Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [MAJOR SPOILERS] End of game discussion

Act I: great, Act II: phenomenal. I felt like Larian really hit their stride in Act II. I loved the shadowfell place. When I persuaded that spider guy to give me his lantern and he was like 'the absolute must protect us, she must' and walked off into the darkness only to start screaming for his god, I was horrified and it still haunts me a little. When you fight Thorm and he says 'I'm going to kill you', I believed him. But when I got to Act III, every 'ending' they gave me just felt hollow. Even Gortash and Orin's boss fights felt glossed over where their characters did not. Gortash lording over the city did not feel to me like the idle threat it turned to be, Orin's character was so good and I was astounded by her showing up around that town and I loved that she stole a member of your camp (as like a story beat i mean). (My only critique being that in my playthrough, despite having non-compainion characters in camp she took Gale which pretty much shut me off from doing anything with him because I did the 'kill Gortash and then go fight her' route, and after I fought her it felt weird to not go fight the final boss from an rp perspective you know? So Gale was neglected.) What I'm trying to say is, I took these bosses seriously but I feel like the game sort of laughed at me for doing so in a sense. Orin said 'take care of Gortash and we'll fight to the death', and I took care of Gortash and our fight to the death was just 'meh'. The build up, wonderful. But the actual ending didn't deliver the cathartic conclusion for anything I had worked towards/done.

In my playthrough, I didn't do the thing to fix Karlach. And at the end of the game when the narrator is - super breifly - explaining to me that I beat the game, she - I kid you not - was like 'Oh yeah, and Karlach is on her last legs so you better go say goodbye', the screen cut to black, and the game was over. Like, I'm laughing writing this because it was just so comical how cavalier it was. There was no 'me experiancing the consequinces to my actions' outside of passive observation of me being alive and not a mind flayer, Lae'zel leaving, Astarion saying we should go to a bar and text on the screen saying Karlach was gonna die so better go say goodbye. There was no goodbye. I liked Karlach, we were on good terms in the game, and there was a point where she said to me after the Gortash fight, crying, that she was going to die and she was sad and it *was* sad. But then, the ending gets there where it's time to come face-to-face with that and...? All that build up and no pay-off. I didn't have to say goodbye to Karlach after I promised her I would find a way to save her and then didn't and I didn't even have the option to. It just a rushed, empty 'oh yeah and also she's totally going to die'. Which is sad, or should be, but I was laughing because of how absurd it felt. And that's just an example, because that feeling of just emptyness was through all of the supposed 'conclusions' to the routes I took with the characters and the games ending itself. They were all robbed of pay-off in a game I can say did in fact make me emotional in other parts of the story. So it just struck me as not right. When you're playing a game without any real story-depth or feeling, you can excuse stuff like that but this is not an hollow game in the slightest. Someone in a different thread said its like that picture of two-thirds of a really well-drawn horse and then the last third is just thrown on, and I really agree with that (although I wouldn't disrespect Larian by calling any of this game 'thrown together'). While 'unacceptable' is a strong word, it's disappointing that even though you technically offer many endings, there are undoubtably ones that leave you with this feeling. If there are endings which do conclude, I didn't get one and it leads to the feeling that there is a 'right' way to play the game. That some endings are endings you aren't supposed to get. If there are truely no endings that conclude things, then it's a bigger issue I guess. Its such a big game its hard to be sure which one is the case from a singular perspective. With a boast of 17000 endings is it surprising to me that some fall flat? Maybe it shouldn't be, but it seems to me there would be way to fix this.

IMO, this game could really benifit from a real epilouge. Personally, I would love a shorter, 'fourth act' sort of thing, but I'm under no illusions that that would be some easy feat. Obviously an undertaking like that would be a ton of work/time/money and probably only really be viable as a dlc so probably a pipe dream, but at the very least and epilouge. A goodbye. Larian is not lacking in story-telling skill, obviously, they wrote genuinely good characters and a genuinely good story and further this is a genuinely good game. I'm already playing through it again and I'm astounded at just how many different ways something so simple as the conversation with Nettie can go. I have no problem with where the story led to, in any regard. My gripe is solely that it feels like Larion cut themselves off mid-sentence.

And in the biggest sense of that (or at least, the one I care about the most), Astarion.

I loved 'the pale elf' quest-line and I love Astarion, so I was disappointed to say the least when 'the pale elf' ended and there was just... nothing else. (For context, Astarion and I were max approval and I had up-and-to that point consistantly tried to curb his freedom = power thing throughout, to the point I even got a dialouge at one point saying 'I can't be the good you see in me'. Which, fair-play, but also: deispite saying so, he was. Hear me out.)

At the end of 'the pale elf', in the case where you beat up Cazador, Astarion turns to you standing over the vampire lord that's about to die and asks you to help him. I am specifically going to be talking about the things that could result from this ending to his character quest-line. Idk about the others so just for clarity this is me 'setting the stage'.

Everything up and to this point I enjoyed and this scene ripped my heart out. However, it doesn't matter what choice I made to his plea, I got no conclusion for his story. And I feel like there was a lot of missed potential here.

1) At the first check, the yes or no, I feel like there should be a path where you say 'no' and have him not immediatly leave your party for good. Especially, if not specifically, if he has high regard for you. IMO, at this check, if you tell him no he should, 1) do the stabby thing - (Now *I* don't mean to be cavalier, I had to legitamately get up and go take a walk after I saw this. Genuienly, as I approach closer and closer to it in a second playthrough, there is a sense of foreboading at reaching that particular point again, in a good way. Its amazing that Larian pulled off making me feel such a way about their story.) - then leave the party immediatly BELOW a certain threshold of approval; 2) ABOVE a certain threshold/romanced he should do the stabby thing and then go back to camp and wait there, then, you can go and talk to him and THAT should determine if he will leave or stay and just break-up with you, or a long rest cutscene where he confronts you about it. High dice roll there for getting him to stay of course but you should be able to convince him.

2) At the second check, yes or no, (the one where you can throw the knife or not), if you say 'no' and throw the knife, he should fight you like he does, but the fight should pause before you kill him and your choices there should determine if the fight continues and you kill him or if he leaves and goes back to camp and waits for you there, then you should have a dialougue that determines if he leaves or stays and just breaks up with you, or a long rest cutscene where he confronts you about it.

In both these cases I think it makes sense that he would break up with you (at least for a little while) if in a romance, but at a high approval rating it's weird that he just outright leaves and then thats just it. He's gone.

In the case of a 'yes' answer (he ascends), I have no comments or critiques. I think it was great.

However, this should not be the end of Astarion-centeric questing and that's my main issue because even though the quest line ends, it doesn't conclude anything. It's obvious when you play it that the story isn't over, but it still just stops.

There should be a quest after 'the pale elf' quest ends. It doesn't have to be one singular quest, maybe a slightly varried quest depending on what you chose in the previous one + romance or non-romance.

Larian told us at one point we could argue with our romance options and we shouldn't just blindly be yes-men to them, but it feels like an thankless thing because at least with astarion your disapproval with his 'power is freedom' thing doesn't really matter in the end no matter what your relationship is. If he doesn't ascend, he leaves. And if he does ascend he gets power-crazy and....? Nothing else. You don't get the option to resolve that. So, I want Larian to let me argue with him. They already have the framework for it after all in the choices they give you like 'a beloved slave is still a slave' and 'all that and you don't even know what you got', and that sort of thing. There is no quest-line for helping him *heal* from whatever happened to him in either outcome. Astarion deserves healing too.

Here's some things I was thinking of,

1) If you said no and he leaves immediatly (low approval). Nothing, he's gone. Maybe you should be able to find him in baldur's gate? But I don't think you consevably could convince him back from that from a low approval. Maybe you could fight him though...?

2) If you said no and he leaves after a camp conversation (high approval up-and-to that point). It would be fun if after a few rests you were able to find him in Baldur's Gate, in the place you ruined everything for him maybe, and possibly convince him to come back/maybe start a fight and kill him, maybe start a fight and convince him to come back before you kill him, little things changing depending on how he left.

3) If you said no and fought and killed him. Obviously, he's dead. Nothing happens and he's gone forever.

4) If you said no and he stays (platonic). He should just be more frigid to you the rest of the game. More stand-offish. Maybe his approval is capped, doesn't want to talk about it, possibly he leaves at/after the final fight on bad-ish terms.

5) If you said no and he stays (romantic). Quest line that ends in either rekindling your romance or not or he ends up leaving the party for good. (Whatever happens, I think he should be more subdued - or frigid, depending - to you the rest of the game even if you rekindle your romance. The game is too short after that point to fix the after-math of that and he definitly would feels some type of way about it. Not really trust you as much after or feel like you don't have his best intrests at heart or just be depressed/grieving everything. Or maybe there could be something a la shadowheart or Lea'zel, because given what they chose to do they also grieve their 're-birth'. Karlach grieves her lot too. Or, maybe just some good old-fashioned convincing that the right thing to do isn't become the person who caused you so much pain, just for others now. Astarion obviously knows it's not 'correct' in a moral sense/how it feels. He obviously feels some type of way about it. Maybe if you uncover enough in the cript a route unlocks where it is possible to convince him.... etc etc im dirgressing.)

In any case, there should consiquences tied to letting all those vampire spawn go in some way. Or you can, despite keeping them alive, refuse to release them and just keep them locked down there.

6) If he asends (platonic). 'The pale elf' ends and a quest line pops about how power-crazy he is now. Can end with him coming to his senses or you basically giving up on him and just being like 'it is what it is' or you killing him.

7) If he asends and you break up (romantic). Quest line about how power-crazy he is now. Can end with him realizing he is, in fact, love with you in the way he said he was previously and coming to his senses and getting back together, or you giving in and crawling back and becoming his pet, or you killing him.

8) If he asends and you stay together (you said yes to the vampire thing)(romantic). Quest line about how power-crazy he is now. Can end with him coming to his senses because even though you said yes to him he's freaking you out and the Astarion you know is being eaten up by this new Astarion and you help him regain himself because you won't abandon him, you liking him the way he is now and you want to be his pet and just be lavished upon forever, you breaking up with him, you killing him I guess lmao.

Astarion is such a good character. For the conclusion of the pale elf, my jaw was on the floor, I was horrifed, I was relieved, I was literally shaking. It was really, really, really good and then it just abruptly ended with nothing further even though there was obviously more to be said.

Let me argue with Astarion. Let me change his mind, or ruin our relationship, or kill him for the greater-good, or be his pet for the rest of eternity as is (tbh, im not mad about it lol). If this game had the freedom of choice to do something like that in a character quest, for me, it would ascend into the heavens as the greatest game of all time hh.

Let me be clear: I don't want Astarion to change, I want conclusions. I don't want things removed, I want the end of the sentence. I would be extremely disappointed if his character was completely rehauled, to the point that I might even stop playing depending lol. The issue is that Astarion's plot feels like it stops without being over. Neither you or he ever gets an answer to that question you can always ask him 'what are we to you?'. At the very least, not with the Astarion your character spent most of the game falling in love with.

At the end of the day, its astarion. I don't want to break the logic of the character. However, opposites can attract/people can change and heal. Or, they can choose to rule the world. My character was good/neutral on my playthrough and Astarion and I were at max affinity with him being in my party from beginning to end. I did persuade him to 'do the right thing' at times, like not killing his kin at one point, and at other times we did what astarion wanted to do, like kill the monster hunter or ascend. I didn't do goblin-route, I didn't eat tadpoles, and I refused to let Astarion eat them when he asked for one. At times, I was his psudo-conscience, at times he did outright disagree with me, and at times I was on board with what astarion wanted to do. It was a partnership and not a 'me leading him around on a leash and ordering him to be good' and I really liked it and we were at - I stress - max affinity with him never being left out of my party. I didn't even want to deny him ascention, I wanted him to be happy, I also didn't think letting all those spawn go could lead to anything good after he himself mentioned that, I was just simultaniously horrified with how he had to go about getting it and I think that implementation of choice was really well done. But if Larian's answer to all of this - to Astarion's character and why there is no conclusion - is, in the end, 'well, this is the conclusion, he didn't mean any of it and he was just using you to suit himself', that's sort of where I draw the line. Because there is no indication in-game that after the point he re-confesses to you (which was amazingly done, bravo) that's the case in the slightest and if it is so, then he isn't a romance option. A conquest is not a romance. You can't call him a romance option if no matter what you do he won't feel romantically towards you, that doesn't make any sense.

Besides just making me tremendously sad, that *is* a character breaking explaination IMO. While in the beginning of the game there are insight checks for you to understand he's not being serious with you, and he even teases you about saying 'I love you' so flipantly, after he reconfesses to you Astarion is extremely upfront with how he felt towards you in the beginning/how he used to operate. And when you meet the people he used to do that to, you can say to him 'don't run from this: if we had met at a different time, you would have killed me' and he says he would have, but he also expresses discomfort in that and relief that you *didn't* meet in those circumstances. He is constantly telling the PC he is confused by you, he doesn't know what to do with you or what you are to him, just that you're special. That you're important to him. And it feels genuine in a way he didn't at the beginning of the game. It's easy to tell at the start he's a bluster and no sincerity because Larian did a really good job of conveying their characters in this game, but if Larian really is saying that after that he was just upping his game, that's... an extremely disheartening slap in the face and IMO pretty cruel. (Maybe that's taking it too far, but if that were the case, idk.)

In the end, I would be highly surprised if that kind of cop-out answer was the explaination. As far as I'm concerned, mischaracterization isn't the issue here. Even in what we have now, Astarion as a character has logic, rhythm. He's someone you can learn about and know. When speaking to the 'dryad' at the circus, I knew what answers to choose that were the truth to their questions. I also knew Astarion enough to know what to actually say. And to me that's special, to have a character so full of understandable personality. He isn't a character I would call 'cuddly' obviously, but he was sweet in his way and acquiescing to a point when I wanted to do something good. I felt that power to disagree that larian promised in little ways that I never really feel like I've gotten in other games that have comparable compainion systems. He didn't *always* 'disapprove' just because you disagreed, just when he really didn't like what you were doing. As I said, potentially, I don't think that Astarion and PC's relationship would or should just 'be fine' if you don't let him ascend/outright deny him. I completely agree with that determination. When Astarion pleaded with me to help him I could feel that if I refused something was over, something was broken. And watching the aftermath of that 'no' is just... Larian did such a good job. Kudos. Seriously. BUT, I also disagree that he would just outright abandon you in *every* circumstance of that 'no' (maybe in the aftermath he does always leave, but not permanently and returns to you after a few short rests to indicate him figuring stuff out, then he comes back and confronts you). I also disagree that in his ascention when he devolves into ravenously lusting for power, that's just the end of the discussion. Even in-game it feels like there is more, or should be more, or was more at one point. Hell, even companions mention his new attitude and you can say 'it's still our Astarion - our friend' and such. The framework is all right there!! Redemption arch, acceptance of this new normal or even just liking how Astarion is now, no matter what there should be a conclusion. And there isn't. Even if you really just want to be his pet as is avalible, there needs to be more than there is. Astarion mentions, for instance, he doesn't really 'get' all his true powers yet. Maybe there is a quest where you go around figuring that all out? And that quest can serve as the framework for either having him stay that way or have a redeption arch or you killing him or what have you? It could even work as a quest frame if you broke up with him for that route, or I can even see it being a means for healing if you refused him ascention and he essencially becomes dispondant and obsesssed with it? I can even see that being an eplougue quest or something? Maybe there's a quest line where you can possibly help him find a cure too. (Although I don't know if I'd personally do it, it could be a fun choice especially if you plan on getting rid of the tadpols because if you didn't let him ascend what is he supposed to do?). Idk. Maybe that's all stupid. You get what I'm saying though.

And lastly, finally, a potential plot disrepancy? In the beginning of the game Astarion tells you that for a spawn to become a vampire they have to drink their master's blood, but no master would ever let this happen because competition reasons. However, at the end of the game if you let him turn you he says he'll let you drink his blood, but also talks about you like you'll be a spawn? Am I misunderstanding something? If someone could clear this up that would be great.

Anyway. Anyway. I'm done now. If you made it this far, thanks for taking the time. I just have a lot of ideas about Astarion + just the plot in general floating around in my brain. It's honestly so well done, I wouldn't have spent so long writing this if I didn't love it. There are just still things that feel like missed potential for me. Things that could have happened, options I wish were available, that sort of thing. But in the end, I know I'll probably have to just content myself with writing out different conclusions to the endings for myself, and that's not such a terrible thing. Just a little disappointing, because Larian has definitly proven themselves, in my eyes, to be masterful, and I really wish I could see it from them because they will most definitly blow my stupid little head cannons out of the water. They are the ones behind such a character after all.

(also, just fyi, if you and he break it off, his conversation thing bugs to where it doesn't go into a 'cut scene' type thing when you speak with him and just shows the 'why are you bothering me' text stuff at the bottom of the screen, + the quest 'decide what to do about Cazador' never went away even after we killed him. Several quests bugged like that for me throughout the game, actually. Bug stuff probably doesn't belong here but I just thought I'd mention it.)

There was no dagger throwing. My character talked Astarion down - Astarion went all stabby stabby on Cazador - then we left after some conversation with the other spawn. Then there was a very nice conversation back at camp. That was it.

Can someone tell me if I can follow Laezel to her journey like I Follow Morrigan into the mirror in DAO? If I can't that what is the meaning of romance? For heartbreaking at last minute? I will be so mad.

I can't be the only one who felt like the Gortash and Orin fights were a lot less epic than the one against Thorm right? After the end of act II I was expecting facing them down to be on a similar caliber but their fights felt kinda just like a regular fight, or a mini boss fight like Cazador's. Idk I just expected it to be a lot more than it was.