Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Bye bye Paladin Deities

Why would WOTC care if this game had paladin tags for deities?

It is a real possibility that WoTC is trying to disengage the concept of divine casters from deities. They sorta did it already with druids and rangers IIRC. The Paladin stuff sorta presented it as an option, but the wording has been so noncommittal and nebulous that we have reached a point where large swathes of the community don't recognize the connection between paladins and religion, even in worlds where it's part of the bones of the setting. Wouldn't be surprised if clerics were next. There was a tie-in survey sometime before the big D&D movie where one of the questions asked how people would feel about non-religious clerics (in the Forgotten Realms!)

My personal tinfoil hat theory? I suspect it's just WoTC trying to chase the biggest demographic possible yet again. I have known personally from my days playing D&D that a lot of people of certain religious dispositions really don't like the idea of 'having' to roleplay a follower of a religion. There's also a portion of players who just don't want to engage with a roleplay-heavy class, so boiling the class down to essentially a superhero who has to stay true to his convictions instead of becoming familiar with the dogma of some deity and adhere to their external moral code is more approachable.

Fair enough that all sounds reasonable (that it could happen not that it's a good idea). It is frustrating for me since I agree with WOTC's goal of increasing diversity but they just always seem to find the worst way to bring it out. Like with the Drow instead of having them reject Lolth enmass to show they aren't inherently evil. Like have Drizzt and Eliestree show Drow there is a better path they decide to create new drow societies. One idea builds upon decades of lore the other is just lazy.

As for religion the other frustrating thing is they can have non-religious paladins, hell even clerics, I am always for the atypical character, but taking it away from people. Especially since the vast majority prefer deities with those classes. A both are inherently religious, the whole concept of paladins is that they are holy warriors and everyone I know who has played one has wanted a holy warrior that was close to a deity.

I wasn't into DnD before this game got announced but if true, that seems like a very sad development. Then again, what is stopping Larian from enacting their own 'homebrew' rules for this game? Isn't that very much the spirit of DnD?

Legal agreements

That doesn't really make much sense to me. It's not like Larian is breaking any written rules by supporting that playstyle. It's just extra flavour that is in line with the lore as presented in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

I was just stating why Larian might be hamstrung if WOTC was trying to push some remove deities from paladins directive like someone theorized

Found an interesting 2019 twitter thread on the issue from Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms setting). Here's what he has to say:

One becomes a paladin by hearing and accepting a call to holy service. That acceptance is cemented by an oath. If a paladin transgresses against their oath, the usual absolution, as the PHB states, is to seek absolution from a cleric of the same faith. Paladins DO worship deities, and like any other mortal, may receive requests from mortal priests or divine servitors, or messages directly from a deity (usually through dream-visions, or literal visions appearing to a praying paladin). So although paladins by their very nature are semi-independent agents, fighting evil as adventurers rather than being temple guards, they DO serve deities. Being a cleric or a paladin in the Realms is NOT “doing what you want as an armored killer but also having healing spells because some god likes your ilk.” Although you, as a paladin, serve a god or alliance of good gods (to literally fight evil, and do so largely ‘in your own way,’) EVERYONE in the Realms ‘believes in’ all the gods, and you as a paladin may encounter priests who expect to be able to command you. Some paladins DO act within strict church hierarches, but Player Character paladins are more the ‘operate on their own’ agents. However, if your deity commands you to do something (like obey or work with a mortal priest) and you don’t, you shouldn’t expect to retain your paladinhood. What makes you a paladin is a “sacred oath,” and therefore the support of the gods. Yes, you could disobey one god but remain a paladin by obeying the will of another, but that’s a very dangerous game. Some deities in the past were micro-management types when dealing with mortals, but increasingly all FR deities are more distant, leaving mortals more to their own devices.

The thing that interests me most about that is the idea that according to him paladins serving a particular church aren't 'the norm' necessarily. They're more like knights errant than old school knights Templar. That definitely is another thing that sort of sets them apart. Clerics are the formal 'Folk of the Cloth' as it were, who are educated in all the traditional rites and deep lore of their deities. Paladins meanwhile, are just as faithful but they're typically outside the traditional church structure, which opens them up to interesting possibilities and angles. Like the alliance of gods thing.

I wonder who or what Larian thinks their Paladins swear an oath to. Maybe it's down to inclusivity - hey, atheists can be Paladins too.

In a game that, so far*, features at least four gods it seems strange to dump the Paladin deities.

* The Dead Three, Shar (and Lloth?)

Tyr is blasphemously invoked by the Paladin LARPers.
There is a non-progressive Goblin who does not follow the cult of the Absolute but sticks to Maglubieyet (spelling?).

I thought it was something like the Deities just bless them with some powers so they can do the work those deities support, kind of like an Oracle in Pathfinder. So the Paladin didn't chose that deity, the deity choose them.

I would still like to be able to select deities for worship just for the sake of getting reactivity in dialogues.

D&D 5E: SCAG: "Most Paladins, like Clerics, are dedicated to a Deity in the Forgotten Realms".

Lorewise, MOST paladins are, but mechanically you dont "have" to choose a deity in 5e. But the vast majority of players who play as a Paladin in 5E, select a deity.

Lorewise, and D&D player base wise, its a given with atleast an option, (like Cleric in BG3, just add none to please the minority, problem solved).

But Larian have been quiet on this so far.

Most likely one will have to either mod *like in EA), or alternatively multiclass to a cleric. Will still be Cleric dialogue, but that will be a workaround I suppose.

Citation needed.

Not really, its common sense, but ok.

Numbers may vary depending on setting, but I would assume the vast majority playing in the Forgotten Realms do.
Pre 5E I believe it was required (correct me if Im wrong, going off of memory here). So most ppl pre 5E did. Most of those ppl, would probably keep doing that. Lorewise most Paladins do, so anyone who is paying attention to the lore, the spells, abilities would (imo). Those who dont care too much about all that, will most likely go out of their way to make a background or backstory to justify not doing it.
Personally I have yet to see a paladin player who hasnt, (that being on streams or RL). I know about 30 ppl RL who play dnd. Of the 9 examples (7 ppl) I can draw from (10/8 if including myself) , all their paladins had a deity, and I was not their DM.

And well it makes Logical sense. Now to what extent the majority of players/dms interacts with it after character creation, is offcourse a wider question.

Yeah I mean I have never played with anyone whose paladin didn't have a deity that was a big part of their story nor have I ever seen a Critical Role like streaming group play a paladin without a deity. Plus the very concept of Paladins both in DnD before 5e and in all other media is that they are holy warriors inbued with holy powers by a god.

And while as someone who likes to play against type frequently I have no issues with WOTC making it so people who do not want to have a deity can play paladins making it so everyone else can't it just a terrible idea

You could play a triadic knight or something similar (paladin devoted to multiple gods simultaneously) Or a Paladin empowered by an unknown patron, but the latter seems like it would be extremely niche and unlikely circumstance.

What you *don't* have in the realms is people just swearing an oath and becoming empowered from the mere act of swearing said oath. Because, as has been discussed-divine power comes from the gods, and additionally the magic spells of divine casters are formed from weave magic, so you have to have 'the gift' in the first place to cast spells (and those with the particular attunement to be able to cast divine spells are particularly rare)

Fun fact: most 'priests' in the Forgotten Realms can't actually cast spells, because the act of merely being particularly devout isn't enough to be able to channel spells. Neither is it enough to have the particular strain of 'the gift' that allows you to channel divine power because without a divine patron you might as well try to become a wizard.

Thus you really don't have much in the way of 'home grown' divine casters. The setting mechanics just really doesn't support it. Either such individuals are gonna be screened out by clerics of local temples looking for recruits with potential, or they'll get a vison or somesuch and be more directly called by a divine patron that sees potential and a kindred spirit in them. If neither case, you just don't have a divine caster.

I wonder, based on how they're treating multiclassing, if Larian's intent wasn't to have paladins multiclass into cleric to get specific divine reactions? Since paladins are devoted but not necessarily well-schooled in their religions, so the cleric dip is meant to represent them having that deeper knowledge and understanding?

honestly, I'm just hoping at some point for a mod that just changes paladins to be more cleric-like, gives them the cleric tags for dialogue options or something.

I too want a Deity, and I want A blackguard/death knight template. I I know the oath breaker is suppose to be like the black guard.. meh didnt feel like it to me. Straight up Death Knight is what I want. Guess what? its not going to happen.