Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Do we really need 'faster combat'?

So, this emphasis on the 'faster combat'. Just wanted to hear out some opinions on the matter. I personaly want any combat to last as long as it could, because it is one of the most interesting in-game activities. I want for the enemies to fall back and take cover, set traps and hold positions, especially when they are outnumbered/outleveled. I am not even against scripted branching scenarios in that matter, with rigged initiative order (or we have a surprise condition for that). Combat encounters are scarce, especially when you don't "roleplay" a murder-hobo. Scarcity makes me to want it lasting longer, even more so. The recent addition of the Swarm AI seems to favor all-in brainless attack on sight enemy behavior. What I like, on the other hand, are branching behavior patterns based on HP lvl, or "Enraged" as they are called in the game (owlbear, spider matriarch, etc). I'd like to see more of those for regular enemies, prolonging the combat even more and adding some personality to regular thugs. Brave would rage, cowardly would hold position or run for help, etc.

What do you think?

Generally speaking a turn-based combat doesn't need to be "fast", but it needs to be careful with unnecessary, gratuitous parts that waste time for no additional benefit.

Few examples:
- every animation is fundamentally a "waste of time" but it also adds a lot to the visual appeal of the game, so the ideal compromise here is having animations that look good and are quick to execute, while also being "snappy" in giving back the controls to the player. If your character finishes its attack and then you have to wait an additional second and half just to get back full control and/or switch to someone else, we are going to have a problem. Looking at what's already there, virtuous examples may be the spells that do some "pre-cast" when you are selecting a target (so shortening their overall length/duration on confirmation) while bad examples would be the Berserk ability lasting at least a full second more than necessary or the Dash ability wasting a second to animate a "powering up" that doesn't even make sense or feels good to see. Also not a fan of jumps coming with a wind-up, a loud, ungraceful Hulk stomp and some unnecessary delay in responsiveness after.

- AI needs obviously to "think" its moves as fast as it can, but I doubt any developer needs to be told this. It's a design goal that is most likely a constant concern for them and whatever we'll get in this area will be pretty much the best they can do. Asking "the AI should be faster" is like asking for engines that require less carburant and batteries that last more hours. A "no shit" type of suggestion.

- being prompted to make a decision (i.e. reaction) is not "slow combat" as far as I'm concerned. Every time the game is in "pause" waiting for the player input is perfectly fine in my book. But if confirming or passing that reaction is going to be cumbersome, counter-intuitive and unresponsive, then yeah, we are going to have a problem with unnecessary slowness.

This will be a game with a finite, non-repeatable number of combat scenarios, not one where we'll be constantly interrupted by random fights. Even in a case where these may be added while traveling on the world map (that doesn't really sound like a Larian thing) they will most likely be a limited number of pre-planned one. So in general I have absolutely no concern about how fast I'll breeze through each one of them, but I want it to feel as good as it can when controlling the flow of the action.

I understand that mostly those concerns are about the meat of the game, about quick AI turn calculations and player control. I absolutely agree with your vision of how combat should be mechanicaly. It bothers me that a newborn feature - Swarm AI - which is purely a mechanical improvement, influences the game on the game design level. The combat definitely feels faster with 2 or 3 enemies proceeding with their turns simultaneously, but the quality of their turns drops significantly. Unless I missed something in the game, all those swarm enemies can do is perform a head-on basic attack or dash. Basically a goblin who could use a consumable or throw a bomb a patch before is now a "me smash" dummy

Better AI and more choices (Example: reaction system) are always good so long as they are kept within reason. But I also agree that some encounters can be outrageously long.

I think the whole swarm AI thing is going to help a lot. I only see 'slow combat' being an issue with massive encounters in the game where there are tons of enemies and 'trash mobs' are taking up a significant amount of time.

I don't play crpgs to spend 70% of the time in combat. I enjoy exploring the world, figuring out mysteries, getting cool loot, just general adventuring. If I wanted a combat sim, I'd play XCOM. I'm all for trash encounters being trash.

Can confirm yes/no nor how it compares to previous versions: but yes, it seemed only very basic enemies could join up in "swarms" and those tended to perform basic attacks. I can't tell, though, if those basic enemies were always there, or did Larian swapped some more advanced enemies with those swarmlings.

Perhaps Swarm AI will be developed further to include more possible actions?

There needs to be a balance between speed and player engagement. If everything is automated, that's boring. Yay. It's fast, but I've quit tablet games in minutes because their combat was way too auto. It's not fun if I'm not able to make smart choices and I'm just watching the game play itself.

But it is also frustrating when you're just sitting there waiting for your turn watching NPCs act or even other players. So, yes. It can slow combat down terribly if you don't do something to speed up OTHER characters' turns.

And multiplayer makes it even more essential for fast combat. Have you ever had to wait for an indecisive player? It's like Hell has captured you and put you in an Infernal Machine. This is why Reactions COULD get bad if done with pure prompts.

Imagine you're playing with another person who is a spellcaster. Enemy casts Magic Missile. Prompt for the other player so for you combat is paused. You wait. "Hey. What you doing?"

"Can't decide whether to Shield spell or not.". You urge then to move on, so they say No. It happens again. Enemy melee attacks mage. Pause combat with prompt. You wait. They can't decide whether to Shield spell or not.

Yeah. It could make gameplay very painful.

If your are going to play with someone who's such a pain in the ass, there's very little that will save you from feeling butthurt, reactions or not.


In before "But what if he's going to the bathroom at every round?".

This would happen for most reaction systems, not just prompts. Aside from the fact that such a player would likely take much longer on their base turn than they'd spend on any reaction...

Current auto-reaction system: "I can't decide on which reactions I should toggle on/off this round."
Preset (target selection) system: "I can't decide which enemies to target for this round for reaction A. And reaction B. And maybe reaction C"
Overhauled reaction system: "I can't decide which (p)reaction I want to enact this turn."
Preset (out of combat) system: "Hold up guys, I need to fiddle with my conditions for enacting counterspell, AoO, etc. Don't enter dialogue/combat/explore without me."

Lol. So true.

Weird... I read all these comments about the AI, reactions, etc. and I get it, but...

I spend 90% of my time in combat scrolling around the battlefield and reorienting the camera trying to figure out where everyone is located and what lines-of-sight are available and/or how to get to higher ground. If I could zoom out further combat would be 10x faster for me.

Not necessarily fast combat, uninterrupted combat. A ticking AI, or dozens of individually and sequentially moving minions, or dozens of spawning surfaces and damage effects interrupt the flow of gameplay by putting you in the backseat of the most boring ride in the game, waiting to play/interact.

In one roundbased RPG I played 20 years ago there was "auto combat", i.e. the AI took over both sides and you could even watch. And you could short up this much more with just "present the result". I thought that was awesome! I like it very much.

Anything shortening combat, I'd welcome! Or at least a "story" mode where the battles are so simple that you win them quickly. I love the story modus in D:OS2. Just talk, look in each chest, design you own pizza or bow. See what people have in their pockets. Fights that are easy to win.

Like Boblawblah, I also don't like crpgs whre I had to spend 70% of the game time in combat. I enjoy also exploring the world, figuring out mysteries, getting cool loot, just general adventuring.

Maybe give us a cheat like "press K" to kill all enemies? Maybe then the game will finish faster if the developers/testers don't have to spend so much time fighting.

I dont think faster combat necesarily mean shorter combat...
I mean love encounters as well ... but truth be told there isnt much to do in between your turns, so making that part as fast as possible is certainly welcomed (swarm ai makes tremendous job in that matter) ... alternative would be to give us something to do, like u know, proper reactions.

Anyway i would see faster combat as pure benefit, the fastwr enemies will decide their turn the faster they will execute their actions ... the sooner i get back to obliterating them. :3

Agreed

Does anyone else feel like combat is TOO fast now? I just did the battle at the gate outside the Grove and I got whiplash trying to follow what was happening. It certainly made it feel more chaotic like a real battle would be, but I had trouble telling who was attacking who, what spells they were using, etc. I definitely didn't used to have that problem but I haven't played the last two patches. I wouldn't mind combat being just a little but slower or at the least the camera could be a little more dynamic to better capture what's happening.

I don't think combat is too fast, but camera does a poor job of showing what is happening. They need to work on that.

Turn-based combat doesn't need to be fast, but it still should flow well and especially be free of time-wasting annoyances.

Example of the latter: HEX, which is a very frequently cast spell. Streamlining the debuff compartment would save a little time every round...and a whole lot of annoyance.

+1 Well said.

Another example of speeding up combat in a good way.

In Solasta, Cleric of Mischief can add damage to a single hit per short rest via her Channel Divinity ability. EVERY time she hits, the game pops up a window asking me to apply the extra damage. The same is true for paladin smite.

BG3 cuts out this kind of thing, speeding up combat. Instead of asking me every time I hit whether I want to apply my Battlemaster maneuvers, I pick ahead of time whether I want to use a maneuver and if I hit the damage is auto-used because I chose beforehand to use it. If I miss, the maneuver is refunded back to me. This is a much better approach to the mechanics which speeds up combat and the flow while accomplishing the same thing as the pop-up. Having that pop-up every time the cleric hits severely cuts into the flow of combat and slows it down unnecessarily.