It is extremely annoying to go into a fight that my entire party knows is going to happen, having a plan to initiate it, only for 3/4 characters to be "surprised" and miss a full turn, while enemies get a full free round never mind that my entire party passed their stealth rolls. On the whole, rolling initiative has been chaotic and unreliable, sometimes I get away with murder when I shouldn't, sometimes my party gets slaughtered when they shouldn't.
Sure, in a game of D&D it is possible for a party to be surprised by one player's actions, but more often than not we all know what we want to do as soon as combat goes loud. Having a system for players being ready vs. not ready might be ideal, but I think it would be better to err on the side of party members always being ready for combats that the party initiates. If my whole party sneaks up planning to attack an enemy and my rogue takes a shot, none of us should be surprised that the enemies respond, and we should all get a chance to take a shot or cast a spell as a readied action.
Readying an action is one of the more complex and dynamic mechanics of D&D, so a video game won't be able to handle everything a DM can, it might manage a good chunk of common triggers for a readied action to go off but it won't be perfect, but at the very least we should be able to get the start of combat.
A game that does this very well is XCOM: Chimera Squad, where all combats start with "breach mode", they add some special abilities and conditions that don't really fit D&D, but the main mechanic could certainly be adapted. In XCOM, when the squad starts the combat, enemies can be surprised, alert, or aggressive. Surprised enemies don't take any actions during the ambush, alert enemies take non-offensive actions, while aggressive enemies can use take shots. You could ignore the whole "alert" condition if you want, or use it to cast buff spells, take the dodge action, move to cover and things like that. Surprised enemies can have the surprised condition as expected, while aggressive enemies take actions as normal, moving and making attacks or casting spells including damaging spells. During this ambush round the party members get to take full turns.
Codifying the enemy response would let encounters play out in a way that is believable and balanceable. For example if we ambush a camp with a drunken guard and sleeping enemies, they are more likely to be caught by surprise, while if we are spotted by the enemy and they simply haven't decided whether to shoot us yet when we attack, they are much more likely to be aggressive.
Most of my frustrations with the game as it stands come from the unreliability of the beginning of combat, and it is definitely something that could be fixed.
Sure, in a game of D&D it is possible for a party to be surprised by one player's actions, but more often than not we all know what we want to do as soon as combat goes loud. Having a system for players being ready vs. not ready might be ideal, but I think it would be better to err on the side of party members always being ready for combats that the party initiates. If my whole party sneaks up planning to attack an enemy and my rogue takes a shot, none of us should be surprised that the enemies respond, and we should all get a chance to take a shot or cast a spell as a readied action.
I don't want to derail the thread, as the issue I want to discuss has been thoroughly argued about in a thread that was recently closed, but it sounds to me like another shortcoming of stealth and how it transitions into encounters. If every nearby companions were included in the combat encounter rather then being added on one by one basis that wouldn't happen - just roll initiative for everyone, stealthed or not, and the problem is solved.
One a side note lack of readied actions has been puzzling - especially as Larian's seem to be very concerned about not allowing players to "waste" any part of action economy it seems like an odd ommision. It's a mechanic that should work really well in cRPG.
I would like that ... + Include aplication of this "ambush mode" if your last dialogue option picked was something like "attack first" ...
Seems really weird, if you pick to "attack before your enemy gets a chance" but then you have lower initiative and go last.
Agreed. Maybe some of the time the NPCs are ready for it, and having the narrator say "they see you move to your weapon and draw their own" or something along those lines.
+1 as well, I totally agree that the current system as implemented needs this. But... it also should apply to the enemy as well if they surprise our party.
I don't want to derail the thread, as the issue I want to discuss has been thoroughly argued about in a thread that was recently closed, but it sounds to me like another shortcoming of stealth and how it transitions into encounters. If every nearby companions were included in the combat encounter rather then being added on one by one basis that wouldn't happen - just roll initiative for everyone, stealthed or not, and the problem is solved.
One a side note lack of readied actions has been puzzling - especially as Larian's seem to be very concerned about not allowing players to "waste" any part of action economy it seems like an odd ommision. It's a mechanic that should work really well in cRPG.
This is the answer. If any player characters are within, say 24 m (MAYBE up to 30 at most - maybe not if that would be too close to other encounters) of any character participating in combat once combat starts, they should be automatically entered into initiative and join the combat, even if they're in stealth. It doesn't make sense at all to arrange an ambush and then be punished for it.
Last edited by Stabbey; 25/09/2201:22 PM. Reason: Upped the combat range to 24-30
Before forcing all our characters into combat just because one gets pulled into initiative, they need to allow us to queue or ready actions, or have the entire world pause when we pause the game. Otherwise, for single player games, ambushing is effectively ruined. There is no way to move everyone at the same time, like I am assuming can be done in multiplayer.
To me, an effective ambush means everyone attacks at the same time, after which everyone should then properly be added to the initiative order. I would rather take the risk of having one character getting seen (this is where stealth rolls should play a part) and pulled into combat than not be able to set up anything properly. At least with the current system, we can switch to the characters not in combat so they can get their attacks off before joining, as was intended with the ambush plan. It is certainly not ideal but at least it does not kill off a particular playstyle.
Before forcing all our characters into combat just because one gets pulled into initiative, they need to allow us to queue or ready actions, or have the entire world pause when we pause the game. Otherwise, for single player games, ambushing is effectively ruined. There is no way to move everyone at the same time, like I am assuming can be done in multiplayer.
To me, an effective ambush means everyone attacks at the same time, after which everyone should then properly be added to the initiative order. I would rather take the risk of having one character getting seen (this is where stealth rolls should play a part) and pulled into combat than not be able to set up anything properly. At least with the current system, we can switch to the characters not in combat so they can get their attacks off before joining, as was intended with the ambush plan. It is certainly not ideal but at least it does not kill off a particular playstyle.
By the great turnips god! I think I am in love! +1000 for your avatar pic Zarna Wish I could make a character looking like that in BG3.
It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
Sorry but I have to launch in on that last exchange, because it speaks to my BG heart of hearts. The portrait there is at what like 120x120 maybe 10kb at most? The space we're given for a headshot in game could easily accommodate such a portrait. In BG3 you would never be able to achieve that look though, because there is no way to have a character glancing back over their shoulder in their headshot, or folding their arms like Turnipsome's Gnome. Instead we get the most uninteresting and least emotive of all possible views, the eyes straight forward deadpan mugshot for everyone? Alas, they clearly did not understand what made BG1 so great - the custom portrait! 3d avatars shouldn't preclude the concept of a portrait. It's easy to see from the various screenshots which people have posted of their characters that it's possible to cap a serviceable portrait in-game, so why shouldn't we be able to do that as part of character creation? We should, is what I'm saying. BG3 should be the game that finally makes the 3D portrait suite an actual thing. I mean we've only been patiently waiting for like 20 years now lol.
On the main subject, I agree. I also think they've conflated "No Real-Time with Pause" to mean "No Pause at all" and the game suffers for it quite a bit. I feel like I'm being constantly hamstrung as a Single Player, in order to accommodate a Multi-Player or Co-Op game mode that I'll never use. No good method for ambushing is one way that it manifests, but it's all over the place, everywhere - from the most basic controls to the flow of game time generally. Very frustrating. It makes their TB game feel somehow even more Real Time than RTWP, since the player is constantly battling with the flow of game time like this.
If players can ambush properly in MP without any form of pause that's cool I guess, but if it means the only way to ambush properly is in Co-Op that's pretty lame. The party movement megathread has gone largely unanswered, but this was noted more than a few times as a major downside of only being able to control one character at a time before "combat" proper has been initiated. I suppose I'd be game for an ambush mode, or special ambush round or gamephase if that's what it takes, but I think the real issue is this ongoing tension between cooperative play and single player full-party control gameplay. To me BG has always been the latter, and I think that should be prioritized, but everything about the BG3 game seems to suggest that the former is more their goal, which is kinda off putting for me.
To me, an effective ambush means everyone attacks at the same time, after which everyone should then properly be added to the initiative order.
It can be handled, if one feels it is needed - Solasta has a surprise round - enemies who were ambushed don’t get to act on their first round (works well, there, might be too much for BG3 as characters can move rather far in one turn). There could also be a free half-turn for ambushes - like in Pathfinder games. Possibilities are many.
If players can ambush properly in MP without any form of pause that's cool I guess, but if it means the only way to ambush properly is in Co-Op that's pretty lame.
I am assuming in multiplayer that the party has proper communication and they can all move into position and attack at the same time. If they change the current system to what some people are wanting, then it effectively removes the most logical and useful stealth tactic from single player. I understand their reasons for wanting the change, but it will make things extremely aggravating and miserable for me if 3 of my 4 stealthy characters are always assumed to be revealing their positions like idiots.
Originally Posted by Wormerine
[ It can be handled, if one feels it is needed - Solasta has a surprise round - enemies who were ambushed don’t get to act on their first round (works well, there, might be too much for BG3 as characters can move rather far in one turn). There could also be a free half-turn for ambushes - like in Pathfinder games. Possibilities are many.
It is definitely needed. Never played Solasta, but if this system would give the entire party time to act in the surprise round, then this sounds like a great idea. This could even be tied into a readied/queued action system if people are bothered by having a full round to have both movement and attacking.
If players can ambush properly in MP without any form of pause that's cool I guess, but if it means the only way to ambush properly is in Co-Op that's pretty lame.
I am assuming in multiplayer that the party has proper communication and they can all move into position and attack at the same time. If they change the current system to what some people are wanting, then it effectively removes the most logical and useful stealth tactic from single player. I understand their reasons for wanting the change, but it will make things extremely aggravating and miserable for me if 3 of my 4 stealthy characters are always assumed to be revealing their positions like idiots.
I don't think that assumption holds up, a coordinated attack isn't going to be frame perfect, and considering how often I have party members thrown into the "Surprised" condition, I expect it will happen in multiplayer too. I haven't stepped through the code, but the sense I get is that when a party member attacks, the reactions all queue up as fast as the computer can process it, and then start to play out. For example I've shot a sneak attack, then tried to switch to my PC, a wizard, to throw down an AOE spell, only to be surprised before I could click the target area. I don't feel like I have any real understanding of what gets a PC into surprised mode as opposed to remaining in free time, able to wander around the map for multiple turns while everyone else waits, but I'm not sure that a verbal countdown over voice chat is going to prevent it from going the wrong way.
D&D combat is turn based, and I think trying to maintain a hybrid mode is causing more problems than any benefits are worth.
Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist 
