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Although I know that a Lore Bard is probably the best Bard subclass, I'm thinking of playing a College of Swords Bard for my first run through of the release version, as fancy a more "Gish" character (but with "face" skills), but don't want to play a Pact of the Blade Warlock. Was thinking of taking 2 levels of Paladin (but Dex-based as there is no Str 13 requirement in BG3 for multiclassing), to boost my melee attacks with Smites and to get Shield proficiency and Defence fighting style, but to still not nerf my spell casting or other Bard perks too much.

I'm unsure of how best to level such a multi-class, though. I will be playing as a full Drow (mostly for RP, but the free spells and Superior Darkvision are nice, though Wood Elf would probably be the meta choice for the bonus to movement speed, Stealth proficiency and longbow proficiency).

Starting as Paladin first gives you the bonus to Wis saves (nice for helping you to not fail when targeted by "save or suck' spells) and Heavy Armour Proficiency (I won't be wearing Heavy Armour, but some Helmets and Gloves may require this proficiency). It also gives you Shield and Martial Weapons Proficiency from the off (e.g. for Heavy Crossbow).

On the downside, it slows down your overall Bard progression, in particular delaying your Extra Attack to level 7 or 8, which is very late, and also delays your access to level 3 spells and all your other Bard abilities. On top of that, it's more limiting in which skills proficiencies you can pick at level 1 and delays you getting your first ASI.

As I see it the main options would be to go:

1) Paladin 1>Bard 1-6>Paladin 2>Bard 7-10
Or
2) Paladin 1-2>Bard 1-10 (or Paladin 1>Bard 1>Paladin 2>Bard 2-10 or even Paladin 1>Bard 1-4>Paladin 2>Bard 5-10)
Or
3) Bard 1-6>Paladin 1-2>Bard 7-10
Or even
4) Bard 1-8>Paladin 1-2>Bard 9-10

At the moment I'm probably favouring option 3), with option 1) a close second, as don't want to delay either my extra attack nor access to Smites for too long, but was wondering what everyone else thinks? Which option would you recommend to be good throughout the game, not just at the end?

BTW I don't want to respec, as would kill the immersion for me, except maybe to take Two Weapon Fighting as my fighting style at level 3 Swords Bard (to compensate a little for the late Extra Attack), then respec to Duelling when I get my extra attack at level 6 Swords Bard - I can sort of justify that in my head as "re-training".

Another option would be to Draconic Sorcerer (White Dragon Bloodline) 1>Bard 1-11 - would give me the bonus to Con saves (nice for helping to maintain concentration), early access to the spells Armour of Agathys, Shield and Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb (and maybe Absorb Elements, if in the game, which would be great with AoA), plus 4 extra offensive cantrips on top of my Bard ones (e.g. Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Ray of Frost, Firebolt). That build nerfs my Bard progression less, and gives some great defensive and decent offensive damage spell options (something Bards lack), but limits the damage that I can do in melee combat considerably, compared to MCing Paladin levels. You also miss out on Simple Weapons Proficiency, but would still get Rapier, Shortsword and hand crossbow proficiency from Drow and Scimitar when you get College of Swords at level 3 Bard.

I'm not aiming for a "tank" frontliner, more a skirmisher who can come in and do a few turns of high damage with Flourishes and Smites and then disengage, either before or after casting some spells. Mostly because that's fun, rather than necessarily being "optimal".

Last edited by Metalogic; 20/07/23 08:41 AM. Reason: Adding information about weapon proficiencies

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level 1 Bard to get the best skills start, second level in Paladin because you want the proficiency ... once you hit the beach make your own mind up when to add the next level but i'd wait until you have Bard upto level 5


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That's an option, though all that taking Paladin at level 2 gives you that you really need is Shield Proficiency (and Martial Weapons, which I guess might be useful for Heavy Crossbow / Longbow proficiency, but all the other weapons I think are not finesse-based, except for getting proficiency in Scimitars one level earlier), and compared to taking it a level one, you lose out on the Wis save bonus and heavy Armour Proficiency (though that's only really any use for my build for Helmets/Gloves/Boots that may require it). It does make skill proficiency selection more flexible, though. If not taking Paladin at level 1, I'm not sure that it's worth delaying your Bard progression (and ASI), though, until after level 6, if you're not getting the other benefits.

Last edited by Metalogic; 20/07/23 10:58 AM.

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The important question is - are feats and ASI tied to the class level or a character level. Is there any info on that?

Last edited by neprostoman; 20/07/23 01:29 PM.
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Not that I've heard of!


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I suggest Paladin 2 - Bard 10 if you really want to play a swords bard that can crush things. You end up with the same amount of skills, just fewer choices for the fist two. However, you gain a lot for picking Paladin 2 first including the early shield and medium armor, which gets you to 19 AC in the first hour and a half of the game.

Getting the smites and dueling at level 2 will pay off dividends if you rest frequently as each hit counts for almost three hits. By the time you would get multi-attack by staring Bard, you will have two 3rd level spell slots uses of smite, which is going to put out way more damage when you hit than a straight Swords Bard could do.

If you are only worried about damage output, I wouldn't go back to Paladin ever.

My one caveat for this build is that I would suggest you respec for one single reason at level 5. I'd change your fighting style for Paladin from Dueling to Defense or Protection and pick Dueling up from the Swords Bard choice. Nothing really changes in you character that way as you have all the same things you did up to that point, but you dont get stuck with Two-Weapon Fighting. Up to you of course, but to my mind that is just fixing a limitation rather than breaking immersion.


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Originally Posted by neprostoman
The important question is - are feats and ASI tied to the class level or a character level. Is there any info on that?

Tied to Class level. I think it's safe to say they haven't changed these rules based on the fact that ASI's show up on the class charts.

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I'm thinking of Fighter->Sword Bard myself.
As for lore reasons I will be using a Longsword two-handed, I will pick Great Weapon Fighting and stick to it, AC be damned smile.
My only dilemna is whether to switch at F1 or F2. I will miss out on Action Suge, but will gain a 2nd attack not at 8th but 7th Char lvl.

Class levels counting for ASAI were supported in the video by the chubby bearded guy on YT.

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Originally Posted by Metalogic
Although I know that a Lore Bard is probably the best Bard subclass, I'm thinking of playing a College of Swords Bard for my first run through of the release version, as fancy a more "Gish" character (but with "face" skills), but don't want to play a Pact of the Blade Warlock. Was thinking of taking 2 levels of Paladin (but Dex-based as there is no Str 13 requirement in BG3 for multiclassing), to boost my melee attacks with Smites and to get Shield proficiency and Defence fighting style, but to still not nerf my spell casting or other Bard perks too much.

I'm unsure of how best to level such a multi-class, though. I will be playing as a full Drow (mostly for RP, but the free spells and Superior Darkvision are nice, though Wood Elf would probably be the meta choice for the bonus to movement speed, Stealth proficiency and longbow proficiency).

Starting as Paladin first gives you the bonus to Wis saves (nice for helping you to not fail when targeted by "save or suck' spells) and Heavy Armour Proficiency (I won't be wearing Heavy Armour, but some Helmets and Gloves may require this proficiency). It also gives you Shield and Martial Weapons Proficiency from the off (e.g. for Heavy Crossbow).

On the downside, it slows down your overall Bard progression, in particular delaying your Extra Attack to level 7 or 8, which is very late, and also delays your access to level 3 spells and all your other Bard abilities. On top of that, it's more limiting in which skills proficiencies you can pick at level 1 and delays you getting your first ASI.

As I see it the main options would be to go:

1) Paladin 1>Bard 1-6>Paladin 2>Bard 7-10
Or
2) Paladin 1-2>Bard 1-10 (or Paladin 1>Bard 1>Paladin 2>Bard 2-10 or even Paladin 1>Bard 1-4>Paladin 2>Bard 5-10)
Or
3) Bard 1-6>Paladin 1-2>Bard 7-10
Or even
4) Bard 1-8>Paladin 1-2>Bard 9-10

At the moment I'm probably favouring option 3), with option 1) a close second, as don't want to delay either my extra attack nor access to Smites for too long, but was wondering what everyone else thinks? Which option would you recommend to be good throughout the game, not just at the end?

BTW I don't want to respec, as would kill the immersion for me, except maybe to take Two Weapon Fighting as my fighting style at level 3 Swords Bard (to compensate a little for the late Extra Attack), then respec to Duelling when I get my extra attack at level 6 Swords Bard - I can sort of justify that in my head as "re-training".

Another option would be to Draconic Sorcerer (White Dragon Bloodline) 1>Bard 1-11 - would give me the bonus to Con saves (nice for helping to maintain concentration), early access to the spells Armour of Agathys, Shield and Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb (and maybe Absorb Elements, if in the game, which would be great with AoA), plus 4 extra offensive cantrips on top of my Bard ones (e.g. Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Ray of Frost, Firebolt). That build nerfs my Bard progression less, and gives some great defensive and decent offensive damage spell options (something Bards lack), but limits the damage that I can do in melee combat considerably, compared to MCing Paladin levels. You also miss out on Simple Weapons Proficiency, but would still get Rapier, Shortsword and hand crossbow proficiency from Drow and Scimitar when you get College of Swords at level 3 Bard. Besides this I am actually a student and because of the homework I can't manage to play as I would have liked, in fact I really want to spend more time in the game, that's why I turned to more info, here I found Essays on Of Mice And Men, I found it very interesting and I even made tangent with the game; for me it was a discovery, that's why I want to recommend it to you.

I'm not aiming for a "tank" frontliner, more a skirmisher who can come in and do a few turns of high damage with Flourishes and Smites and then disengage, either before or after casting some spells. Mostly because that's fun, rather than necessarily being "optimal".


Bard 1-6 > Paladin 1-2 > Bard 7-10 is best for me. It allows you to access Smites and some Paladin features early on without significantly delaying your Bard progression. This build will maintain a good balance between melee damage potential and spellcasting abilities.

Last edited by lilianrexford; 28/07/23 10:19 AM.
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What ability scores and skill proficiencies do you plan on taking with this build?

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Originally Posted by Broccoli
What ability scores and skill proficiencies do you plan on taking with this build?

Not sure I will actually run this build in the end, might just play a single-class Swords Bard, but for starting attributes probably: Str 8 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 17, aiming to have these stats by level 4 or 5 (using some items): Str 8 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 17(7 natural) Wis 10 Cha 18

Skill Proficiencies (If starting bard first, anyway): Perception (from Drow), Acrobatics & Performance (from Entertainer background), Persuasion, Deception, Insight. Mostly party "face" stuff. Gale can cover for Intelligence-requiring skills.

I'll have Shadowheart in my party and also Astarion some of the time, so wasn't going to take Sleight of Hand (they both have proficiency in it), and Shadowheart can help with making me Stealthy, when needed (using Pass Without Trace).

Last edited by Metalogic; 30/07/23 04:56 PM.

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Sounds like a lot of fun and also a lot like my own plan for my first playthrough.
I was thinking about a Devotion or Ancients paladin and sword bard or valour bard as a half wood elf or half high elf.
I was planning on taking Sleight of Hand for myself, but i wasnt aware Shadowheart also has decent dex and proficiency in this skill, so i might want to rethink that. Although as a bard you can get expertise in this skil.
Furthermore perception and persuasion.
I was thinking of going 20 CHA, but you're right, DEX is more important for the martial abilities of this build.

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I think if I do go for a Paladin 2/Bard 10 build I will go Bard until level 6, think it's important not to delay my first ASI, Song of Rest, level 3 spells, Font of Inspiration, d8 Inspiration die and Extra Attack, and my Expertise and Jack of All Trades will be useful from the off. It also gives me more time to consider if I want to actually multiclass or not. Am definitely playing as a Seldarine Drow, though 😃

Last edited by Metalogic; 30/07/23 09:14 PM.

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I am curious which level up path you took in the end and if you are happy with that.
Do you have any advice for this build?
I’m probably starting with my build after the weekend.

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Originally Posted by Broccoli
I am curious which level up path you took in the end and if you are happy with that.
Do you have any advice for this build?
I’m probably starting with my build after the weekend.

I actually went for a Drow dual-wielding Draconic Sorc (White) 1>Swords Bard x, in the end, as decided I didn't want to hassle of having to manage an Oath, and wanted to be more of a spell-casting melee character than just a Smite machine, even though a Bardadin will definitely do more damage.

The Sorc level gives you the bonus to Con saves to help with your concentration, the +3 AC unarmoured combined with an item you can get early in the game which gives another +2 AC unarmoured means you can have AC 18 unarmored with Dex 16 before you even get your first ASI. Access to Shield spell as a reaction (+5 AC for a whole turn) and/or a Defensive Flourish (+4 AC) means you don't often get hit, and Armour of Agathys when upcast gives you a nice HP buff AND damages enemies that do manage to hit you with Cold damage, and Magic Missile and 4 Sorcerer cantrips add some good offensive dmg spells (something Bards are otherwise a bit lacking in).

You also benefit from getting both Sorcerer and Bard dialog options (and all the Drow ones). Taking Drow gives you back most of the Bard weapon proficiencies (rapier, short sword, handcross bow) you otherwise wouldn't get by taking Sorc first and some free spells with their own slots (Faerie Fire and Darkness). It does delay your Bard progression by one level (but not your spell slot progression at all), but you still get your Magical Secrets by level 11 and a level 6 Bard spell at level 12. I don't regret my choice.

Last edited by Metalogic; 17/08/23 10:02 AM.

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I don't understand bard 1 1st.

go paladin 1 to get heavy armor.

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Originally Posted by Oldnight
I don't understand bard 1 1st.

go paladin 1 to get heavy armor.

Am not bothered about heavy armour, as if I do run a Paladin /Bard MC at some point, I'd go high Dex anyway and taking Paladin first would slow my Bard progression and limit which skill proficiencies I can initially take.


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There are more heavy armors than just your chest piece.


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