Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Experience Pts in EA

Disclaimer: This is my first time trying EA/Beta for an RPG, so apologies if this seems like a naive question.

After completing patch 9 twice, I find myself wondering how the experience/leveling will be scaled in the final release. For context, I was able to reach level 5 soon after reaching the underdark in my first playthrough and a bit before the underdark in my 2nd, so I was max level for at least most of the underdark and all of the forge. Since we know that max level won't be 20 (I assume will be 16 at the most), I wonder if the experience scaling is going to change much before release. With this only being a portion of Act 1 and there seems to be enough experience to get to level 7 or 8 (8 was even shown in trailers), if the other 2 acts are near the same size it seems like we would likely spend a large portion of the 3rd act at max level. Personally, I would like to feel like my characters were still mechanically progressing through the entire story. If we get 8 levels in Act 1 and max level is 15 or 16 we may reach it by the end of Act 2.

I'm not asking for more levels, but is it normal to expect significant changes in level scaling coming out of EA? Is it possible that Larian has scaled up the experience for EA to be able to test more character levels?

1st this is EA and everything changes from one patch to the next... how many points you get for doing X is just one of those things that change

2nd imo level 12 is much more realistic than 15 but we get whatever we get... anyone saying they know is lying

This can be missleading ...
We dont really know where they were on level 8 in that trailer ... it may be part of Act II.
The only thing we know for sure is that they were on Grymforge at level 6 ... wich would suggest that completing whole Surface, Underdark and Grymforge content will get you on level 6 (or abowe, but still not to 7) ... and that sounds reasonable to me.

You have to remember that in DnD each next level cost aproximately twice as much XP as previous one ...
So technicaly, if you are moving around same location, geting from 5->6 should take twice as much time as 4->5 did.

Some XP gain tuning is to be expected ...
But i wouldnt presume any drastic changes.

And yes, max leve 12 seems most realistic, but nobody really know, except Larian ... and they are not talking.

With current EA theres enough xp to get to level 6. i did it with mods and 5e xp rules.
The ps5 trailer had characters at level 8, this is likely at the end of act 1/ start of act 2. I dont think they would spoil a lot of act 2 content.
Its EA so everything is subject to change. I note the EA for DOS2 certaintly changed over time but the max level remained around 8-9 with 1.0.
Players like levelling and getting new abilities.
Assuming act 1 is capped at level 7 or 8, and i think many players would like levelling in act 2 and 3, even 4 more levels in all of acts 2-3 seems low, therefore level 12 is likely at the bottom end.
So act 1 8 levels, act 2 4 levels and act 3 2 levels= level 14.

I have no problem if they talk to Wotc about removing or homebrewing certain high level spells that wont work/ remove the fun from the game (e.g. simulacrum).

Personally i thought levels 5-6 was reasonable for act 1.

Is it august yet?

Well ...
If this will be true in final release (reas as: If they dont adjust xp) ...

That would mean we had aproximately 1/4 or less of Act 1 to explore during EA? O_o

Yep.
There would need to be alot of xp in act1b to get us to level 8. I was surprised when they were fighting ketheric at level 8.
Could be faked (but why), but they could definitely change things down to level 6.

Once the game is content complete, Larian will no doubt crunch the numbers and adjust the XP gain. We don’t know what is the level cap and how long the game is, so it is difficult to speculate how far we should be able to progress in act1. The leveling is likely to slow down as we get further into the game, so there could be a discrepancy in lvls per act.

Well the fun part is that we dont really need to know level cap.

Concidering that curent amount of XP in Early Acess get you aproximately on level 6 ...
And that each next level cost aproximately double ... meaning reversed each previous costed half ...

Meaning (unless i count wrong) that if they still are in Act 1 at level 8 ...
Rest of the Act 1 simply have to be at least as XP loaded (and i really presume it aswell mean content loaded ... i mean, why would they use tripple xp mod for their promotion material) as whole EA was, BUT probably even more! O_o
Pure math ...

This certainly makes me quite hopefull about final release!
I must admit i was a little woried about rest of the game ... but hells, if this is true (and yes i realize ho big this if is ... i just chose to ignore it) then BG-3 will probably be bigest game i have ever seen! O_o

Thanks for the feedback everyone! Once again new to EA so didn't know how much experience scaling would change, but sounds like it will most likely be reviewed/adjusted to some extent prior to launch.

Also, I completely agree that 12 is the more realistic max and when I mentioned lvl 16 above that is the highest I can imagine (although very unlikely) it going. I just used lvl 16 in the example to give the most generous level spread. I personally agree with some of you on the max likely falling between 12-14. I think a spread of levels 1-7 in Act 1, 8-10 in Act 2, 11+ in Act 3 would be ideal; but I completely trust Larian to balance the game as needed.

Either way, I can't wait for August!

What was discussed a while ago by community is also a possibility of a soft level cap per chapter. If we will have 12 lvls and 3 chapters a chapter 1: 1-6, chapter 2:7-10, chapter 3:11-12 would seem about right to me.

And of course, how fast we level in EA might not be representative of the final product.

I really like that idea actually, and it would ensure our characters have room to grow in each act.

Yup ... i remember that conversation.

Certainly wouldnt be against it in general ...
Question is how it would feel, and how it would be done ofc.

What i see as bigest problem with this model, is that many people would complain that final Act felt rushed, when compared to the rest ...
Now, *i* dont think that is necesarily bad thing ... in my opinion finale should be "now or never, all in" kind of scenario, and its work of rest of the story to build tension.
But i can imagine some people disliking it ... even if there would be lot of XP ...

The problem with DnD leveling is that you stay exactly the same for very long time ... and the only thing that can effectively change your gamestyle is loot ...
Wich isnt bad thing for me, since i really like Larian items ... but i feel like minority around here in this.

I just had another playthrough specifically to test the githianky fight. And reach level 5. I reached this level without going into the Underdark, without killing the big spider, without killing the githianky patrol, and killed only 2 groups of goblins at their camp. But I completed everything else the main zone has to offer. (No, I didn't kill any tieflings, just followed the normal course of the story)

Considering this and if we leave no stone unturned, as an estimation, when we enter Act II we will have around level 6.5-7

That’s… not exactly my experience. Getting “longsword +1” won’t exactly shake things up the way a new level of spells becoming available or multiattack will. BG3 has of course its gimmick sets, but those are not very D&D-like.

BG3 leveling will be different than let’s say D:OS2 which was more about gaining many levels with incremental improvements, rather than fewer but bigger power spikes.

Well, mine neither ...
But thats not even close to what im talking about.

Indeed, "getting a level" is VERY impactfull in DnD ... especialy on certain levels, as you said where you learn new level of spells, or get lets say new class feature to keep it little general ... no arguments there.

What i was talking about tho, is this ...
The time you spend *in between levels* ... the time, where nothing changes on your character.

If you just look back at your presumation of levels Layout:
And while level 11 is one of those impactfull ...
Lets be honest, 12 is kinda lame in comparsion.
ASI or Feat ... yes, it can be impactfull ... but "can be" is quite important for final level in game, where your character basicaly reaches apex of mortal capabilities in this particular setting (read as BG-3, not as DnD).
Also lets be honest ... unless Larian will implement some supercool final level bonuses (wich i would like, but im affraid would cause another riot from DnD fanbase) ... most of us would allready have those supercoll and impactfull feats from earlier levels, so thats even less impact left for top level in game.

Anyway, the point is that while i know XP gain should incerase aswell ... level gain should slow ... therefore 11-12 should take quite long.
And while we dont really know how long Act 3 will in the end be ... or as the matter of fact, if it will even be needed to reach level cap (you know, completionists ...).

I think its quite safe to presume that we will spend conciderable amount of gametime on levels 10, 11, and possibly 12 ...
And in that time, nothing changes on our character (wich was my point) except for gear we aquire.

I gues it depeds on your GM.

Ah, now I see what you mean.

I would argue that’s the case with most, if not all, RPGs - I can’t think of one to which it wouldn’t apply. Let’s take D:OS2 for example - most levels don’t impact the character in a meaningful way and it had couple power/build variety spikes). There were a lot of levels to gain, but most of them would just make stuff you already use marginally better with occasional new skills and talents becoming available every few levels. I think one could streamline D:OS2 leveling experience to just those spikes in power and utility and I think we would get something closer to BG3.

D&D 5e automates a lot of upgrades and boundless them together - so in something like Diablo or D:OS2 you will level more and make skills you already picked stronger. There is certainly and argument to be made for having players to earn those upgrades one by one, but personally I will take fewer, more impactful levels.

Some players are propelled to play by seeing the XP bar fill and level up notification pop up. While I wouldn’t mind spending act3 playing around with more or less maxed out party, it might not work for some.

I do wonder if it is one of the reasons Larian went a bit more creative with weapons - perhaps they hope to turn items into progression and engaging reward system in itself. In act1 Larian has also been pretty good in providing other “rewards” beside XP or items - camp followers, or unique features like mark of the Absolute or hag’s eye. Those might not directly contribute (or hinder!) to our build, but I think they are still meaningful rewards for completing content.

I think that the slower levelling works best in tabletop because you have other people there, you're not just focusing on levelling. I do think slow levelling is less appealing in a single player video game, but I don't think it's a game breaker. Just less than ideal.

I think we are just getting there.

It feels to me like you are now reacting on that sentence you quoted ... but didnt substitue it back up.
But maybe im reading it wrong.

I could give you some list ...
But i realized that i would actually be listing all the other RPGs i know ... so i think i rather argue that, i, on the contrary, cant think of one another to wich it would apply.

What other game have levels so impactfull and (even more importantly) so far away from each other at high levels as DnD?

In DnD your power grow exponentially (some classes more than others) ... and i think that is quite unique system ...
Most RPGs (at least as far as i know) have much more linear powergain pattern ...
There are even games like Diablo (especialy III.) where your powergain from each level is so meaningless, that basicaly nothing happens, if you just ignore a few and take them all at once later.
Especialy once we are talking about Paragon levels above 800 ...

Yup.
Exactly.

I see i was wrong, we are indeed understanding each other.

That is my asumption aswell ...
EA was after all just testing ground.

Larian wanted to know how well will we accept such items, how they will impact the gameplay, and how will we use them.

My favourite example is "less than 50% HP" ...
You can use it the way most people around here complained about - Harm your own character, or party members right after rest, so you have 50% HP left, and are using your items.
Or the other (my favourite way) - Like regular items with no benefit, until you get damaged naturaly, and THEN get extra power.

Bcs, logicaly, if you are going to ballance your game with such items in mind ... you could use some data on how many people will pick first option, and how many people will pick other one.

Exactly!

Basicaly end game will struggle with same problem as EA ...
Do you remember how many people around here was complaining about "not being able to level futher"?
Same song all over again.

And the only things we will be able to get there would be theese "other rewards" ... no matter if we are talking about items, or some feature ...

Im really curious about how long will we actually spend on max level.
I think making it so that we reach max level really close before final confrontation with last boss ... would suck ... i mean, what is the point of ultimate power, when there is nobody left you can break?
It would be like keep playing EA after you finished it, rather than starting over ... possible, but pointless.
On the other hand, geting max level even before final Act would be simmilary frustrating, even tho for different reasons ...
Just ... curious indeed.

I expect nothing lower then 15, if owlcat a team much smaller then larian where able to make 20 levels and mythic paths in a game, larian a team with more then 300 people have no excuse to not do so. 5th edition unlike pathfinder has everything so streamlined the devs can just copy and paste the code and have it work- with minor changes to adapt to their game engine. We have modders in the community already of 2-3 people who already added level 20 spells in game. There is 0 excuse for larian.

Personally, I’m hoping for level 12 in the full game (as Ragnarok mentioned already, it feels like a natural breaking point, before new spells we’d get at level 13), then DLC/expansion/BG4 to take us up to level 20 in future. I can’t help feeling that a game that took us all the way to level 20 in one adventure would feel too rushed, or that taking us to too high a level in BG3 would leave too little room for manoeuvre in possible future instalments.

I do hope we’ll get to experience a reasonable amount of the end game at maximum level, at least if we are reasonably completionist, but don’t particularly care whether levelling is restricted by act or not. I can see pros and cons, but as long as the levelling is well enough balanced so only people who actively farm for XP are likely to hit max level way too early then I don’t mind if that’s a possibility.

Levelling in EA does feel too fast to me, but I imagine that will naturally be corrected for by the fact D&D levelling slows over time. I agree that given the progress of the story, it was surprising to see characters at level 8 in what we assume are Moonrise Towers but I’m not going to read too much into that. Perhaps the denouement there takes longer to get to than we’d anticipate, there are different longer paths, or the levelling up was just cheated in the trailer.