Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Would level 5 exist during the scope of CH ONE once out of EA?

For example?

That is intended tho ...
Take it some classes are lame only on levl 1 ... but some others keep at it until level 3.

To make level 5 you "should" get double as much xp as you get through levels 1-4 together.
To make level 6 you again should get "almost" double as much as for every previous levels ... and so on.

It will slow down noticeably.
Just those first few is so incredibly fast.

I know ... i count myself between them.
But it dont boost you "several" levels ... just aproximately half way to level 3.

Its a jump, true ... but not as hard.

That doesn't make level capping the solution and gear can only do so much to sway the balance of any given encounter. I agree that a lvl 4 team with all the best gear you can possibly get in that act is going fair marginally better a level 4 team that just has some decent gear. A level 6 team with some of the nice gear, but not all is going to rofl stomp a lvl 4 team no matter what gear they picked up. MOST of your ability to handle an encounter comes down to what abilities you have at your disposal and a little creativity as to how you approach it.

So let me say this in another way... IF they do level cap us per act and act 1 is lvl capped at level 4 you are going to have a few types of players

1) The veteran who has played through EA and played all the classes and knows all the side quests and has some idea where all the BEST gear is (I assume that by the time we get out of EA some of the gear you can find currently and/or are reward for doing certain quests will change/ disappear). We've hit lvl 4... we know we aren't going to get any more levels till we hit the next act... what the majority is going to do after hitting cap is only go do the quests/ explore the areas that give them that gear. No need to do the quests that don't yield useful gear... unless you are super greedy and want all the gold :P... I for one will probably skip some of the side quests that don't yield decent gear if they cap us at level four because why do a quest that yields useless gear and no XP (especially if it isn't super relevant to the over arching story)?

2) The new players who will after hitting level cap and realizing that is the case will attempt to just move on to the next act (and only go exploring for new gear because they are having no luck against Nere for example), because even though this isn't an MMO the mind set that MMOs have given lots of players is once you out level an area you move on to the next one.

3) New players who quit before they ever make it out of act one because some of the fights are just not doable at lvl 4 unless you do them a certain way (Example:

4) New players who use guides found online to help them through said difficult fights and locate all the best gear and spoiling the fun of exploring and do figuring out how to get past the encounter.

5) New players that are indeed completionists and do more exploring to try and find everything to spite the level cap.

Right now I am only talking about act 1 of course, because once we hit act 2 all players will be on fairly equal footing as far as experience and knowing where to go.

I guess what I am getting at is couple of things 1) Don't level cap and punish people who explore 2) if you ARE going to level cap capping at 4 is bad spot to do it for act 1 as no amount of gear can make up for what a level or two can do for you

Level capping is not achieving balance its a hinderance and a deterrent. Honestly if I was a new player capped at lvl 4 I would probably give up on trying to fight Nere (in fact I had given up on that fight until I ran across said spoiler). I would instead take one of the other paths and/ or just move on with out dealing with that quest (which may or may not come back to bite you in the ass in a later act).

I get that Larian probably doesn't want us out pacing the content thus making things too easy, but capping us at a level that is easily achieved before you even get half way through the first Act then ramming us in to nearly impossible fights is NOT the way to go.

Honestly, I wouldn't think much of it at this point. Larian will be only able to balance XP gain throughout the chapters once they have all content in them. At this point I very much appreciate breezing to level 4 at such pace, and it allows me to see new stuff in the game without having to slog through tenths of hours of content.

Yup ...
And if they dont (no matter what level it will be really)

There will be different few types of players:
- Those who will follow the main quest line ... they end up with level 6 (lets say) at the end of Act 1 with some gear.
- Those who will follow the main quest line and occasinaly do some related side quest ... they end up with level 6-7 with decent gear.
- Those wtho will completionist everything ... and they can end up easily with level 8 or 9 with best gear possible.

Now how would you like to make an encounter for all of them?

Remember, as you level up you face stronger enemies that give you more exp. So even though "to make level 5 you should get double as much xp as you get through levels 1-4 together," it doesn't actually take twice as long. A CR 3 Creature is 700 XP, a CR 4 Creature is 1,100 XP, and a CR 5 Creature is 1,800 XP, so you're almost getting ~1.6x the exp per fight as you level up.

The really low levels should be relatively quick, sure, but at least levels 3->4 should still take a comparable time as higher levels. Especially since many classes get so many abilities at level 3 - subclasses, level 2 spells, etc - so spending more time at level 3 wouldn't be bad.

Well most crpgs I've played seem to approach the issue from the opposite end, worrying that the players will be too weak for a given area. They manage by placing stronger enemies at points where the difficulty ramps up, using them to essentially serve as walls so that if the player can't beat them or can, but only barely, that's a signal for them to back off and try somewhere else first. I've honestly never encountered a game that outright caps levels by area so I don't really know how to best articulate what has been, in my experience, the norm, since it's never been an issue or something I've had to think about.

Encounters:

1. 3 Imps = 600 XP divided by 2 (you and Lae'zel) = 300 XP. Level up! Oh wait! We're using lame baby Imps that aren't real Imps with real Imp abilities and Resistance. OK. So let's cut that in a 3rd. 100 XP each character? Party of 4 would be 75 each. Party of 6 = 50 each.
2. Repeat on deck. Optional fight. 3 More imps. 50-100 XP. Wow! I'm almost at Level up time depending on party size.
3. Intellect Devourer and Thralls. Optional fight. OK. Severely nerfed devourer. Normally they'd give 450 XP. Let's really nerf that because dang that's a lot and it's a baby Intellect Devourer without Resistance, Devour Intellect, Full Health or Body Thief or MultiAttack. So, let's say 100 XP split between 2. 50 more + Thralls... maybe 75 XP. So, I could be REALLY close to Level 2 already just from 1 necessary fight and 2 optionals.

Not exactly slow leveling up, if they gave more appropriate XP.

4. Second Intellect Devourer. Optional fight. Another 50 each character? Yeah. Now they'd level up if only MC and Lae'zel. Party of 4 + Lae'zel might be close to level up but not quite there.
5. Helm. Yeah. 2 Imps and a Hellsboar + another 2 Imps and a Hellsboar + maybe killing Zalk... and dang if you're really good you could kill 2 cambions also? Definite Level 2 by this point. 4 Imps = 800 XP. But, again, we're dealing with severely nerfed Imps, so let's say a 3rd XP. I'll round to 270 total for the party. Party of 2 would be roughly 133 XP, party of 4 is 67 XP (roughly), and party of 6 is 45. That's just the imps. Add 2 Hellsboars and maybe add an additional 30 XP to the total to make it an even 300... and that's being kinda nerfed XP-wise. I won't even add in Zalk or the cambions.

Yeah. I'd say in all fairness, after everything you go through, whether you are a party of 2, 4 or 6, or anything in between, if XP was done even remotely well, you'd be level 2 easily by the time you get off the Nautiloid.

Which!!! would make fighting 3 actual Intellect Devourers do-able if they went with a party of 6 as a standard and allowed you to make 4 customs right at the beginning. Then you could do party of 4 customs + Shadowheart against 3 actual devourers with real stats. That would be doable if all 5 party members were at level 2 by that point.

But, regardless, let's say they don't make them real devourers and keep them baby mode devourers. Let's say they also base it on a party of 2, just you and SH. That's still an easier first encounter after the prologue at Level 2, which could easily be achieved by that point.

But then, don't hand out XP like candy, like others have said. Next XP dished out should be if you fight the 3 fishermen, or you kill Astarion. XP should be low because they aren't very difficult encounters. Maybe 50 total for the entire party for the fishermen as an entire encounter. So, party of 2 = 25 XP each. Party of 4 = 13 and party of 6 = 9 XP. Now you ain't leveling up super fast regardless of party size because XP is being divided out amongst party members. Thus, instead of needing a cap, you are gaining XP based on party size. The smaller the party, the more XP you get. However, the challenges are going to be harder if you are actually succeeding with a smaller party size.

Gimblebock and Mari and Barton and all the mercenaries? Assuming something similar to Bandit Stats, 25 XP per Bandit for the entire party. Maybe 450 for Gimble, Mari and Barton, provided they actually made them tougher and not just one of the crew. If just nerfed, like they are currently, they should all dish out 25 XP per person you take out. Gimble, Mari, Barton would be 1350 XP altogether if not nerfed for the entire party. Their minions: 2 outside, 1 at the door, and 3 others, that's a total of 6. So, if not nerfed, that's a total of only 150 XP for all mercs besides the 3 leaders. Keep the leaders nerfed as they are now, and that'd only be another 75 XP, for a total of 225 XP for killing all mercs at the Dank Crypt. 225 divided by 2 is 113 each, divided by 4 is 57, and divided by 6 is 38. Again, not a whole lot.

So you get to Level 2 by the end of prologue and would be at level 2 through Dank Crypt at least (unless you did kill Zalk and got tons of experience for that and were at Level 3 by the time of the Dank Crypt. Either way, gaining baby experience through to the grove is not going to really level you up to level 4 at this point).

Goblins = 50 XP per goblin for the whole party. However, one thing to also keep in mind is that as a DM, I would not award full 50 XP per goblin on the battlefield if I also have a ton of NPC's helping the players beat them. So, even if at the grove fight you consider all goblins and the bugbear and the worg for XP, you shouldn't award more than 700 XP-ish for the entire party to divide up - but as I said, I'd even reduce that severely since there is a lot of help taking down a goblin captain and a single crew of 4 goblins + 1 bugbear and 1 worg. I'd probably only award a third of that - half at most. So maybe 300 or 350 for the entire encounter at most. Divide that by 2 = 150-ish for party of 2, 75 per character for party of 4, and 50 XP per for party of 6.

Level 1 is 0 XP to 299
Level 2 is 300 XP to 899
Level 3 is 900 XP to 2699
Level 4 is 2700 XP to 6499
Level 5 is 6500 XP to a whopping 13,999
Level 6 is 14,000 XP to an even more whopping 22,999

As you can see, depending on how they award XP, and party size, and the enemies you are really up against, they could easily control how fast or slow you level up throughout the entire EA, making it so that even if you do the entire EA, you'd only be roughly Level 5 or 6 at most. It just depends on how they handle it.

And if you didn't do the entire EA, and you went for the jugular, if you enter an area that's harder than you should be travelling through, that's on YOU. That's how open worlds work. You might be able to skip to the Underdark, but you should know that it's a VERY dangerous place, and you might actually not want to skip to it until you are at least Level 5 or 6.

Either way, if done right, a cap isn't necessary. The amount of XP it takes to get to the next level at higher levels caps you enough.

Even if they change NO XP reward values in the game, as they currently have it, you'd be naturally capped during EA at level 5, possibly only getting to level 6, if you did EVERYTHING in EA - and that's a pretty big IF to get to level 6 by the end. There's your cap. Don't severely limit players by capping them at a certain level that they've worked hard to earn. That's BAD DMing. Real bad. My players would be furious if I did that.

Bah! But here I am again wasting my time on this. They're not likely going to listen to me, so what's the point? Everything they're doing in this game is extreme, so they're not likely going to chill now, are they? They'll level you up super fast to Level 4 and then cap you, making you go through the entire Underdark/Cursed Land, Grymforge and Moonrise Towers before allowing you to level up again? And then what? Jump you to 6 right away?

Yeah. Makes no sense. None at all. I'm sorry. Capping at 4 during EA makes sense because you may not have ALL the versatile elements ready for the game yet. You may have to work more on spells like Fireball and Lightning Bolt and Fly and such. So, capping at 4 during EA to keep things more chill and manageable until you're ready to uncap is smart. If they cap you at Level 4 AFTER EA, and you can't be higher than 4 during the remainder of the EA, that's REALLY bad. Not just a little. REALLY REALLY bad.

Dang! And there I go again. Gotta give this up like a bad habit. You really know how to suck me back in Ragnarok. 😠

How about adding random encounters that occur more frequently and get more difficult the higher level you are, and at the same time give LESS XP?

If you want to rush through and are able to beat a higher level encounter due to your skill as a player, then great, go for it.

If you are at the "appropriate level" for a certain encounter but can't seem to beat it because you're not as skilled, then you can either go around the encounter, do side quests and gain some gear / level before moving forward, etc.

If you are the completionist that wants to see every single thing before moving on, you can try, but you will have more and more ambushes during camp or while travelling that don't net anything useful and only a little XP. This might dissuade people from doing this and ruining the remainder of their game because they're too high of a level for meaningful encounters and at the same time encourage them to play through a different path on a 2nd or 3rd run through.

Ideally you'll work your way through the story while roleplaying your characters, and the story will be relatively balanced with what your level is at that point.

I just hope we end up with an actual roleplaying game when BG3 is done and not some "hodge podge statistical make the least amount of people unhappy as possible" pile of garbage. Larian needs to build their piece of roleplaying game art and let people enjoy it for what it is. Nitpicking every little thing that is subjectively good or bad can just ruin something like this.

In Larian's defence, all this is conjecture and assumption based mainly on the fact they used a cap in a past game, and a vague, semi-jokey statement made a long while ago. I think it's premature to assume this level cap thing is even something they're planning. This thread is the first time I've even encountered the idea on the forums.

Good point

Thank-you!

Just got home from work, and was going to ask why this thread was still going so hot and heavy. The only reason why there is a level 4 cap is that they haven't designed level 5 yet....moders have.

If they did put a cap then a mod could fix that, but its better they address the issue and make the encounters customizable...say letting the player choose how many levels higher each 'monster' is above the norm (up to x levels higher). Its better to be too hard than too soft for me. Hard encounters can usually be overcome by separating the enemies and picking them off.

I personal like 4 man parties better than 6 (2 support 2 DPS) but 6 is fine by me...I'll still play with 4. I think the decision to only take 4 past a certain point is a logistical decision. Just save the game at that point and copy your saves from each timeline / universe / reality you choose into different folders.

Uh, I would hope after a year and a half that they have lvl 5+ designed for at least SOME of the classes if not I have to question wtf they have been doing all this time and how they expect to release in 2022

So the mod I use let me reach level 6, however the xp scaling is off from the raw...probably to test higher level abilities.

I should only be half way to 5, and have yet to rescue the Druid and deal with the goblins. So far at looks like players should hit level 5 in the Underdark or just before.
Well they did make a lot of work for themselves by not fully understanding how D&D 5e works. Guess they should have played a few table top sessions before they started. Also they wasted time on sex scenes, which not all care about (should have made a DLC if they really had to). It was a huge mistake to think they could make a title like BG3 and not commit to the RAW. Every time they change something no matter how small, there are unforeseen rippling consequences.
They seriously should abandon the idea that its OK to make a "D&D like" BG title. The RAW is tested, it's what is expected, and above all it absolutely works (no guesswork). You don't go from Texas to Canada and stop off in Mexico. They have given us barrels and surfaces...OK. Now fix the fundamental mechanics and don't rely on moders to do it, rather see what they are doing is working.

The modding community is making progress because they have a clear vision of what is expected of an authentic D&D game.

The great news is that the game is a lot of fun with mods that give players what they have been begging for...ie proper feats ect. Melee is awesome...it is sooo nice to be in in a bad spot and make a Polarm Master opportunity attack kill when you need one. My second playthrough is miles ahead of my first. It has been a fun experience.

More great news: I am loving what they have done with patch 7, and overall Larian is doing well considering the learning curb they are experiencing.

This game offers so much more than other games with the level of depth in both the story and characters. I may not like them all, but I am giving them a chance to grow on me.

I love the studio's vision and commitment and have confidence they will make a complete product. The story has yet to be fully flushed out yet.

On that note, be patient and understand that they have a lot of work ahead of them, and rushing will just hurt them. It's the end of a story that truly matters and that can't be hurried.

Balance smalance, level capping is a stupid idea. Quite frankly most of these an counters in this game so far would be considered deadly if it was an actual D&D session. On my most recent play through I hit the level cap before going to the goblin camp, much less the gnolls, githyanki, etc.... Would still be p!aging that run though but the zhent hideout caused a glitch where I couldn't rest with out a fight at camp and couldn't go back to the grove to sell stuff.... I am guessing it would be possible to hit 6th maybe 7th level easy before getting out of the underdark. If they really care about "balance" maybe they ought to make sure that classes have all their proper features, which they don't currently....

Yeah ... didnt read it, i dont really care after all.

This is at least interesting claim ...
I cant help the feeling that encounters should work the same no matter if you play them at tabletop, or in pc game ...

Of course, if you start changing rules, stats, or other things ... then more changes you make, the more different the oucome will be ...
But hat is hardly the same encounter then, isnt it?