First of all, thank you for a great game so far. The following critique should be taken as an exception to an otherwise great experience.

Not far into the game you are put on the trail of finding the githyanki, because it is a possible way to get rid of the tadpoles in your head, something you would really want to do. However, when you do find them it quickly becomes apparent that the resulting fight might not be possible to win without more experience. But in the early access there is a level cap of 4. Given the githyanki hit points, attacks and damage it would seem they are something corresponding to 7th level characters in actual power (not formal level). A party of four 4th level characters against a party of four 7th level characters is hardly balanced. Now I know some would say the fight is easy, they did it already on 3th level with one hand tied behind their back. To this I only ask: Why would the game allow you to easily win such an unbalanced fight? Personally I have yet to win. Even bringing in the ogres did not do the trick for me. And if you win, I have heard you get a great prize in form of magical weapons which you could argue, is too high a gain for 4th level characters. Clearly this encounter was meant for a 6th or 7th level party?

My point here is not that the fight is too tough (although I DO think it is too tough for the level). My point is the simple question, why would the story lead the party into this encounter at such an early stage? There are probably some story related reason, but in terms of balance of power it seems absurd.

As a side note I should say I managed all the other fights in the game (that I have encountered), some easier than others, but all entertaining. Being slaughtered by githyanki like that however is no fun. I hope some change will be made in the full version.

This fight definitely is for higher levels. In order to beat It, I had to cheese it by goading them up the hill and raining down fire arrows and other exposive on top of them just to kill them. That being said, I think for EA it's just suppose to be a challenge for players to have fun with. Though in the full release, players will theoretically be a higher level before they even deal with that fight given there won't be a level cap of 4 and leveling up is pretty fast.

That fight could also be Larians way to test how we players would handle a harder fight, to get some data for balancing the full game.

In the full game, it has to be a wall that will not allow you to move to the next area too early.

Others have mentioned pretty good reasons as to why they might be made that way.

From a story perspective, it could also be a way to showcase that the Githyanki are formidable opponents and not someone you take lightly... as you do come face to face with a Kith'rak. The fight is quite interesting to me, as it can go completely your way or completely sideways in an instant, but I still consistently manage to overcome it and I like that there are challenging fights in the game which can be beaten with a bit of creativity.

I always have Lae'zel as a Battle Master in my party, who gains 3 special attacks. The strongest I found to be are Disarm, Push and Riposte.

• Disarm Sarth Baretha and the Crossbow Gith, as they do the most damage and are completely useless without weapons
• Prioritize in quickly getting rid of the Greatsword Githyanki, as he will constantly spam Sleep to incapacitate your party
• If you have ranged, make them go up to the bridge via the ladders nearby. So that when any Githyanki teleports up there, you can easily shove them back down
• If you have melee, you shouldn't have any trouble if Lae'zel disarms the two Gith
• If you have pets, place them near the Crossbow Githyanki so he becomes Threatened which will make him miss more

There are so many ways to beat this fight, but these are pretty standard ways to do it.

We talked about this several time in the past.

I don't think "difficulty" is the real problem of this fight (especially in the final game where the player could eventually be able to level up even more before facing it), as much as the way the encounter is framed.
It's one of the first "main objectives" you are given and the player is constantly pressed (hell, let's say even nagged) by a companion to get there as quickly as possible.

Now, the issue is that once the event is triggered, the player isn't even offered the chance to back off, because in the very moment Lae'Zel rushes ahead to meet the patrol you are left with two options: beat the patrol on the spot or have a companion dying off screen if you leave the area.

I can tell you that a lot of people are going to experience a lot of frustration with this stuff when the game releases.
Game journalists in particular are going to lose their freaking mind about how "the game betrayed their trust" or some similar nonsense.

Thank you for the replies, all interesting. I agree that the githyanki should be formidable warriors, and that they block an area (path to moonrise tower?). The goblin camp, also blocking the path to moonrise tower, can be taken out with a 4th level party with a little help from Halsin. Still challenging, but more balanced. I argue however, that the githyanki should not be encountered before 6th level, unless they are somehow made less powerful. Perhaps the number is reduced to 3, which in the full release would mean you (4 5th level characters probably) versus what is in effect 3 7th level charcters then, still tough, but more balanced. And I don't mind tough unbalanced fights along the way with some treasure reward, as long as they can be avoided without missing an important part of the main story. And if for some reason you are one of those who find all the fights too easy there will probably be a level hard, or super hard, for you.

I know there are probably ways to win the fight but: They all exploit weaknesses of the game rather than weaknesses in your opponents. Having Lae'zel disarm 2 giths? She could easily be dead before getting the chance. But let us not discuss the fight, I know some have found a way to beat them and thus find it easy. A debate about whether it is an easy fight or not would be long and fruitless. I don't mind fights where you have to rethink your tactics and be clever, so it is not about that. It is about balancing.

I am also aware that in the full release you could just wait until you are level 6 (exploring the underdark), and then come back and beat the githyanki, but story wise it feels awkward.

I blew the horn I got from the abandoned village and had 3 nice fat allies that made the fight fairly easy.

In the first version of the EA I managed to beat them second try in a relatively fair way. (Shoving them down the bridge, else just using attacks, spells and items).
When the game is released we can be at least lv5 when we get there (another attack for martial classes, lv3 spells, better cantrips just to name a few things)

So I think the fight is OK as it is.
Plus the fight is optional. There are other ways to proceed to the next chapter.

As a completionist I will definitely try to clear the whole map before I continue, no matter if I continue this path or another one.

My most recent time I accidentally talked my way out of the fight by telling Lae'zel to carry on, but I did win once against them legitimately - only to have the save become unplayable from an update. You can also beat them easily with trainers if you really want to do it. But the biggest issue in beating them when I had to do it legitimately is the one guy who keeps using misty step endlessly.

This right here. I think the fight as it is right now is balanced. Once we get lvl 5 I think most people will be able to blow through the fight.

I mean you get told multiple times not to continue doen that path.

Sometimes being stupid and ignoring npcs needs to have cincenquences .

I love that encounter!

You can split the party up and position them up high.

You can solo them with any class really with the right items

But powergaming aside i think they put them into EA specifically as higher levels to get data and feedback regarding how well a large number of players fared against them.

Check out "Sin Tee" on you tube he has beat them solo with each class so far..........

I managed to beat them, but that does change my view in that the fight is unbalanced. First of all I had to restart a few times, because if you don't win initiative you are dead before you can blink. I used 3 potions of speed and several healing potions. I also blew the horn to summon the ogres, but they never showed up.

Key is to incapacitate Baretha first, she will down any character within reach first round with 3 super attacks. So I used hold person, and luckily she failed her saving throw. A cloud of daggers spell ensured she took damage each round, and again I was lucky that the invisible guy was within the cloud and became visible. How I managed to kill the remaining 3 guys was beyond my comprehension. One of them died before concentration on hold person was about to be broken, but I managed to kill Baretha first. Two left, much better odds now but still they gave me trouble and I had to reload a few times before killing the last.

What was wrong with this fight? 1) It took an extreme amount of luck and save/load. 2) I had to use items I could only use once. If other fights were like this I would soon run out of potions to get through the fights. And I honestly find it unsatisfactory to get through my battles using one-time use items rather than hard earned abilities. I understand if the occasional weapon/armor/item shows up that may add to a characters abilities, but that should be a rare thing, magic weapons should not be littered around everywhere. They should be rare and potent imo. It is not fun for me getting through every hard fight throwing bombs I find along the way, or drinking potions. It's not proper RPG. You want to see your character grow and be able to take on harder enemies by using class level abilities. Otherwise it is an adventure game, not RPG.

And to say you are not supposed to bump into this encounter in the first place? It is an important part of the story, Lae'zel seaching for her kin. Plus why have a part of the map you are not supposed to explore? In case you choose the above ground route to Moonrise Tower you have to get through the githyanki. If the choice you are given is a false choice that would make the game less rich I think. There is a choice I believe, because that allows you to play through the game in different ways. Plus we don't know yet if the main story will require that we find the githyanki camp.

Maybe in the full version when we can rise to 5th level it will be easier, but will still require luck and potions to win I am sure.

And this is everything wrong with BG3's combat. The exploits are as obvious as they are abundant. You don't even need items really since they provided that platform you can just Shove them down in various ways from.

The Dragon is the biggest mistake in that encounter though. They couldn't have made an iconic terrifying creature more mundane if they tried. It just sits there like a horse and doesn't burn the party to ashes even if provoked. The dragon rider also acts like an old Bond villain wanting you dead but not actually killing you and leaving instead. I would expect higher quality writing in a modern AAA RPG. The desire to use and show off awesome high level stuff already at low levels is too great here. The dragon rider could have just made a fly-over or left right after killing the Flaming Fist before the party meets them, leaving the party to deal with just the patrol for now.

The dragon could be something terrifying for a low level party to fear and AVOID at all cost, even when they look for a cure in the Creche. Fleeing and diplomacy / deals could very well be an option, to make you feel the progression LATER when you can actually fight one. But instead, it's a horse for now and later (soon probably) you get to fight the dragon. And I'm pretty Larian will provide a "fun" puzzle way for a low level party to kill it. I'd bet on a handy siege weapon nearby or letting a large boulder loose for massive free damage the dragon "won't see coming". Much like the teleporting Spider Queen makes herself vulnerable to amplified fall damage in her own lair. Because why wait for level appropriate challenges, right?

this is a point I'm surprised I never brought up myself. This is a required part of Lae'zel's companion quest. Why should it present such a difficulty bump compared to every other thing at this stage?

The Patrol fight is just another example of how bad the Act 1 storytelling and pacing is.

The entire goblin vs. druid plot feels like it should have been an Act 2 event AFTER you have a better understanding of the tadpole, what it can do and where it comes from. The Patrol fight feels like it probably should have been the climax of Act 1 as it clearly has major points for both Shadowheart and Lae'zel and relevant to events that will happen later. It would probably need a bit of redesign to make it better, but its current placement and implementation just doesn't feel good or interesting.

+1 for the "pacing is really weird"

It's all ok if you don't take LZ, but if you do and you take her seriously then you pretty much beeline straight for this fight right after you go to the grove.

In this case it doesn't matter if the level cap will be higher, because you still won't have hit it because you won't have done all the other stuff that gets you the experience to get it...

The way the game presents everything at the moment is "tadpole bad, do something asap!" and then gives you two options, Halsin or Creche. One of these is what you're "meant" to do, and one just doesn't work.

For what it's worth I think they made Lae'zel's deception check easier. I don't remember her ever succeeding it before, even buffed up, but she got it 2/3 times unbuffed this run through for me. I wasn't sure he she even needed to roll, because the bardic inspiration I gave her went unused and there was no check logged, until she failed one.

I don't really have a problem with the difficulty of the encounter, especially when you consider they're supposed to occupy the same role as the Duergar ambushers in the gnome village. You're forced to autosave before the bridge, if people consistently tpk there you can take the hint and come back later. That's not exactly a great but it's there.

Gith are very arrogant as a race. They typically think of other races then their own as beneath them. A big cheese telling his underlings to 'deal with them' is very much in character. To be awarded a dragon in Githyanki society you have to be one of the elite. This guy is probably so far up his own ass he thinks anyone other then Vlaakith is an unwashed peasant not worth his time.

The reason why they are there is obviously the Nautiloid that crashed nearby. Im also fairly sure that you can talk your way out of the fight and I think having Laezel with you made it easier. Unless they changed that?

I think disguising (or beeing) a Gith yourself also got you additional dialogue and made it easier to avoid the fight but I only heard that part and dident try it yet myself. Complaining about things beeing exploitable or broken though is abit stupid during an EA. Yeah obviously stuff like that will be in the game. Report it to Larian so they can fix it and move on. I dont see the point in complaining about it.

A Gith dragon rider should be arrogant, yes. That doesn't mean he's stupid enough to leave before the fight, especially since they gave all Gith except Lae'zel like 16-18 in every stat including Intelligence and Wisdom, and especially if they know you have the item they seek. He would order his subordinates to kill the party and remain to watch the fight, assess the prowess of his troops and intervene or finish the job should they fail. Not making sure the task is completed is behaving like an idiot when big things are at stake. Exactly like Goldfinger leaving a captured 007 to die from some weird timed laser beam contraption rather than just shooting him.

That's the whole purpose of EA and this forum. Playing EA and silently accepting everything would be stupid and pointless.

Hear hear.

You took a topic about the Gith patrol to complain about broken features. Big differnce between complaining about something and letting Larian know you found a problem/error/bug/exploit/whatver that needs adressing. You are doing the former, not the latter.

What features? Do you even know? Why would you jump on such a sidenote?

Secondly, we are at a liberty of criticizing Larian's design decisions here. Especially since they are changing how an existing ruleset plays. And that is not "complaining". We are not just beta testers who report bugs and exploits while singing praises to Larian regardless of what they do to 5e. You don't need to defend a developer from criticism, they're grown ups.

I agree. Especially on the dragon flying away part, though obviously if there is a chance of a fight, we as players need that Dragon gone or it's beyond impossible.

I haven't done the encounter since patch 6 (so my info might be a bit out of date), but I always took issue with the timing of this encounter, and especially so if you have Laezel in your party at the time.

1. It can happen way too early and too easily. If you have Laezel in your party she practically leads you straight into them. Now, that's ok if there are multiple endings, but in virtually every case in the past, this always lead to a ridiculous fight. One you had little to no hope in if lvl 1-3, other than to know it's coming and cheese it, or come back later and have a chance at it. That to me (if it was to stay as is and isn't just an EA placeholder) is poor design, because the player hasn't a hope in hell of knowing this first time round. This isn't a "loop" game, it's an RPG.

Yes you get a cut scene warning you the Gith are there and without Laezel your team should perhaps see that they're a problem (an Origin character should probably whisper something to that end) and then, ok, you're choice if you engage.

However WITH Laezel in your party, the game, via Laezel, practically drags you into this encounter and it should mean you have a high(er) chance of succeeding through dialogue / have an alternative outcome where you are perhaps captured if it goes badly, or yes choose "to the death" if you're mad enough.

2. With Laezel in tow, there should also only be a very small chance she let's you take the lead on this. I appreciate RPG standards give the lead role to the player's character, but in this regard it doesn't make sense, unless I have a very high Charisma and I "persuade" Laezel that "I got this". To boot should you start but then fail the initial conversation with the Gith, they should want to default to talking only with Laezel (I think in part this does happen, but it should be more forced).

3. Shadowheart and "the item".
Now I appreciate this hunting party are ouf for the item and are technically less interested in helping you with the tadpole issue, but IF you haven't got Shadowheart in the party, or the item on your persons, then deception regarding this item's whereabouts should be easier. Maybe even you let the guards search you, again leading to capture if they don't believe you, because killing you isn't going to help them find it any sooner.

In both instances this could either lead you to the creche willingly or as prisoners. We haven't seen the Creche, so we can't guess as to whether this is even a place we want to be, but Laezel is adamant that we use that method of removing the critter asap, so other than the fact she uses a term that makes me doubt it ends well, its the most in our face option there is at the start of the adventure and more prominant than the Druid's grove.

The problem, to be clear, is not the dragon knight going away. That should be a given if the encounter must have any chance of survival.

The problem is that the framing of the scene is a bit weak and the reason he gives to leave us to his underlings contrasts pretty strongly with how urgent his mission seems to be.
If he decided to dispatch us WITHOUT coming to the conclusion that we have exactly what he's looking for it would make a lot more sense.

He seems to imply that he's not killing us with his own hands (and dragon) because "his mandate binds him" or something along that line, which is a bit vague and not explained very well. Maybe as a knight he has some sort of oath of never killing "children" of his tribe? If that's the case, this could be made a bit more obvious?

P.S. On a side note, I freaking love the actor voicing the dragon knight. His voice, his tone of contempt speaking to Lae'zel, the way he scolds his underlings for fooling around too much without results, etc.
Everything about his delivery is perfect for the role.
Wish I could have the same praise for the model and animation, though.

Yeah agree with you!

Thats kinda exactly what we are saying ...
Talking with kithrak should contain this endings and consequences:

1) He find out about our parasite, but NOT about the box ...
he orders Beretha to kill us and search our bodies just in case, and leave to continue his search for other survivors ...

2) He dont find out about our parasite, nor about the box ... we agree on helping ...
he orders Berethe to return to her duties, leave to continue his search for survivors ...

3) He dont find out about our parasite, nor about the box ... we dont agree on helping ... (You are useless to me scenario.)
he orders Beretha to kill us and search our bodies just in case, and leave to continue his search for survivors ...

4) He finds out about the box (it bugs me a little that in this scenario we cant block out his Detect Thoughts)
he orders Nathanos to burn us to death ... either instant game over, or impossible fight starts ... feel free to make dragon imune to Fire damage so clever exploiters cant surround it with exploding barrels.

I almost feel some of you are vastly overstating the importance of this part of the story so far.
The druids and goblins are little more than an incidental stepping stone along the journey. Chances are that absolutely NO part of this will matter a single bit as soon as we go past MoonSomething Tower and move into Act 2 reaching Baldur's Gate and surrounding area.

Wouldn't an easy solution then be to have a triggered animation when you approach them where the camera zooms in on the patrol and you hear the dragon dude say something to the effect of "ok my underlings, I have urgent stuff to attend to, you just make sure you get that item and leave no one alive" to which he flies away on his dragon on a killer Judas Priest's guitar riff. No jokes aside, they should rewrite this to make it clear you have little to no chance if you are under leveled for the encounter. Just a companion whispering is too easily overlooked IMO, just a new triggered cinematic when you approach them BEFORE IT'S too late would be better.

You're probably right, but that doesn't change the fact that its position in the context of the current story makes no sense. It operates under the assumption you metagame to the extreme and really kills the pacing and immersion.

Agreed.

And it's indicative of the broad trend of poor narrative design choices in the game, such as those around long rests, illithid powers, and other things. If they can't get these simple things right after a vast number of new player experience feedback, how are they going to go with the rest of the game?

I don't know about you, but the fact there is a dragon down there just makes me more curious. After all, I have a githyanki in my party. Only too late do I realize it is not enough to get me out of the encounter without a fight

People obviously have many opinions about this encounter, but most people seem to express, like myself, that something is off. Now how do we reach the devs about the topic? I don't see any devs getting involved in this forum. I hope they read some of it though

This is a little off topic but I think you're right and that really bugs me. It feels as though once we leave this area it's not going to matter at all. We are given no reason to care about the area or invest in it emotionally. Everything about the area that we could potentially care about is LEAVING the place. The place I don't even think has a name even. This feels narratively like it should be the starter area, the place where we learn about the setting, start getting hints at the main plot before we get the big narrative jump into act 2. But we already know that the tadpole is the big thing, a sword of Damoclese that's hanging over our head even though mechanically and to a certain degree storywise it's actually not. We're given no insight into the wider setting that would help get our feet under us, we get little opportunity to form bonds outside of our party, who have few to no bonds between each other. The whole story just feels off to me in a way that I don't think I've ever felt from an RPG narrative.

What do you guys suggest Larian does about the situation then? The Gith having dragon riders is already established. If the dragon would join in on the fight its just an automatic game over and the Dragon-rider beeing a cocky a-hole and letting his underlings handle it like a bond villain is also not the way you guys want the encounter to go.

So what would the solution exactly be then?

We could see the dragon in the initial cutscene, but have it and Kithrak fly off before we arrive. A subordinate (Beretha) would be the one we talk to.
Or partway through the conversation, before Kithrak knows exactly how important we are, he gets a message (telepathy? magic? another dragon rider?) that something requires his urgent attention so he leaves.

Or:

Right now, it's personal. Laezel wants to take off his head with his own silver sword. Any potential "solutions" should ideally maintain that level of anger. Having him fly off before the characters arrive would deflate his role.

I tend to agree that his actions seem odd.

First, I don't know why he jumps to the conclusion that the party has the weapon. "You were on the ship! You must have the weapon." --um, there were a lot of folks on the ship who don't have the weapon, right?--

Second, why would he fly away instead of immediately taking the weapon? I don't think this question is so easily answered, though. Maybe the weapon is dangerous? Maybe he's trying to get away from it and sacrificing Baretha.

There's just so much we don't know, so it's difficult to say this is right or that is wrong. I'm cautious when it comes to jumping to conclusions and assuming I'm smarter than everyone making the game.

*

I'm guessing the weapon is sentient, certainly. I'm also guessing it's the sentience of the weapon that altered the typical nature of the tadpole. In other words, it's why the characters are not like the other true souls.

Furthermore, I'm guessing that the sentience within the artifact is actually the dream person we're seeing, as opposed to a manifestation of the tadpole itself.

Hmm I havent done that encounter in a while. Last patch I couldnt play because of a bug.

I dont recall him automaticly knowing about the weapon, is that new?

He doesnt know you have it if you dont tell him

He assumes it, I don't think he knows definitively that we have it, but he seems sure that the people from the ship they're looking for do have it. I think even if he reads your mind he only knows we were on the ship, but I haven't done that scene after the artifact bridge scene.

Maybe we're all jumping the gun here, and Voss is a double-agent doing what he can to keep the weapon out of Vlaakith's hands...or maybe it'll be retconned that way later.

Lae'zel makes a lot out of following protocol and the Kithrak breaking it, but it's difficult not to see her as deluding herself there, I wonder.

This is not correct.

If you let Laezel speak, for instance, and you encourage her to tell the truth:

He says something along the lines of, "Wait, you were on the ship. That means you have the weapon."

To which, Laezel responds with something like, "Stand down, Knight. I do not have that which you seek."

These are not exact quotes, just off the top of my head.

OK, for variety, my barbarian spoke up...chose a bold answer...Drow said something like..." Finally a wolf among the sheep"...I saved against having my mind read...made another save to read his mind...He was thinking to let me live, pretty sure all I had to do is say Yes Sir, I will help you find the artifact. Paraphrase...cuz I chose another path...ATTACK!!!! RAWWWWRRR!!!...IMA TYRANNOSAURUSES REX (Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines reference).

- Long live Malkavian Humor

He is a soldier after all ... they tend to have, lets say "focused" vision.
Someone from the ship have the weapon > you were on the ship > there is chance you have the weapon > you must be killed and searched.
This is just how they work.

That seems odd ...
Even if that weapon would be so dangerous, he would most likely just fly to save distance and watch us ... i mean he WANTS to get it after all, why go through all those troubles just to let it go?

Nah, this is most likely pure 90' movie misstake where bad guy have exactly what he want in the grasp, but leave hero with his minions bcs "fighting them personaly is beneath him".

Interesting asumption ...
But then why would it give us "parting gift" that quite certainly seems to be linked to Illithids?
(I mean, look at that animations ... they may not be litteraly what happened there, but still send a message about origin of that powers.)

---

There was a scene in the past (now removed) when Kithrak said to Lae'zel that whole purifying protocol is a lie told to young Githyanki so they return after being infected, and are killed before they turn.
I believe his exact words were: "Oh Lae'zel, why the truth must be so bitter ... there is no cure, only in death infected are puryfied ... Beretha, kill her, make it swift and clean."

We also know that Vlaakith is treacherous ... insert insult here ... and is killing her own knights, once they get enough power to be danger for her ruleship. Its not so hard for me to imagine that Kithrak was actualy perfectly loayal .. and Lae'zel just naive.

---

Yeah, but she is still infected ... even tho she dont have weapon, it kinda makes sense that he still wants her executed. :-/

---

I dont remember that one. O_o
Can you remind me?

It's difficult to judge about the story elements without knowing the background and what is to come. Maybe there is a reason for Kithraks behavior, maybe not.

I don't have a problem with meeting the Giths early. In a relatively open world, that's a danger you have to deal with. You know that they are dangerous and should be avoided as much as possible, at least that's what I did. I never trusted Lae'zel in her uncritical admiration to her kin, judging from her behavior and what she tells. Is there a use of being released from the tadpole while being killed?

I fought the Giths once, from the dialog (fight preparation with pre-knowledge in mind for me is absolutely out of order), when I used a mod to open up the level cap. As I saw that they were level 5 I did it with my party at level 5, but using only level 4 abilities (so, tier 2 spells). I won, with difficulties and perhaps luck. The higher hp alone helped, with the use of tier 3 spells it would have been an almost easy fight. So in release they should be manageable at level 5.

RAWWWWRRR!!!...IMA TYRANNOSAURUSES REX (Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines reference).

I dont remember that one. O_o
Can you remind me?

Answer: You have to be a Malkavian.

After the museum you get an option to tell La'Croix..."But I had fun, there were dinosaurs"

Later on the joke is carried further with the line above (more or less).

...I played Malkavian first and loved it!...like completely spoiled for every other play-through.

Interesting ...
I will check, next time. Thank you!