Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Weapons Attack - last feedback after Patch 9

Hello,

If I remember correctly patch 5 introduced weapons attack like cleave, pommel strike and so on.
Let's be honnest : I played tons of playthrough since they are implemented in game and I mostly never use them.

I like the idea a lot but I really don't find them appealing currently for a few reasons.


1) FEEDBACK

1.1) Cooldown never make sense
It doesn't make sense that I can only try to attack someone's legs (crippling strike) once per rest.
It doesn't make sense that I can only use the pommel of my weapon (pommel strike) once per rest.
It doesn't make sense that I can only target someone's chest (heartstopper) once per rest.

It does make sense that the power flowing into faithbreaker needs time to recharge. This thread is not about "special" weapons attacks/powers.
"Common" weapons attacks are combat actions : not magical charges or class features. Cooldown does not make sense.


1.2) The distribution of attacks doesn't always make sense
It doesn't make sense that I can only charge (spring attack) with a spear, a glaive, a hallberd, a longsword, a pike or a trident.
It doesn't make sens that I can only feint (opening attack) with a rapier, a scimitar or a shortsword.
It doesn't make sens that I can only try to target someone's legs (hamstring shot) with bows.

It does make sense that ALL bludgeoning weapons allow me to use Concussive Smash !

1.3) The system is overwhelming
There are too many different "common" weapons attack ("common" =/= "special" attacks from magical weapons).
There are too many status dedicated to weapons attack, sometimes with very little variations or that have a very situational effects (disadvantage on ST wisdom, or dext, or...).
Weapons attacks are too changeable.

1.4) Balance is mostly all about cooldown
Weapons attacks are often stronger than normal attacks (same damages but with additionnal status effects), the only thing that "balance" them is cooldown.
With how easy it is to rest use them is not even a choice : it is THE choice. Eventually players have to define when even if it doesn't often really matter.

Conclusion
=> In the end, it is mostly impossible to remember/understand what weapons for what attacks and what attacks for what effects.
=> It is mostly impossible to use these skills as a part of our "build", except eventually if players agree to always use the same weapon.
=> Weapons attacks are often actions "to use before you rest" rather than additionnal tactical (or eventually role play) choices.
=> Many weapons attacks are very situational.
=> The hotbar is changing a lot.

As a consequence, I personnally don't have any strong appeal towards them.
I use pommel strike when I don't know what to do with my bonus action. I may use spring attack when my tank has the right weapon equiped. I sometimes use cleave. And that's mostly it.

I like the idea hidden behind weapons attacks, but not how it currently is in game.


2) SUGGESTION

The game already offer us common actions and common bonus actions.
On top of that, I'd like to have common weapons attacks that may be slightly different depending the weapons you are using... but without ever being overwhelming.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of exemples below. I'm not saying it should be "exactly" like that, just trying to make you understand my idea.
Every details are not clear in my mind yet : that's something I'm currently working on.

2.1) More systematic weapons attacks => to understand easier/faster what weapons for what attacks, to keep them longer in our hotbar, to play more often with some of them.

In my opinion, all weapons should have 3 weapons attacks : 1 common to all weapons, 1 common to clearly defined subgroups, 1 common to other subgroups that may vary a bit more.

- Common for all melee : Charge (spring attaclk)
-- All melee bludgeoning : Concussive smash
-- All melee slashing : Opening strike
-- All melee piercing : Lacerate (or anything else that apply bleeding)
--- 2H : Cleave
--- All 1H : Pommel Strike
--- All versatile : Crippling strike

- Common for all ranged : hamstring shot
-- Common for all bows : prepared
-- Common for all crossbows : piercing shot

If I'm not wrong there are currently 15 weapons attacks in the game. Here it is already 11 different attacks.
Of course subgroups, especially the third layer could be a bit more complicated. It would mean that an attack may change often, another may change sometimes and another may never change.

That is jut an idea that would make things a lot clearer and that should make most of our weapons attack change less often. If they changed less often we will be able to learn to play with them... and I personnaly like better playing with something I understand and remember than having to read tooltips over and over again.

2.2) Less status effects / Well known effects / Clearer tooltips

In my opinion the number of status effects should be reduced and rationalized. Many of them are already small variations of existing status or their effects doesn't worth it at all.

Off balance is somekind of prone. Dazed is somekind of Stunned. Crippled is somekind of Hamstring shot. Gaping wounds is +2 damages against the target ( Which is useless at the beginning and will be useless later).

The small variations / bonuses in many status doesn't worth at all the time is takes to understand and remember the attack effects.
DnD is already complex enough and there are already a lot of status players understand/know from BG3 mechanics (surfaces, common actions/bonus actions...) , from DnD or from other games : bleeding, prone, reduce movement, can't use it's action, reduce armor,...
=> Adding a disadvantage on ST to a status, no reaction to another, loose dexterity bonus to his armor class and so on only makes things too complicated to read / to understand / to remember and to play with.

You should keep it simple in my opinion. Just a few exemples :
- Spring attack could have a chance to apply prone rather than "off balanced".
- Bleeding could make 1 more damage per turn to the target without giving a disadvantage on constitution ST.
- Opening Strike could just give advantage to the next attacks.
=> keep it as simple as possible and don't add status for the sake of it please.

About tooltips... I understand why everything has to be a status in the game's code but tooltips and explanations don't have to be as overwhelming as the code.

A bad exemple : piercing shot
Currently in the game : You highlight piercing shot and read the tooltip / you press T to block the tooltip / you highlight gaping wounds / you read gaping wounds tooltip.
A good exemple : Harmstring shot.
Currently in the game : When you highlight Harmstring shot you understand that this attack may reduce the target's speed by 50% (and the status hamstrung is not even mentionned).

=> Players should never have to open the tooltip of a tooltip to understand what an attack effect is about. Making things easier would also allow to make tooltips clearer.

2.3) Unlimited uses per rest / balance

In my opinion, weapons attack could be a lot more interresting if they were not only balanced with cooldowns.
I'd like to be able to use some "common" weapons actions a lot more often. This would allow us to play a lot more with them.
I'd like my melee characters to be able to charge ennemies even if they already had.
I'd like my archer to be able to try again to shoot an ennemies legs even if he already tried.
I'd like my sorcerer to be able to stab someone else with his dagger even if he already make someone else bleed.

The idea of actions only balanced to be more powerfull than normal attacks and limited with a cooldown is really not interresting in my opinion and it doesn't create a big commitment towards them. It gives me the feeling that they are designed to replace normal attacks rather than to offer more tactical choices.
Normal attack OR enhanced normal attack is not a choice even if one is only available once/short rest.

Use costs and spell effects should be balancing those attacks more than cooldown.
I don't have much suggestions for now, that's the part I'm working on.

Here is in exemple what I did with the spring attack :
- Cost action + bonus actions + movement*0.5.
- Usable once per turn.
- Usable if you are not threatened (I tried to add - unusable on target closer than 3 meters but it does not work well)
- 1D4+mod. damage + a chance to prone.
=> it is usefull, it is more or less correctly balanced, it really is an additionnal action / choice given to players (especially melee).

And what I did with flourish (renamed opening attack if I'm not wrong)
- Cost an action
- Usable once per turn
- Usable if you are threatened
- Give advantage on the next attack.
=> it is usefull and it allow synergies without being complicated. It just use a basic mechanic (advantage) that is translated in the %to hit.

I guess that's it for now.

I really hope this system will be simplified and that weapons attacks will become more "common actions that you can do with your weapon" rather than (complicated) spells you can only use once per rest. In my opinion it currently just add another complex layer to a system that is already complex enough.

I pretty much never use the melee weapon attacks since the damage penalty is too high.

They are great, best homebrew larian did so far by a mile. Of course it could be even better if they worked like smite on hit effects, if you will! Same thing needs to be done for sneak attack!

Maybe extra option could be to make a few class related ones at certain level. But i bet that would make 5e purists pee in their pants. It would mean you could get even more out your build. So maybe for a change we don't just click next on level up all the time?!

But hey i like it as is!
They are great and if you press T you can always read on it again and again maybe repetition will help with memory, don't tnow what to say to that i have a feeling people don't even read tooltips.
People who don't see the use in them lack the imagination?

Topple needs damage the rest are more or less fine. A few more unique ones here or there, would be cool!

Like i posted already DC for those effects needs to be fixed so every class can get the same DC. Few are still bugged as well but i rekcon that will be fixed soon enough.

In my opinion you don't really need imagination when your choice is normal damage + additionnal effect or normal attack (just an exemple but that is available for many weapons attack).

The cooldown used to balance them perfectly show that weapons attack are currently designed to "replace" normal attacks rather than to offer more - tactical / roleplay / whatever you want - options

And the T thing is exactly a part of what I don't like and explained. In my opinion we should not have to read tooltips of tooltips for such "common" things.

complete failure of imagination, but that's just my opinion so if you can't find a use for them pff i sure can...

What commen thing?

It's once per rest and it's in line with everything else.

Sound like you are just too layze to read them or whatever the case my be.

Those effects are the same in design as any other if you can't see that not sure what to tell you. Looks like we going to have to disagree and leave it at that.
You are acting like you knew what prone does the first time you saw it or any other effect for that matter.
Every one had to read what prone does same as for other effect.. How do i know? Because those effect have tooltips/description just as any other thing even in 5e table top. if they were so well known and recognizable their would be no need info or tooltips..

Just takes time to know them by heart for some longer then others. i know every single one and what they do just by looking at icon. Not like some of other Larian spell icons! Now those are a mess and i have to read tooltips. Command spell is one of those if you need an example or hex / enhance ability those are not clear... i hope you see the difference.


Anyway i'm, really not gonna debate this with you cos it's the best thing larian did so far with the rules.. Could even call it one of so far. Other changes were no where close to it. Just be happy they don't trigger when you are at 50% HP.

I thought this thread was about Extra Attack procs working on everything.

More advanced weapons (Martial) *should* have more advanced combat capabilities. Something along the lines of the below:
Simple weapons: +1
Martial weapons: +2
Two-handed weapons: +1
Off-hand weapon (any type)/Shield: +1 (different from main hand so as not to be penalized for using an item in the off-hand)

I see no good reason for not adding a similar action to shields.

As for balancing, using each once per rest seems overly artificial and nonsensical. Also, I assume, very exploitable (something that adds an inelegant cheesy feel of the game) either by dual-wielding different weapon types or by simply swapping weapon types (might be wrong in how it works in-game). This is homebrew, so why not just adopt "DOS-style" cooldowns. 1-2 turn(s) universal cooldown for all special actions after any special action is used. Restrict the use by requiring a bonus action. Thus we would achieve opening up an interesting system for wider use while also balancing/"uncheesing" the system.

In line with what ? Common actions and Bonus actions ? With class ressources ? With Spellslots ?
The only things cooldown/rest are in line with are magical items charges and a few class features. Weapons attacks are neither magical charges nor class related : they are basically combat actions. (This thread is not about "special weapons attacks" that are powers flowing in some magical weapons like FaithBreaker)

Prone is not a good exemple because you mostly don't even have to read tooltip to understand what his main effect is about. First of all there is a visual effect that is clear. This status when applied is not hidden in an icon. Then if you highlight a prone target when it's your turn you instantly understand that you have advantage/disadvantage depending your weapons. And then this advantage/disadvantage is translated in the % to hit. On top of that Prone is applied by many spells/class features/actions. It is something players are used to after a while which is not true for most weapons attack status.

That said and that's exactly what I wrote : you don't need tooltip inside tooltip to give the details. I already gave the exemple of Hamstrung that is completely hidden when you highlight Hamstring shot. The tooltip tell the players what are the effects of the attack directly and it doesn't require an additionnal UI handling. Tooltips are important but reading the details should always be as easy and fast as possible.

Whatever, I definitely agree that adding weapons attack was a great idea. Though I disagree that they are currently well designed.
But you're right : we don't have to talk about it more, especially if your main arguments are "lazy" and "lack of imagination".



That's great suggestions.
I'll definitely think about it when I'll try to define what I'm exactly going to do with my weapons attack rebalance mod.

There are too many overlapping systems that do similar things. The weapon abilities are also so insignificant that I tend to ignore them. Or just click on them without really bothering to read what they do. On top of Battlemasters superiority dice and maneuvers they feel like extra fluff.

Actions like topple should also be basic moves that cost no resource.

Also, way too many conditions now. Off-balance, reeling etc. Too minor and too many, they're just confusing instead of giving any real tactical depth.

Imo, weapon attacks should add flexibility to martials' toolkits, but should remain at similar power levels to basic attacks. This can be achieved by a combination of:
- reduced damage
- penalty to-hit
- enemy saving throw (possibly in addition to needing to hit the enemy)

Such a system would negate the need for cooldowns on these Special Weapon Attacks.

+1 for simplifying the conditions. At the very least, they should be explained better via hover-over tooltips.

Yes, agree on all this.

Just to clarify about saving throw : that's often how it currently works.
There is an attack roll for the damages and a saving throw for the status.

But whatever, there are a lot of better solution than cooldow to balance actions you can do with weapons.
Reduced damages and penalty to hit as you said but also bad consequences if you miss, higher use costs, no damage at all,...

Was thinking about some kind of "head shot" (or foccused shot, whatever the name) for ranged weapons.
- double the damage of the damage roll
- but the attack is made at disadvantage
Isn't that a bit too powerfull ? Guess it could be cool, it would allow synergies through advantage... But I'm not sure it's not a bit too powerfull/too easy to have an advantage. Any thoughts ?

You've partially recreated Sharpshooter, which is generally regarded to be too powerful. Unless by "damage roll" you mean only the die roll, then that's much less powerful, so maybe balanced?

An issue with the penalty being Disadvantage is that it's made useless if the attacker already has Disadvantage -> the ability is now effectively free to use. I'm a fan of numerical modifiers, especially since the video game engine can take care of the math, and it still synergizes well with (dis)advantage.
- E.g., taking a -1 penalty in exchange for expanding your crit range by 1 sounds cool imo.
- Or, taking a -4/-5 penalty in exchange for doubling the damage dice.

Ok so I tried to understand if there were some kind of logic in the game currently and... it is really wierd.
I haven't been able to find all kind of weapons but I have listed all attacks for 20 of them.

- All weapons dealing slashing damage have the weapons attack "lacerate"
- All weapons dealing piercing damages BUT morningstar have the weapon attack "piercing strike"
- All finesse weapons BUT the dagger have the weapon attack "flourish"
- All heavy weapons BUT the longsword have "prepare"

It looks more complicated about bludgeoning damages and other attacks.
Some sword have pommel strike, but not all of them. Some weapons have 1 attacks, some have 2, some have 3.
About ranged weapons, bows have hamstring shot and crossbows have piercing strike... the heavy/long version also have "prepare" and the handcrossbow have a specific additionnal attack (don't know the EN name yet).

I haven't found all weapons but it looks very complicated to define a pattern. Now I'm mostly sure there isn't one.