due to that whole thing about limiting gaming hours). That's where the most troubling sway comes from IMO.

The truth is, a tiny company like Larian is a rounding error for a company like Tencent. The stake is probably more likely Tencent not wanting to hold onto too much cash and wanting to put into proper diversified securities with decent ROI instead. Almost all company try not to hoard too much cash because you are losing tons of money letting it sit there when it could have been invested.

Originally Posted by Topgoon

it really is at the end of the day just a source of funding.

Ya but what is their view on shove as a bonus action?

Originally Posted by Ranxerox

Ya but what is their view on shove as a bonus action?

Hahaha Thank you for a good laugh.

Originally Posted by kanisatha

The issue here is not that some outside investor owns 30% of Larian. The issue here is that investor is Tencent. It is specifically Tencent with whom I have a grave problem.

Yes, this is the most concerning part of the rumor. It does not matter if law-abiding investors own a minority stake of the studio. But doing business with any communist-controlled company, especially in a regime with aggressive censorship and intellectual property theft policies, is not consistent with the image that Larian has crafted about themselves.

Originally Posted by kanisatha

If this is accurate it would leave a very bad impression with me. Tencent is not just a Chinese company. It is a Chinese *government* owned and controlled company. I want nothing to do with anything Tencent-related.

It's a "government" owned controlled company? where you got that from or the source is "trust me bro"?. anyway i don't care much about politics and shouldn't bring it into gaming too. as long larian deliver me a fun awesome game i care nothing more.

Originally Posted by Archaven

Originally Posted by kanisatha

If this is accurate it would leave a very bad impression with me. Tencent is not just a Chinese company. It is a Chinese *government* owned and controlled company. I want nothing to do with anything Tencent-related.

It's a "government" owned controlled company? where you got that from or the source is "trust me bro"?. anyway i don't care much about politics and shouldn't bring it into gaming too. as long larian deliver me a fun awesome game i care nothing more.

The CCP has unlimited authority over every business in mainland China. It does not "control" daily operations, but it steals all IP from them, censors any content it does not like, and can imprison executives or interfere in financing, advertising, production, labor, or anything else it wants to. If you don't know this, educate yourself about the world.

Originally Posted by machinus

Originally Posted by Archaven

Originally Posted by kanisatha

If this is accurate it would leave a very bad impression with me. Tencent is not just a Chinese company. It is a Chinese *government* owned and controlled company. I want nothing to do with anything Tencent-related.

It's a "government" owned controlled company? where you got that from or the source is "trust me bro"?. anyway i don't care much about politics and shouldn't bring it into gaming too. as long larian deliver me a fun awesome game i care nothing more.

The CCP has unlimited authority over every business in mainland China. It does not "control" daily operations, but it steals all IP from them, censors any content it does not like, and can imprison executives or interfere in financing, advertising, production, labor, or anything else it wants to. If you don't know this, educate yourself about the world.

i'm more educated myself about the world thank you. maybe you should too and not buy into propaganda easily. again i'm not interested in discussing politics here but in the game itself. regardless of any publisher i hope we have some news soon about bg3.

Originally Posted by Archaven

i'm more educated myself about the world thank you. maybe you should too and not buy into propaganda easily. again i'm not interested in discussing politics here but in the game itself. regardless of any publisher i hope we have some news soon about bg3.

You're clearly not educated if you think facts about communism are "propaganda." Try reading books.

No politics please, Machinus. And your general attitude needs to calm down a bit. A big bit.

westerners and sinophobia, name a better duo...

Originally Posted by The Composer

No politics please, Machinus. And your general attitude needs to calm down a bit. A big bit.

Is it possible to maybe remove offending/baiting comments without nuking the whole thread?

Such as comments
- implying that all Westerners are sinophobes
- arguing about Communism

I don't think it's fair to close down conversation about something related to the game because of couple of bad faith posters are either arguing and or baiting

Originally Posted by Manw/noface

westerners and sinophobia, name a better duo...

"Internet discussions and dumb generalizations" comes to mind.

Yup, I'm not going to take the strawman bait of "any criticism of China = sinophobia." That's just straightup B.S.

My concern is Tencent attempting to exert content censorship and/or manipulation. Recently, we had the example of Tencent having a minority financial stake in Paramount's new Top Gun movie. They used that stake to demand, based on their government's demands, that Paramount remove the flags of Japan and Taiwan from Maverick's iconic flight jacket. Initially, Paramount caved and agreed to the censorship. But word leaked out and there was a huge public backlash. Then Paramount reversed itself and rejected Tencent's demands. So Tencent withdrew its financial investment in the movie.

In this instance, eventually, things worked out exactly as they should have. But this sort of thing worries me greatly.

+1

Originally Posted by kanisatha

Yup, I'm not going to take the strawman bait of "any criticism of China = sinophobia." That's just straightup B.S.

"Sinophobia" (which is not a real thing) and propaganda, don't forget.

Originally Posted by machinus

"Sinophobia" (which is not a real thing)

Prejudice against Chinese people is very real. If you wish to argue (for or against) the presence and/or extent of such prejudice in a given context, well, that is another matter altogether, but to categorically deny it exists at all is flat-out stupid.

Originally Posted by kanisatha

But this sort of thing worries me greatly.

That said, yes, there are cultural differences which tend to result in alterations or even blatant censorship in a foreign work if a Chinese company fronts enough capital towards such an endeavor. Good luck securing Chinese investment for a film with a heroic/main character that happens to be homosexual/bisexual.

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Good luck securing Chinese investment for a film with a heroic/main character that happens to be homosexual/bisexual.

Speaking of, this is clearly present in BG3. So, to date, can anyone say there's been pressure to remove such elements?

--- --- ---
--- --- ---

https://pen.org/report/made-in-hollywood-censored-by-beijing/

Quote

In 2016, Chinaâ€™s National Peopleâ€™s Congress passed the Film Industry Promotion Law, the first national law on film in China.31 The Law formalized many of the governmentâ€™s long-standing regulatory policies, including many of their policies around censorship. Article 16 of the lawâ€”which came into effect in March 2017â€”sets out a fairly comprehensive list of the content that Beijing bans from its film screens.

(1) violations of the basic principles of the Constitution, incitement of resistance to or undermining of implementation of the Constitution, laws, or administrative regulations;

(2) endangerment of the national unity, sovereignty or territorial integrity; leaking state secrets; endangering national security; harming national dignity, honor or interests; advocating terrorism or extremism;

(3) belittling exceptional ethnic cultural traditions, incitement of ethnic hatred or ethnic discrimination, violations of ethnic customs, distortion of ethnic history or ethnic historical figures, injuring ethnic sentiments or undermining ethnic unity;

(4) inciting the undermining of national religious policy, advocating cults or superstitions;

(5) endangerment of social morality, disturbing social order, undermining social stability; promoting pornography, gambling, drug use, violence, or terror; instigation of crimes or imparting criminal methods;

(6) violations of the lawful rights and interests of minors or harming the physical and psychological health of minors;

(7) insults of defamation of others, or spreading othersâ€™ private information and infringement of othersâ€™ lawful rights and interests;

(8) other content prohibited by laws or administrative regulations.

--- --- ---

Part of the reason why I didn't spent a solitary red cent on the first Doctor Strange film (well, in addition to the fact that I loathe the MCU) is because Chinese governmental pressure resulted in material related to Tibet getting excised...even though Tibet plays an important role in the comics.

well this thread is done.

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

well this thread is done.

Do you prefer medium-rare or well done?

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Prejudice

There is no prejudice here. Nobody is phobic. Calm down with your SJW. Larian shouldn't be in business with communists. This has nothing to do with prejudice.

Originally Posted by machinus

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Prejudice

There is no prejudice here. Nobody is phobic.

Originally Posted by machinus

This has nothing to do with prejudice.

Re-read what you typed.

Originally Posted by machinus

"Sinophobia" (which is not a real thing)

I corrected your incorrect assertion; sinophobia is a real sociological phenomenon.

Originally Posted by machinus

Calm down with your SJW.

If you keep tossing around "SJW" towards anyone that even slightly disagrees with you, you'll end up watering down the (to you) pejorative.

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

well this thread is done.

Indeed.

It's not going anywhere so I think it's time to call it a day.