Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General "subtle spell" vs "counter spell"

will "subtle spell" make "counter spell" no reactions?

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/4crtcj/5e_subtle_spell_uses_and_abuses/

Formally, yes, Subtle Spell should protect *most* spells from being counterspelled.

To counterspell someone, you need to see them casting the spell; this is not fluff or flavour - if you cannot see the spell being cast, then you cannot counterspell it.

The effects of a spell (A bead of light streaking out of your hand towards a point, a massive wall of ice beginning to encircle you, a sickening green ray, etc.) are NOT the casting of the spell; they are is effect. Casting a spell is specifically tied to its three potential components; Verbal, Somatic and Material. Verbal components are comprised of incantations, words and sounds made; Somatic components are gesticulations and the making of specific motions and shapes with your hands, or whatever else you might use to make the gestures; material components are physical, tangible objects that must be held, manipulated or used in the casting of the spell (the hand used to make somatic components can also hold your material if needed).

Now, if the spell has neither Verbal or Somatic components, or they are negated by subtle spell, then they don't exist and cannot be detected or seen as a spell being cast. That leave Material; in most cases, people replace the material component with a spellcasting focus of some description, and formally speaking there is nothing that requires this focus to give off any particular sign that it is being used as a focus - it does not need to glow, be presented or waved around, or any other obvious thing; the caster simply needs to have it to hand; there need not be any particular signifier at all that gives away a spell being cast.

thanks for your answer.

Yes and no... Caster can see or feel the weave or the forming of spells as their being casted, this is like a tingling or extra sensory caster have, even more so IF they have a detect magic spell active... Removing voice, gestures and components is to avoid non-casters ability to pick up on them, handy when you use magic in crowded settings, or to use spells when for example a silence spells, or tied...

i think the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is that a sorcerer uses his/her inner power whereas a wizard uses the weave.

i think a sorcerer still can use his/her magic if there is an area without the weave, unless the area is an anti-magic area or something that can absort magic.

this means if a wizard casts a spell with time "immediate", but the wizard still need seconds for voice and gestures to touch the weave. other casters can sense it and "react" a "counter spell".

but, a sorcerer cast a spell with time "immediate" with "subtle spell", this is the true "immediate", because a sorcerer needn't spend time for voice and gestures, in addition, a sorcerer needn't touch the weave, since a sorcerer is a "magic fragment" form some god/goddess. this means other casters don't have enough time to "sense and react", they only can "sense" a completed spell suddenly appears and too late to react stop the spell.

From PHB about the weave...

-"All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding— learned or intuitive— of the workings of the Weave. "

So no, a sorc is just as dependend on the weave as a mage... the diffrence is simply, mages is theoretical, and sorcerers is practical... to give you a example why all casters more or less have to have a sense of magic, if this wasent the case, then casters wouldent be able to sense magic in the first place, or how do a caster learn a spell, if they cant sense magic to begin with ?... its sorta the chicken and the egg dilemma...

The one exception to casters not using the weave or by passing it, would be runelords, or magic users before the weave... simply explained if casters today use program language, a runelord/lady would use machine code, or what program language is made up of... thats more or less the simplest way i can explain it lol

i think you can refer the website as below, see the chapter "raw magic" and "unexplaioned powers"

https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/sorcerer

a sorcerer is trying to control his/her inner power, dredge and release the power from his/her body.
if a sorcerer can not control his/her power that is growing stronger and stornger in his/her body to accompany his/her growth process, the sorcerer will die.

in early access of the game, my sorcerer has the above very serious dialog choice with gale after the battle of the harpys.

Actually aurora, it's more nuanced than that. Notice how in your quote, it says 'understanding', not 'sense' or 'awareness'. It's a key distinction.

The Weave is the medium through which most mortals access magic; it's not essential for magic (Raw magic exists in all things, but cannot be safely tapped in that way - for a mortal to attempt to do so would in most cases scour them to cinders as well as being completely beyond control or direction), but it's as near as being so, more or less. The exception here is Sorcerers who have the potential to draw on raw magic directly without using the weave; it's dangerous and unpredictable, but for those with that innate magic within them, it's at least possible - this is why sorcerers exist in revered and reviled positions on Abeir, where these is no weave; other spellcasters on Aebir - even divine casters - must go to extraordinary lengths to gain access to workable magic, such as making pacts with intermediaries or by the extremely pains-taking crafting of magic items that can serve as specific magical intermediaries for specific purposes.

On Toril, where the weave exists, it still isn't something that everyone can 'sense' or 'feel' - that's not a faculty that most mortal creatures have, at all. Despite common house-ruling by DMs, you cannot pick up a magic item and 'feel' or 'sense' that it is enchanted; you simply can't. You can observe signs that suggest it is (an inexplicable glow, an unnatural resilience or impossible construction, a defiance of rust, age or wear amongst other things that show their age, and so on), but you cannot just 'feel' that it is magical.

Magic users, with the exception of sorcerers, Cannot simply sense magic or feel the weave. There are spells that let you do so, but without them, you can't.

For casters who use an intermediary (whether that be a divine boss, like a cleric, or a business relationship like a warlock), they can feel the reverberations of magic working through them, and either by force for will or intuitive understanding of what to do and how to work with their intermediary, can direct and control these effects, but what they feel is the second-hand pressure - the work of their intermediary channelling and focusing magic through them, not the magic itself.

For wizards, it's a step further removed: A wizard does not have an intermediary to channel magic for them; they do it themselves, and they do it blind, trusting upon their own understanding and intellectual precision of word, motion and material, and the academic knowledge that certain combinations thereof cause folds and wrinkles in the weave in certain ways; the level of academia required to understand and process this level of detail is very near to beyond our comprehension, and goes above and beyond even most modern scientific pursuits.

But, they must do this, because they cannot innately 'feel' or 'sense' the weave at all: they have no innate magical ability, and that's the amazing thing about wizards - anyone with the brain power for it can become a wizard, because there is no natural innate ability required. Few do, because few have the demanding mental faculties required to go very far in the field.

Think of it this way: To create a water fountain, you need to build the fountain itself, and you need to construct the pipes that lead from the reservoir to the base of the fountain. You know that the reservoir is there behind the wall, but you can't see or feel it. you know that if you build a certain set of pipes in a particular way, however, it should connect to it, and if you build the fountain a certain way, the effect will look the way you want; this is academia that you've studied. So you build the pipes and the fountain, and then you put the last piece in place and twist the handle, laying your hands on the pipes as you do. You do not feel the water itself; your hands don't get wet, and you can't see it or feel it rushing through your fingers directly... what you do feel is the reverberation and rumble of that water rushing through the pipes you built, and then you see the fountain burst to life, just as you calculated it should. That is wizarding.

If you're a sorcerer, on the other hand... you don't really know much about water reservoirs or pipes or fountains... but you can feel a large amount of water just behind that wall, and when you reach out to it, you can feel it shift in response to your call; you can pull it from that reservoir, trough the pattern you can feel it needs to flow though to make the beautiful fountain display that you want, guiding it through the extended senses you have and forcing it to conform when it tries to escape and splash everywhere, by your own force of presence - which it responds to. The wizard/plumber wants to know how you did this, but you can't really explain it to them in a way that makes any kind of sense to them - they want to know by what mean,s by what tool, by what faculty were you able to reach out and manipulate the water, but you cannot explain it any more than saying that you just do it; it is innate to you, and it's not something that can be 'learned'; the wizard cannot 'decide' to become a sorcerer - they simply are not one. You can describe to the wizard what the power feels like as it flows through and around you, and perhaps even see the longing in their eyes as you do so, but you cannot help them or teach them, because you are describing flexing muscles that they simply do not have.

Sorcerers do, generally, utilise the weave in a similar way to others - one because that's mechanically comparable for a game system, but also because it's easier and offers the path of least resistance and smoothest communication for creating effects... but by the lore, external to playing the actual game, they don't *strictly* need to in the same way that other casters do.

oki this from the PHB about the weave, the full explination... i ask you both to look at the second part, where it says Mortals cant... to sum it up, no weave, no spell, period !... The only referens i know breaks this is runelords, and they existed before the weave, the second is making your self more or less a god...

-"T h e W e a v e o f M a g ic
The worlds within the D&D multiverse are magical places. All existence is suffused with magical power, and potential energy lies untapped in every rock, stream, and living creature, and even in the air itself. Raw magic is the stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of existence, permeating every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the multiverse.

Mortals can’t directly shape this raw magic. Instead, they make use of a fabric of magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic. The spellcasters of the Forgotten Realms call it the Weave and recognize its essence as the goddess Mystra, but casters have varied ways of naming and visualizing this interface. By any name, without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible;the most powerful archmage can't light a candle with magic in an area where the Weave has been torn. But surrounded by the Weave, a spellcaster can shape lightning to blast foes, transport hundreds of miles in the blink of an eye, or even reverse death itself.

All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding— learned or intuitive— of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters also use arcane magic.

The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power— gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath. Whenever a magic effect is created, the threads of the Weave intertwine, twist, and fold to make the effect possible. When characters use divination spells such as detect magic or identify, they glimpse the Weave. A spell such as dispel magic smooths the Weave. Spells such as antimagic field rearrange the Weave so that magic flows around, rather than through, the area affected by the spell. And in places where the Weave is damaged or torn, magic works in unpredictable ways— or not at all."


So no sorcs isnt a exception, they still need to use the weave as a "interface"... Heck even devine casters isnt even excempt...

a sorcerer is
"Arcane magic is in your blood, as a touch of either ancient draconic power or untamed chaos energy, and you unleash it through sheer force of will and physical discipline."

this description is from the below website :

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...rent-from-the-magic-permeating-everythin

yea, and no matter if its in your blood or raw in the world, you have to use the weave as a "filter" all casters have to, what differs is how you tap into or use the weave, but all casters have to, as the rule state, all magic depends on the weave... there is no exceptions,bear runelords but that was before the weave, read what i posted... even a ranger use the weave by their "faith" in nature and cuddly bambi deers

now if you want to play with your own rules, thats oki, but in DnD 5e, its crystal clear...

a sorcerer can do
"The Weave of magic infuses every part of Faerûn, and some people(the sorcerers) have the natural ability to perceive, touch, and shape the Weave."
a sorcerer can shape the weave!

https://www.worldanvil.com/w/forgotten-realms-djverne12/a/sorcerer-article

also you can see a sorcerer as an "electric eel", and a wizard is a "power plant engineer".

a wizard without the power plant(the weave) can not make any power. (engineer)
but, a sorcerer can make power from him/herself. (electric eel)

To Aurora, mechanically yes, in the hard game system, that's accurate enough, but what I'll ask you to remember is that there have been times during which the weave was missing, dead or unstable, and other means of utilising magic in the world were found, tenuous and dangerous though thy were. I'll note again, Abeir, where there is no weave, still has spellcasters - though they are fewer and the process is more taxing and dangerous for a variety of reasons.

In general, without the weave, mortals cannot tap magical power - but there are always exceptions to this general rule.

I linked the page with information on these exceptions - I'd encourage you to take a read at your leisure, but the core of it is here - sourced from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and Magic of Faerun primarily


Emphasis mine: Typically it worked a certain way, but saying typically means that there are atypical cases and examples.
Mortal casters found that using raw magic directly was less malleable than when used with the weave - ergo, ways were found to do so, otherwise such a comparison could not be made.
The majority of spellcasters use the weave to cast spells - ergo there exists a minority who do not need to.
Times have existed during which all spellcasters had to learn to use raw magic without the weave, because it wasn't available.
In places where no weave exists at all, only innately magical creatures - which include Sorcerers - could easily manipulate magic.

The main point is that while the general rules are true generally, there are exceptions, and the weave is not strictly essential, especially for mortal sorcerers.

Mechanically, in the 5e game system it is - but that's a system balance element, because within the base lore that doesn't quite hold true. Like I said at the top - there's more nuance to it than that.

Here is the thing... house rules and coming up with personal rules its fine, i personaly kinda like the idea of a sorcerer as in a sense unbound from the weave... but this is the imprtant thing, personal opinion or rule of cool sohuldent be used or brought up when people ask for the rules... as said go read PHB page 205-206 about the weave... there is often alot of fluff stated, but fluff and statments doesnt deny what is stated in other rules, again i know a sorc is their "raw, magical blood" hell in a sense every sorc is their own unique caster, but regardless how unique or special they are, all casting in DnD 5e we have to use the weave as a "filter" there is no exceptions of playable classes, wich is also directly stated in the rules, no weave no spells, all magic depends on it... PS your mention of the before the weave times, yea that is the exceptions, but that is essentially runelord times, we know they did magic back then wthout the weave, couse there were no weave, but back then casters were essentially all runelords, and we have no cannon rules how it actually worked back then, its guess work at best...

again i myself have made a runelord class, wich more or less gives you acess to all spells, no matter its type, but you need 13 in all caster stats, you are essentially a hybrid caster, and while you gain access to more spells you loose spell slots, you trade width for power as you wield a bulky primal form of casting essentially you use machine code instead of a programming language... in anycase, i think we have said what should have... but again personal opinion and the actual rules, no matter if their fun or cool... now if you can find me somewhere in the rules that specifially says sorcs dont use or are dependent on the weave, ill agree with you, but there is no such statements, all it refers to is "raw free magic", and no matter a sorcs blood, raw special magical will powerish, its as stated, we still need a the weave all casters do, even devine ones...

And thanks for keeping a civil tone, i want to clear this, im trying to be as polite and non besser wisser as i can, typing in a forign language isnt easy