Cyberpunk was playable at launch, but it had hilarious bugs. Performance was somewhat bad on PS, I heard, but I played it at launch and it was fine for me. Didn't even get a T-pose once, and I was playing on a laptop.
Please, can we don't turn Karlach Ending thread in to Cyberpunk thread? Don't trying to be rude, but there exist a Cyberpunk`s sites and forums where people can chat about CB, if they wanna.
Welp, now I'm mildly obsessed with Karlach as a tavern barkeep. I wouldn't take it as a sign of anything that may actually be added to the game, but as a concept? Sign me up. My urchin Tav would be overjoyed to help running a place in their favorite city.
Please, can we don't turn Karlach Ending thread in to Cyberpunk thread? Don't trying to be rude, but there exist a Cyberpunk`s sites and forums where people can chat about CB, if they wanna.
Welp, now I'm mildly obsessed with Karlach as a tavern barkeep. I wouldn't take it as a sign of anything that may actually be added to the game, but as a concept? Sign me up. My urchin Tav would be overjoyed to help running a place in their favorite city.
I can already imagine us strolling in, ordering a beer, and when she asks for payment we wink at her and tell her, "Just put it on my Tav."
It would pretty cool if with the circus love questions (where will karlach be in ten years) an option was owning a tavern with your Tav was available now.
So I'm here on this thread to vent because I'm extremely upset about how Karlach as a character is handled. It stresses me out to a huge degree. I decided to play as a female elven bard on a 1000% good, straight-laced playthrough. You know, a fun, goofy kind of character so as to have the most fun! The kind of character who can and will smear warg droppings on her face if it gets her out of a pickle, and then walk around with that on all day. And at first I was dedicated, gotta romance Shadowheart, she's the safe bet. And that was all fine and well until I *accidentally* triggered Karlach's first romance scene. Not to spoil at all but, compared to Shadowheart's first romance scene, Karlach's COMPLETELY blew me away and my bard fell, like, in love. It was so sweet, real, raw, natural and comfortable.
Karlach was the perfect romance partner for my chaotic good bard OC-- she was THE only clearly and unambiguously good-hearted character out of all Act 1 origins, fun and goofy, trying to get everything out of life, dancing when everybody's watching. And like... playing as a heroic character on an intended playful/fun playthough... then thinking it's a great idea to romance the irrepressible gal who catches your eye.... who is pretty much the only person who's wholeheartedly enthusiastic about you from the beginning... who makes you laugh, whose positivity and zest for life is infectious...... then...... OMGGGGGGGGGGG. The level of heartbreak. We all know. Whoa. It's kind of ruining the game for me. And 10000% ruining that playthrough. When you think about who's going to romance Karlach, it IS a million percent going to be someone going down a good/heroic route. Somebody who plays games for a remotely happy ending, you know? Me personally, I play games to heal my heart, not to feel vicariously traumatized by them.
Karlach doesn't NEED to tell a story about terminal illness and trying to make the most of life in light of that. If that's the story that's being told. It's gratuitous, wildly unnecessary. AREN'T THERE ENOUGH PEOPLE WITH TERMINAL ILLNESSES IN REAL LIFE that we don't need to have the trauma reiterated in a video game??? Why shouldn't you be able to make your own fantasy a safe place if you want it to be? Same as, you should be able to make your fantasy horrific if you want it to be. But your own fantasy shouldn't make you stressed and upset and reiterate tragedies that we see every single day.
And I'm also speaking as someone who HAS lost somebody to a terminal illness. And to see it again in a game with someone who is so easy to feel deeply attached to.... no, no, no. Please, NO.
My one last point, and I hope this one is cogent and well-taken. Remember that movie Get Out? Yeah the one directed by Jordan Peele. END SPOILERS for that if you don't want the end of that movie spoiled for you, okay? I'm going to talk about the end. So Jordan Peele had two prospective endings lined up. Ending one is what we saw in theaters. The main character (a black guy) has just killed bloodthirsty white lady, who turned his life into a freakish horror movie, and a police car pulls up, lights flashing. For a moment you CRINGE so hard.... OMG the cops have come and we're going to see our hero killed or thrown in jail when he did nothing wrong. But thank GOD, it turns out to be his friend and they escape together. HUGE sigh of relief.
BUT there was an alternate ending that never aired. The cops did show up. The hero was thrown in jail. And he talks to his friend on a phone in prison and says that he's glad that he at least ended the horrors of that bloodthirsty white lady etc. OUCH CRINGE CRINGE. The worst. But THERE'S A REASON Jordan Peele chose the FIRST ending. And it's because we see enough pain, suffering, injustice, in real life. We see ENOUGH horrifying things happening to good people. We see enough tragedy. So Jordan Peele chose to give viewers a path beyond tragedy. A happy ending. And personally I'm so grateful he did.
I hope that folks can see the comparison here with the story of Karlach. What happens to her almost makes the game unplayable for me, straight up. And I'm just some random person who completely lost herself in Divinity Original Sin 2, LOVED the romance of Sebille by Lohse and its conclusion, and was SO excited about Baldur's Gate 3. I still think it's amazing. Of course. But like... if you want a heroic playthough with a thoroughly good-hearted romance partner, it'll break your heart and be so painful that you question whether it was worth it. :'(
Shadowheart is fine and all but for a chaotic good character like mine, a silly bard taking every opportunity to be pleasantly ridiculous, having my girlfriend threaten to GUT me is an enormous turn-off. And Karlach would never dream of threatening that, let alone doing it, to my character. Those are my thoughts/vent. I hope that this vent, adding to the upsurge of voices recorded here, contributes to Larian re-considering how they handle Karlach. Her newest ending definitely included. Yeah it was better. But still. I'd like to see something significant done about her problem BEFORE we have to see her literally dying.
Thanks for reading, folks. Yeah, justice for Karlach.
I think after it's all said and done, we can talk about the plot holes, the inconsistency with regards to concessions given to other companions, the inexcusably bad quest line, the fact that her quests just straight up don't matter, the fact that her endings actually indirectly ruin other endings...
But the fact is that her kind of story just doesn't feel like it fits in a game like BG3. It's not just unsatisfying in terms of removing player choice but, considering everything we are able to do for everyone else, it just seems like unneeded cruelty in a setting where you can escape the wrath of literal gods for the sake helping other companions. But Karlach is tortured and destroyed because her engine is... Old I guess? Because that's REALLY an issue in DnD?
No one really likes her endings and ABSOLUTELY no one likes her quest line.
Last edited by Sunriders Destin; 29/09/2307:50 PM.
Thanks. I hope they work out a better questline for her. In terms of what kind of ending would be satisfying to ME personally... I'm not too hard to please. I'd be happy with an ending where she and OC (or whoever you play as) are free to get a fresh start, after everything. And I like it when my in-game romance partner says something at the end of the game like, 'wherever you go, that's where I'll go, because we love each other, right?' A brief acknowledgement that the love story is continuing. So I'm not asking for a LOT. Or... so it seems to me. DOS2 had some kind of crowd-funding campaign, right? I seem to remember. I'd be more than happy to donate whatever I was able to a campaign like that, if it meant that they could re-work Karlach's character.
I disagree. I think tragic stories have their well earned place in video games. It's just that they have no place here, in a freaking D&D game about magic and shit and being able to kill powerful demons solo in 1 turn (6 seconds). It was never advertised as a game about doom and gloom, it was advertised as goofy adventure about romancing a bear and flirting with anything that moves, talking to funny animals and committing a horrible atrocity or two if you so incline. But not boring sobby mess about incurable conditions.
I wonder if everyone here is content with her engine possibly exploding trope at all, personally I found it utterly boring to begin with. Do you guys want her story to be about saving the damsel from unstable heart to be fleshed out or something else entirely? I think it would lack nuance in the matter, you either help her if you like her or not, there is no room for debate or moral dilemma. They can introduce it of course that in order to save her you have to sacrifice someone else, we'll see.
I already made a point that I would like them to redo her questline from scratch from act 2 onward (there isn't much to scrap tbh), based on what is known about her and her engine:
- The engine gives power and martial prowess to the user and modifies their body (fire resistance, fiery skin) and personality a bit (makes her rage more) - The engine can be modified by an infernal smith with infernal iron and maybe something else - Zariel is very offended that her asset escaped Avernus and wants her back dead or alive - Karlach experience in Avernus is very traumatic due to almost constant warfare for a span of 10 years and initial betrayal of the person she trusted who sold her to Zariel
This are enough pointers to evolve her character on a basis of Revenge vs Freedom. In act 2 Dammon comes to her with a project of further improving her engine, pushing it beyond its limits. Some rare creatures or elementals must be hunted for the materials, but in result she gains more power and some unique abilities. Zariel lackeys then attack, but Karlach disposes of them alone and without much effort. However it becomes clear that overclocking the engine had an effect on her personality, she suddenly becomes more violent and irritable. She notices it too and makes an apology to the MC, but time is of the essence and we move forward to act 3.
This is something I keep thinking about, especially because Larian choose a specifically outcome to Descent into Avernus in DnD that preceded BG3.
Basically, in Descent to Avernus your party could possibly redeem Zariel (or try) while trying to return Elturel to Faerun. Of course, as an adventure in DnD, much is open to decide. But Larian did decide on Zariel still being an Archdevil, but Elturel to have returned.
There is a magical item in Avernus that belonged to Zariel, a sword that basically makes anyone who touches it an angelic form of themselves (it’s irreversible and the person is basically gone, kinda Astarion ascended vibes/mindflayer, but for good and celestial perfection).
It would be awesome if Karlach’s quest involved going to Avernus for the chance of either killing Zariel (revenge pure and simple) or redeem her. Karlach trying to redeem Zariel could be very interesting, since she’d have to see something to redeem, and maybe we could learn more about what it was like for her in the Hells. But she’d have a big choice there - using the sword would erase herself, but also “cure” her, since her body would become “perfect”. It’s akin to Shadowheart’s choice of serving Shar. The entire thing could lead to Karlach learning to let go of revenge and show compassion instead.
The idea that on this journey Karlach has to deal with becoming more aggressive and violent the more she uses her engine is perfect. Zariel herself, who made the engine, is exactly that: extremely belligerent, ruthless and full of wrath. Perhaps the engine makes Karlach more and more like Zariel herself, bringing her closer to the same path that led the former angel to fall. That would be quite interesting to see. And in that, maybe we could find out that Zariel favors Karlach because unconsciously she reminds her of her former self - righteous but ruthless, raging and charging into battle head first. Zariel used to do that too, for what she saw as greater good but she lost her path. Karlach could perhaps be a way of Zariel to redeem herself, while Karlach redeems her, you know? And if Zariel sees that, she might offer a way to “fix” Karlach, or if she returns to her celestial form, cure Karlach herself.
Of course, in losing the engine, Karlach would lose much of her strength, perhaps needing to “respec”.
Well, that’s what I’ve been mulling over the past few days haha
Last edited by sailorgundam; 30/09/2307:16 AM. Reason: spelling
That would make a fine campaign but Karlach would still remain robbed of a meaningful narrative choice in her BG3 adventure to setup all of this.
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
There is a magical item in Avernus that belonged to Zariel, a sword that basically makes anyone who touches it an angelic form of themselves (it’s irreversible and the person is basically gone, kinda Astarion ascended vibes/mindflayer, but for good and celestial perfection).
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
But she’d have a big choice there - using the sword would erase herself, but also “cure” her, since her body would become “perfect”. It’s akin to Shadowheart’s choice of serving Shar.
I'm catching very heavy "Rejection of the Gift" vibes from WoW lol, where Illidan refused to become a holy entity which would erase his traumatic experiences, shouting "I AM MY SCARS" at the creature who tried to forcibly transform him and destroying it.
I wonder if everyone here is content with her engine possibly exploding trope at all, personally I found it utterly boring to begin with. Do you guys want her story to be about saving the damsel from unstable heart to be fleshed out or something else entirely? I think it would lack nuance in the matter, you either help her if you like her or not, there is no room for debate or moral dilemma. They can introduce it of course that in order to save her you have to sacrifice someone else, we'll see.
I already made a point that I would like them to redo her questline from scratch from act 2 onward (there isn't much to scrap tbh), based on what is known about her and her engine:
- The engine gives power and martial prowess to the user and modifies their body (fire resistance, fiery skin) and personality a bit (makes her rage more) - The engine can be modified by an infernal smith with infernal iron and maybe something else - Zariel is very offended that her asset escaped Avernus and wants her back dead or alive - Karlach experience in Avernus is very traumatic due to almost constant warfare for a span of 10 years and initial betrayal of the person she trusted who sold her to Zariel
This are enough pointers to evolve her character on a basis of Revenge vs Freedom. In act 2 Dammon comes to her with a project of further improving her engine, pushing it beyond its limits. Some rare creatures or elementals must be hunted for the materials, but in result she gains more power and some unique abilities. Zariel lackeys then attack, but Karlach disposes of them alone and without much effort. However it becomes clear that overclocking the engine had an effect on her personality, she suddenly becomes more violent and irritable. She notices it too and makes an apology to the MC, but time is of the essence and we move forward to act 3.
This is something I keep thinking about, especially because Larian choose a specifically outcome to Descent into Avernus in DnD that preceded BG3.
Basically, in Descent to Avernus your party could possibly redeem Zariel (or try) while trying to return Elturel to Faerun. Of course, as an adventure in DnD, much is open to decide. But Larian did decide on Zariel still being an Archdevil, but Elturel to have returned.
There is a magical item in Avernus that belonged to Zariel, a sword that basically makes anyone who touches it an angelic form of themselves (it’s irreversible and the person is basically gone, kinda Astarion ascended vibes/mindflayer, but for good and celestial perfection).
It would be awesome if Karlach’s quest involved going to Avernus for the chance of either killing Zariel (revenge pure and simple) or redeem her. Karlach trying to redeem Zariel could be very interesting, since she’d have to see something to redeem, and maybe we could learn more about what it was like for her in the Hells. But she’d have a big choice there - using the sword would erase herself, but also “cure” her, since her body would become “perfect”. It’s akin to Shadowheart’s choice of serving Shar. The entire thing could lead to Karlach learning to let go of revenge and show compassion instead.
The idea that on this journey Karlach has to deal with becoming more aggressive and violent the more she uses her engine is perfect. Zariel herself, who made the engine, is exactly that: extremely belligerent, ruthless and full of wrath. Perhaps the engine makes Karlach more and more like Zariel herself, bringing her closer to the same path that led the former angel to fall. That would be quite interesting to see. And in that, maybe we could find out that Zariel favors Karlach because unconsciously she reminds her of her former self - righteous but ruthless, raging and charging into battle head first. Zariel used to do that do, for what she saw as good but she lost her path. Karlach could perhaps be a way of Zariel to redeem herself, while Karlach redeems her, you know? And if Zariel sees that she might offer a way to “fix” Karlach, or if she returns to her celestial form, cure Karlach herself.
Of course, in losing the engine, Karlach would lose much of her strength, perhaps needing to “respec”.
Well, that’s what I’ve been mulling over the past few days haha
Awhile back when I decide to delve into some Avernus lore, I found what I thought was potential for Zariel to do a whiplash redemption story arc. It could be a fascinating character.
Fallen angel but for the "right" reasons, at least according to her. Her celestial peers did not agree so fallen she went.
She seems to make the most of it. Rising to power with the approval a big timer of the hells no less. Zariel was considered a token however, a sort of prize. The hells being able to turn an angel to their side or something along those lines.
Karlach has potential regarding Zariel redemption arc.
If Karlach were to receive some sort of intervention or fix to her engine, it would be interesting to see it go from infernal powered to maybe something like radiant powered.
That would make a fine campaign but Karlach would still remain robbed of a meaningful narrative choice in her BG3 adventure to setup all of this.
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
There is a magical item in Avernus that belonged to Zariel, a sword that basically makes anyone who touches it an angelic form of themselves (it’s irreversible and the person is basically gone, kinda Astarion ascended vibes/mindflayer, but for good and celestial perfection).
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
But she’d have a big choice there - using the sword would erase herself, but also “cure” her, since her body would become “perfect”. It’s akin to Shadowheart’s choice of serving Shar.
I'm catching very heavy "Rejection of the Gift" vibes from WoW lol, where Illidan refused to become a holy entity which would erase his traumatic experiences, shouting "I AM MY SCARS" at the creature who tried to forcibly transform him and destroying it.
Awhile back when I decide to delve into some Avernus lore, I found what I thought was potential for Zariel to do a whiplash redemption story arc. It could be a fascinating character.
Fallen angel but for the "right" reasons, at least according to her. Her celestial peers did not agree so fallen she went.
She seems to make the most of it. Rising to power with the approval a big timer of the hells no less. Zariel was considered a token however, a sort of prize. The hells being able to turn an angel to their side or something along those lines.
Karlach has potential regarding Zariel redemption arc.
If Karlach were to receive some sort of intervention or fix to her engine, it would be interesting to see it go from infernal powered to maybe something like radiant powered.
Yes, that's the feeling I got too. That Karlach's fate could be tied to Zariel in that sense. A good writer could make this very nuanced and complex, which would fit the vibe of BG3. It would've been really cool.
I also thought of something like a different energy powering her, one that wouldn't consume her and was blue like the Steel Watch (or when she gets all lovey). Now that you mention radiant, it would be an awesome idea.
I also keep thinking of the hollyphant we have in BG3, Valeria. I don't know why or how she is there, but we know there is Lulu, the hollyphant who used to be friends with angelic Zariel that roamed Avernus after losing her memories. I read somewhere that Zariel found out about her (ex) friend, but could not kill her. Instead, she sent her out of Avernus and to Faerun. WHAT IF Lulu was Valeria without her memories? And somehow we find that out, and in helping Lulu regain her memories, she travels with us back into Avernus to help with Karlach/Zariel. That would've been a-ma-zing (especially if Lulu turned into the super cool golden mammoth of celestial wrath :0 )
That would make a fine campaign but Karlach would still remain robbed of a meaningful narrative choice in her BG3 adventure to setup all of this.
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
There is a magical item in Avernus that belonged to Zariel, a sword that basically makes anyone who touches it an angelic form of themselves (it’s irreversible and the person is basically gone, kinda Astarion ascended vibes/mindflayer, but for good and celestial perfection).
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
But she’d have a big choice there - using the sword would erase herself, but also “cure” her, since her body would become “perfect”. It’s akin to Shadowheart’s choice of serving Shar.
I'm catching very heavy "Rejection of the Gift" vibes from WoW lol, where Illidan refused to become a holy entity which would erase his traumatic experiences, shouting "I AM MY SCARS" at the creature who tried to forcibly transform him and destroying it.
Never heard of it. Sounds rad, though.
It's a moment that works particularly well for Illidan, it's perfectly in character and encapsulates what he is all about. Unironically one of my favourite WoW moments, cause it's earned. Long story short, (and somewhat inaccurate, but for the sake of brevity and convenience:) llidan sacrifices everything to obtain demonic powers that permanently change him, he does so in the pursuit of stopping the big bad while being shunned and exiled by everyone he holds dear. In this particular moment he gets a shot at "redemption" by this divine being, which begins to change him against his will. He proceeds to curbstomp said being while proclaiming that "his destiny is his own". He doesn't need to be purified because his actions are his own, the consequences are his to bear, his scars make him who he is and all that matters is that he sees his hunt to the end. It works because of his story, IMHO.
Now I didn't went on a WoW loresplaining spree with no intent, mind you: i just wanted to say that a similar arc for karlach would fall incredibly flat because her story so far is fundamentally different, she doesn't sacrifice anything of her own volition, she gets robbed of every single thing. However, in this imaginary scenario, it could be spun in a Vengeance/Forgiveness fashion. I personally wouldn't find it very cool, but it could work nonetheless. (Although yeah, I really don't know what asspull would be necessary to find something to justify a "Forgive and redeem Zariel" option.)
It's a moment that works particularly well for Illidan, it's perfectly in character and encapsulates what he is all about. Unironically one of my favourite WoW moments, cause it's earned. Long story short, (and somewhat inaccurate, but for the sake of brevity and convenience:) llidan sacrifices everything to obtain demonic powers that permanently change him, he does so in the pursuit of stopping the big bad while being shunned and exiled by everyone he holds dear. In this particular moment he gets a shot at "redemption" by this divine being, which begins to change him against his will. He proceeds to curbstomp said being while proclaiming that "his destiny is his own". He doesn't need to be purified because his actions are his own, the consequences are his to bear, his scars make him who he is and all that matters is that he sees his hunt to the end. It works because of his story, IMHO.
Now I didn't went on a WoW loresplaining spree with no intent, mind you: i just wanted to say that a similar arc for karlach would fall incredibly flat because her story so far is fundamentally different, she doesn't sacrifice anything of her own volition, she gets robbed of every single thing. However, in this imaginary scenario, it could be spun in a Vengeance/Forgiveness fashion. I personally wouldn't find it very cool, but it could work nonetheless. (Although yeah, I really don't know what asspull would be necessary to find something to justify a "Forgive and redeem Zariel" option.)
Now that you explained it, this sort of arc would fit Zariel if anything, not Karlach.
Still, I think that something on the lines of Karlach swallowing her hate could work to an extent. Another thing that gets only hinted at is that Karlach can be very selfish when it comes to saving her own skin. She mentions she would have not stuck out her neck for Wyll if he was in his place, and that she did not help the Elturans in Avernus. She also has no big moral issue using soul coins if it means she can win/survive. We know Avernus itself influences people and taints them, so I always thought this could be Karlach's "corruptible" aspect. Even Auntie Ethel's "custom" Vicious Mockery pull on that, saying that Karlach is not so wholesome when it comes to sacrificing herself. Some sort of story arc could have steemed from that.
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