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When rescuing Halsin, whatever players do with them is players' own decision, but Halsin, on storytelling wise, who is not a shadow druid, shouldn't be the one who would willingly harm those goblin kids in a deadly way. This fight reminds me of the owlbear fight, if Halsin was in players' position fighting those two owlbears, would he decide to kill that owlbear cub? Of which I think not. And since druid are able to talk to an owlbear, while both owlbear and goblin are capable to kill humanoid beings without moral trouble to them, then what's the difference between an owlbear cub and a goblin kid?

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Originally Posted by ioci
shouldn't be the one who would willingly harm those goblin kids in a deadly way
Why not?

Originally Posted by ioci
would he decide to kill that owlbear cub?
Most likely, yes ...
Owlbears are Monstrosities ... meaning Druids often kills them on sight, since the break natural order. smile

Originally Posted by ioci
And since druid are able to talk to an owlbear
Basicaly they are not ...
But Larian decided to break the rule here, to allow us this, bcs they thought its fun option.


I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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Druids are concerned with macro perspectives and large scale balance. A few shitty, sadistic pricks getting in the way of a servant of the natural order is definitely not a loss worth mourning in the grand scheme of things.

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I would even dare to say that its in line with natural order ...
You upset a bear ... a bear will rip your head off. laugh


I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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Besides, they're just goblins.

Though Halsin rarely even gets a chance to kill them, since I usually slay them first like the vermin they are.

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They're just goblins; large vermin essentially. Way can't he kill them?

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I kind of like the idea of ferocious druids. Too often, they seem to be presented as wise and peaceful and gentle as the newest spring flower. I want to see the dirt beneath their nails, the blood stains on their teeth. These are priests of nature, which is a wild and raw thing, full of storms and hunger and tremors that shake the land.

Surely not all druids are hippies flashing peace signs.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Surely not all druids are hippies flashing peace signs.
Well, some druids worship Malar (deity of the hunt, lycanthropes, savagery and bloodlust), Umberlee ("The Bitch Queen", evil goddess of storms and seas) and Talos (deity of storms and destruction).
And the shadow druids, whom Kaga wanted to join, aim to destroy civilization.
So druids are as diverse as nature itself.


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I mean Goblins breed rapidly, Iirc its noted the cnly thing really keeping their population in check is their children have as dangerous lives as their parents.

Plus the ones halsin potentially kills are old enough to torture.

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You know, thinking back, I don't think I've ever seen Halsin kill one of them. They're usually so fast at disengaging and running away, calling for guards.

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Originally Posted by JandK
You know, thinking back, I don't think I've ever seen Halsin kill one of them. They're usually so fast at disengaging and running away, calling for guards.
Iirc he kills them while he escapes if you dont visit before killing all the true souls in the temple

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Originally Posted by ioci
When rescuing Halsin, whatever players do with them is players' own decision, but Halsin, on storytelling wise, who is not a shadow druid, shouldn't be the one who would willingly harm those goblin kids in a deadly way. This fight reminds me of the owlbear fight, if Halsin was in players' position fighting those two owlbears, would he decide to kill that owlbear cub? Of which I think not. And since druid are able to talk to an owlbear, while both owlbear and goblin are capable to kill humanoid beings without moral trouble to them, then what's the difference between an owlbear cub and a goblin kid?


As already mentioned, an Owlbear is a monstrosity created by magic, it's not a natural beast, it's an incredibly aggressive monster that will eat any living creature, and absolutely has the potential to upset a local ecosystem.

A Goblin is also technically, a magically created creature, they were created long ago by Hobgoblins as a serf race. Goblins are also quite aggressive, but normally don't upset the local ecosystem. It's only when Goblins come into contact with settled people that there are problems, but not always, and that's usually when adventurers get involved. In this specific instance the Goblins are being mobilised by a fanatical leadership to attack the grove. Halsin's grove. Perhaps if this were not the case he would be more lenient, but given the situation, he knows that the only way to keep his grove safe is to kill off the leadership, and as many Goblins as possible.

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Let's also not forget that over a hundred years earlier, Halsin fought against the forces of Darkness that threatened the grove. He lost many loved ones during Ketheric's assaults. He went to Moonrise Towers and fought against this evil.

Now a new threat is coming to destroy his home, and he's gotta be pissed. He's been through so much, and to him it's gotta seem like history is repeating itself. Here's this cult threatening everything he holds dear. Yeah. I'd say it's perfectly right for nature's fury to be unleashed.

Besides. I agree with JandK. Druids are often depicted as pacifists almost, or as weak tree huggers. Nice to see a leader of them kicking butt. I like Halsin. Let him be the bad butt he seems to be. I'd actually like to see him tougher

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Halsin hasn’t gone far enough until he goes full goblin slayer

And then EVEN FURTHER BEYOND

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Originally Posted by Piff
Originally Posted by ioci
When rescuing Halsin, whatever players do with them is players' own decision, but Halsin, on storytelling wise, who is not a shadow druid, shouldn't be the one who would willingly harm those goblin kids in a deadly way. This fight reminds me of the owlbear fight, if Halsin was in players' position fighting those two owlbears, would he decide to kill that owlbear cub? Of which I think not. And since druid are able to talk to an owlbear, while both owlbear and goblin are capable to kill humanoid beings without moral trouble to them, then what's the difference between an owlbear cub and a goblin kid?


As already mentioned, an Owlbear is a monstrosity created by magic, it's not a natural beast, it's an incredibly aggressive monster that will eat any living creature, and absolutely has the potential to upset a local ecosystem.

Hmm, there is no united conformation on the origins of the owlbear(in lore, in real life we know Gygax based it on a toy). Dragons and other monsters are also magical creatures but still considered to be parts of nature in Faerûn. So a druid being against its existence just based on that feels wrong.

That said, druids are champions and protectors of natural order, not life only, so if having to kill one to uphold the balance would seem like the necessary thing to do, a druid shouldn't hesitate IF no other options are available. Being true neutral(if we're going with the archaic alignment system) don't mean being passive and even a druid can and will make mistakes in his/her life. You know the saying; the one who pokes a bear rarely lives long enough to tell about it.

Went abit off there but my point was that I agree with Halsin killing the children or potentially an owlbear, just not because of reasons stated by others above.

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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Hmm, there is no united conformation on the origins of the owlbear(in lore, in real life we know Gygax based it on a toy). Dragons and other monsters are also magical creatures but still considered to be parts of nature in Faerûn. So a druid being against its existence just based on that feels wrong.

No, Owlbears are not magical beasts - they are, quite literally, Monstrosities. It's a creature type, with specific meaning and implications.

From the Monster Manual:

Originally Posted by Introduction, Creature Types
Monstrosities are monsters in the strictest sense — frightening creatures that are not ordinary, not truly natural, and almost never benign. Some are the results of magical experimentation gone awry (such as owlbears), and others are the product of terrible curses (including minotaurs and yuan-ti). They defy categorization, and in some sense serve as a catch-all category for creatures that don’t fit into any other type.

They aren't natural or part of any natural order.

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Technically you are correct, in that there is not consensus on the origins of the owlbear, but having read it's entries over multiple editions, you start to get an idea that this is a large destructive non-native predator. And as someone who lives in a country with wildlife that has been horribly affected by the introduction of non-native apex predators, I absolutely advocate for the culling of destructive non-native predators.

From the AD&D Monster Manual, it has no type classification in this book:
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The horrible owlbear is probably the result of genetic experimentation by some insane wizard. These creatures inhabit the tangled forest regions of every temperate clime, as well as subterranean labyrinths. They are ravenous eaters, aggressive hunters, and evil tempered at all times. They attack prey on sight and will fight to the death.

From the 3e Monster Manual, it is classified as a beast in this book:
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Owlbears are extraordinarily vicious predators with a reputation for ferocity, aggression, and sheer ill temper. They tend to attack nearly anything that moves without provocation. Scholars have long debated the exact origins of this creature. The most common theory is that a demented wizard created the first specimen by crossing a giant owl with a bear.

The 3.5 monster manual entry has the same lore text, but it has been reclassified as a magical beast.

From the 4e monster manual, it has been reclassified again as a fey beast:
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Infamous for its bad temper, an owlbear attacks anything it thinks it can kill.
A character knows the following information with a successful Nature check.
DC 15: Owlbears are dangerous predators of the Feywild that made their way to the natural world long ago. They typically lair in forests and shallow caves. They can be active during the day or night, depending on the habits of the available prey. Adults live in mated pairs and hunt in packs, leaving their young in the lair.

And the 5e monster manual, which easily has the largest lore text (I will copy the relevant parts), and has reclassified it as a monstrosity:
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Deadly Ferocity. The owlbear's reputation for ferocity, aggression, stubbornness. and sheer ill temper makes it one of the most feared predators of the wild. There is little, if anything, that a hungry owlbear fears. Even monsters that outmatch an owlbear in size and strength avoid tangling with it, for this creature cares nothing about a foe's superior strength as it attacks without provocation.

Savage Companions. Although they are more intelligent than most animals, owlbears are difficult to tame. However, with enough time, food, and luck, an intelligent creature can train an owlbear to recognize it as a master, making it an unflinching guard or a fast and hardy mount. People of remote frontier settlements have even succeeded at racing owlbears, but spectators bet as often on which owl bear will attack its handler as they do on which will reach the finish line first.
Elven communities encourage owlbears to den beneath their treetop villages, using the beasts as a natural defense during the night. Hobgoblins favor owlbears as war beasts, and hill giants and frost giants sometimes keep owl bears as pets. A starved owlbear might show up in a gladiatorial arena, ruthlessly eviscerating and devouring its foes before a bloodthirsty audience.

Owlbear Origins. Scholars have long debated the origins of the owl bear. The most common theory is that a demented wizard created the first specimen by crossing a giant owl with a bear. However, venerable elves claim to have known these creatures for thousands of years, and some fey insist that owl bears have always existed in the Feywild.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Hmm, there is no united conformation on the origins of the owlbear(in lore, in real life we know Gygax based it on a toy). Dragons and other monsters are also magical creatures but still considered to be parts of nature in Faerûn. So a druid being against its existence just based on that feels wrong.

No, Owlbears are not magical beasts - they are, quite literally, Monstrosities. It's a creature type, with specific meaning and implications.

From the Monster Manual:

Originally Posted by Introduction, Creature Types
Monstrosities are monsters in the strictest sense — frightening creatures that are not ordinary, not truly natural, and almost never benign. Some are the results of magical experimentation gone awry (such as owlbears), and others are the product of terrible curses (including minotaurs and yuan-ti). They defy categorization, and in some sense serve as a catch-all category for creatures that don’t fit into any other type.

They aren't natural or part of any natural order.

"...netherese scouts and outriders destroyed the 3000 owlbears, creatures given existence by the creator races thousand of years ago" (Netheril:Empire of Magic, p. 10)

In the monster manual for 3.5 it was categorized as a magical beast, so that has been retconned since. And also, in the monster manual 5e their origin is debated.

So, I stand partly corrected. but then I guess we have to discuss what can be counted as natural in Forgotten realms since pretty much all there has been created by one thing or another. In a world where gods and other beings literally create things on a whim whenever they feel like it, natural does seem to be a bit loose term smile. And yes, I'm aware that goes for real life as well depending on each one's beliefs.

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Perhaps, if we say they were created in the feywild by one of the creator races, as a magical experiment that didn't go right, then all the lore is true and none if it contradicts ^.^

(Though it's worth remembering that where source book lore contradicts, practice is to give priority to the most recent source book, and where source books contradict novels and story books, it is the source books that have priority. Where video game lore and novel lore contradict, priority is usually given to the novels.)

Last edited by Niara; 22/07/22 08:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by Niara
Perhaps, if we say they were created in the feywild by one of the creator races, as a magical experiment that didn't go right, then all the lore is true and none if it contradicts ^.^

(Though it's worth remembering that where source book lore contradicts, practice is to give priority to the most recent source book, and where source books contradict novels and story books, it is the source books that have priority. Where video game lore and novel lore contradict, priority is usually given to the novels.)

Fine. Or maybe we can ask Wotc and other DnD creators to make up their god damn mind :P

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