Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases!

Initial take was:


At the same time, if earlier humans lost in specific classes only to the races specialized for these classes, now they are absolute outsiders. Any other choice would be better. And only small races will lose to humans in the speed of movement.

While I do think Larian did a poor job giving humans new racial traits, there is a couple builds I think could be interesting.

Human Wizard.
STR: 16 (+1)
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 16 (+2)
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

Light Armor proficiency gets AC 14.

Polearm Proficiency to wield a Halherd, Glaive, or Pike. Take Polearm Master and Sentinel feats so you can smack anyone who runs up to you and stop them from getting into melee range.

Pretty gimmicky but kind of funny too. Works with Sorcerer and Warlock as well.

Alternatively, now every class a human plays is one feat away from medium armor and shield proficiency. You could go for a traditional wizard or sorcerer and be rocking 19AC with half plate and a shield.

Still, given Human Fighter is the most popular combo ever I hope Larian thinks of something better than this or else there's no reason to play a human fighter.

Second build is pointless. Shield dwarf wizard already has medium armor and shield prof. Save one feat. First - funny, but both feats mean that no stats improvement. And in this case there will be many misses. Even Laziel with her str. misses regularly. Summary: very mediocre wizard with melee capabilities. But point to you. Really funny and using humans excellent profs.

So all this discussion made me want to fiddle with Pathfinder 2e and see what their choices have led to. PF2e has the option of giving any character two floating ability boosts (+2 to an ability score) no matter their race, which is what humans get. So I decided to use that and make a dwarven sorcerer using a variant of the draconic bloodline, one that grants divine rather than arcane spells.

Using the dwarven racial feats, I was able to create a very solid spellcasting tank with access to battle axes from level one, which most casters can't get but mine could because of a dwarven weapons racial feat. So without racial ASI, I was still able to make a wholly unique type of character that I could pretty much only make because I was playing a dwarf and given access to unique racial feats. So no, I still could have made a normal sorcerer too and been as good as any other, but pf2e let me make her race an interesting mechanical part of her throughout the leveling process. Whereas in 5e all that the racial ASI would have done is keep her behind any sorcerer from a race that doesn't grant +2 charisma. So I reiterate mine and many other people's point here; ASI is a poor, boring way to demonstrate racial differences and if you want race to really matter then you should be pushing for more unique racial features more than anything else. Things that open up new ways to play classes by using different races, encouraging creativity and new avenues for mechanics and roleplay alike.

You're making an argument based off of PF, which is largely a reskinned 3.5E? And your argument for why your dwarf feels dwarfy despite having halfling equivalent stats is because you've given him an axe that he's really not going to be any good at using?

No, I believe the argument is the dwarf feels like a dwarf thanks to unique feats and features (which happen to include proficiency with iconic weapon groups) despite not receiving an arbitrary penalty to their spellcasting ability as they would in core 5e.

Also, you're mistaking Pathfinder 1e and 2e there which are vastly - and I mean vastly - different games with different design philosophies.

Yes, that is exactly my point. Despite my character's stat spread, no halfling could have the overall build I've given her. Not only that, but her racial feats influenced the stats I gave her. If she were a halfling I wouldn't have put the extra points into strength and constitution to beef up her attack and survivability further, and it also influenced my feat choice because I took general feats that synergised with her racial feats. Is she going to be the best combat mage the game could produce? No, there are ways to do better. But people here have complained that the push to remove racial ASI is a min max thing, so the fact she's not the best should be evidence against that. She can function in a unique way as a sorcerer by virtue of being a dwarf, as opposed to just being an inferior sorcerer, as she would be if I made her in D&D.

At this point just make humans the "variant" human with a free feat, instead of doing silly things that doesn't jive with a ton of classes.

This is the solution. It's a pretty easy fix and there's no reason they shouldn't implement it. Unless Larian has some mission to disincentivize people from playing humans. But like it or not, people want to play humans, and it's the number one race picked by beginner DnD players.

Personally, I pick my race based on my class and when I play a Wizard, I prefer to play a human PC. Now I feel like I should pick a different race because by choosing human I will be building a weaker PC. This shouldn't be the case and ironically has the opposite effect of what they're trying to accomplish with the ASI changes.

I'm not a huge fan of the ASI change but I can accept it so long as they balance things out now and fix the issue humans and half-elves now become less appealing. Not sure what you could do with half-elves but humans should definitely get a feat at level 1! Easy fix and I promise it's one everyone would be happy with.

Highlighted the key detail imo. Racial ASIs are one way of preserving the uniqueness between races; representing the fact that they're physically and/or mentally distinct, not just differently-colored humans. If there was *sufficient* distinction through racial abilities/level-1 feats, then I at least would be more fine with removing ASIs. However, the racial abilities as they currently are don't satisfy that condition for me, and so removing racial ASIs makes the different races so much more generic and homogenous without adding anything back.

E.g., Orcs have Powerful Build. However, this basically has no effect on gameplay, and the little effect it does affects ~all classes the same. Everyone needs to carry stuff. If Powerful Build granted some mechanical bonuses to shoving, str-based weapon attacks/damage, and/or athletics checks: that'd be more appropriate for the "solidly built, muscly, 6+ feet tall, well-suited for melee combat" orcs and could be an acceptable replacement for losing the native +2 Str bonus.

Based on what I saw, the only option was a +2/+1 floating attribute bonus on a screen that was shared for every race, so adding +1/+1 for variant humans (I think?) would mean a redesign of that and make humans exceptional amongst other races in having a different way of giving bonuses. Unless similar things were introduced for other subraces like half-elves or shield dwarves. Not that I'm saying that it would be bad, but it would involve a rollback of the design philosophy that Larian seem to have adopted and therefore I wouldn't call it an easy fix.

Sounds like we're basically on the same page actually. I've come around to the position that ASI shouldn't be removed without adding some new stuff to up the flavour. As it stands now, I just think ASI is the least interesting way to distinguish races, but it's most of what 5e has got.

Feels pointless.

The Mage Armor spell with a 14 Dex will get you 15 AC, already better than what Light Armor will give you.

Wizards also only have 1d6 of health so the front lines with a polearm is the LAST place they want to be.

Warlocks already have proficiency with light armor as a class feature and sorcerers are in the same boat as wizards. If it's a draconic sorcerer then you don't even need mage armor because it is automatically 13+dex modifier, which again would be higher than what light armor is giving.

WHY LArian, WHY! Why did you implement the controversial option from Tashas!. You should reimplement the basic raw Racial ability score bonuses asap. I love your game, but this is a major f...ing gripe I have with the game now, and Im not alone let me tell you.

Racial ability score bonuses is a major part of what sets the races apart and makes them unique. Choosing class with race should not be an easy choice. And playing a race that is not optimized for a class is half the fun of pairing such a race with a class.

Really hope you retcon this decision or atleast add PHB Racial ability score bonuses as an option.

PS: Also as a sidenote, please add an option for choosing a deity as a Paladin. In SCAG it clearly states that "most Paladins are dedicated to a deity". And lorewise the source of a Paladins power is from a deity or divine being. Yes mechanically its through an oath, but the powers are sponsored by a deity through that oath.

Making Paladins as they are now is just silly, an atheist/Pantheist Paladin with an Oath dedicated to no one? It doesnt make any sense imo.
You dont even need to add any relevance to that deity choice (voice lines etc). Just have it there. Or better yet you can add the same dialogue options that clerics have if you want for that deity.

The new approach just makes some races universally objectively better. When before each race had pros and cons depending on what class you chose now that nuance is lost. Dragonborn, as weak as their racial bonuses were, had +2 STR and +1 CHR which made them decent Paladins and ok at other classes that use STR based weapons. Now they are straight up worst race. Compare for example Drow and Dragonborn.

Drow get:

SUPERIOR Darkvision
Fey Ancestry - great against crows control spells
Rapier Proficiency
Shortsword Proficiency
Hand Crossbow Proficiency
Drow Spellcasting - 1 good cantrip and two good spells

Dragonborn get:

Draconic resistance - resistance against one specific elemental damage type - ok but very situational
Breath Weapon - sounds cool and powerful, in reality weaker version of level 1 spells Burning Hands that you can use ONCE A LONG REST. On level 6 it is as good as level 1 spell Burning Hands, and once you reach LEVEL 11 than it deals 1d6 more damage.


Half elves are still one of better races, due to keeping most elven bonuses, but they are now just weaker Elves.

Some subraces are also universally better than others, such as Gold dwarves being better than Shield Dwarves in most cases. Deep gnomes being better than Forest and Rock (again more often than not). Races tier list now, regardless on what class you pick:

S tier - Elves, Half orcs
A tier - Dwarves, Tieflings, Half Elves, Gnomes
B tier - Githyanki, Halflings
C tier - Dragonborn (not F only cause they look cooler)
F tier - Humans