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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2023
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2. There was a dialogue in EA, I don't remember him at the release, where we were wondering if he was comfortable in the camp and he says he misses his books Tav replies that he finds books all the time. This is definitely still in the game. Becomes available after the tiefling party. Yeah, it is, I remeber it. Sadly, we only speak about books and you can't give him any. Would be nice to have an option to present him book or to have a quest from him to bring specific book. Or to bring him with Gale to store in Baldur's Gate (since Gale is also a bookworm) and have an extra dialogue. It's more likely that the author had a clear vision for Halsin's journey throughout ACT 1-2 and spent a considerable about of time perfecting that vision (with the help of editors, sensitivity readers etc). Then they realized people had fallen in love with the character and decided to write more for him. Here comes the problem.
These late additions were to be added to an already established character, and due to time constraints and a tight schedule (where the author probably also had A LOT of other things to write), Halsin's character didn't get enough working time, and not enough editor time to really match his earlier parts to the new ones. Hence, the discrepancy between ACT 1-2 Halsin and the guy in ACT 3. Halsin in ACT 3 is one big contradiction to the character we got to know in ACT 1-2 and that makes him hard to get a grip of. And I fail to see how THAT was a conscious decision from the writer. I strongly believe that this for the most part is due to rushed writing. Yes! Not enough time is, I'm pretty sure, was the core problem why his romance ended up being so clumsy and has no logical ending. So let's hope for the best. Hope is what we have now.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Didn't remember the line about books, but now that you mention it, something feels familiar about it. However, having him say that is somehow very sweet and I wish it had been left in together with the option to actually gift him books. Especially in ACT 3 when he struggles with the city. Yes, I sent all the books I found to the camp. But the books theme has not been developed despite the potential. Tav and Halsin could discuss what they had read. I actually was putting anything worth reading in Halsin's inventory hoping it would be like a gift-dialogue trigger to happen but obviously nothing happens. I guess I took it seriously as a gift hint.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Hi all, I am just going to leave this here as my final entry in the hopes it will shed some light on why Halsin is problematic, and that Larian reads it. I understand that this is a very personal experience, and therefor this despiction can only be applied to me, but I think it is valid for this topic. I have loved this game and still do. Throughout EA I have asked Halsin to become a romance, and this game has given me a safe space, where I could stuggle through my son nearly dying, abuse, being extremely sick and being suicidal.
When Halsin was announced as a romance, I was beyond happy. But, Halsin has become so triggering for me that I have now lost my one safe place. I'll give you some context why: TRIGGER WARNING My ex was a CSA victim, and I had to hold him at night when reminders of sex made it trigger. We worked on it for ten years, and then he no longer wanted to be with me because in his mind I had become linked to that trauma because of helping him through it.
And then I have a current partner, who is very sexual active and I have trouble being... interested by it.
So Halsin triggered a bunch of things at once in addition to me also being a CSA victim, by fellow classmates who didn't take no for an answer.
Halsin commenting on rape as being "A fond memory" was deeply disturbing as that is exactly what I was told by the teachers at the time.
Halsin withholding affection unless you agree to the ultimatum of his romance, is also horrible. When you turn him down, he sounds entitled because "Truly? You attended to me with the care of a lover and not a friend". And then he flirts with your romance when you reject him.
Halsin's attitude to Tav claiming to be raped by Mizora, is inaction and "if you need to talk".
His depiction of relationship anarchy is incorrect, because he is unwilling to compromise and take input from Tav. It is a toxic representation of a relationship attitude I myself practice. As a result of all these thing combined, I have now had to delete my character, distance myself from communities I have felt safe in, as I am having axiety attacks and nightmares as a result. I love Halsin, and you did so much good with him. But you turned him into a nightmare for me personally, that made an entire lifetime of struggles and hardship even more unbearable. It is just a game, but it was a safe space I depended on to deal with all my real life struggles. I wish Larian the best, as I do all you fans <3
Last edited by Cowoline; 06/10/23 04:39 PM.
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Bard of Suzail
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Bard of Suzail
Joined: Oct 2020
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Cowoline, thank you for sharing and sorry for what you are going through.
To the rest of the community, this is bringing up some difficult topics and could quickly devolve into a real mess. Know that we, the Moderators, are watching this and if this gets out of control we will shut this down. If we can keep this conversation civil and constructive, it will be better for everyone.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Sorry to hear this, Cowoline! Wishing lots of good things to come into your life!
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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I'm really sorry, Cowoline. I totally understand, that in your situation, Halsin acting as he is, is traumatic. I said it before, his characterisation in act 3 is a mess and extremely toxic and if he triggers real life trauma it is even worse. In the game are a lot of topics, that are difficult to handle like Astarions abuse through his master, Shadowhearts brainwashing, Karlachs traumatic experience in hell. Kids loosing their parents.
I think in most cases, those topics are handled very well, but somehow, they botched it with Halsin.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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I wonder if the person who wrote Act 3 Halsin stuff also wrote the drow twins, because that scene can also get pretty uncomfortable with no way out.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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This is brave and important and several of us have tried to make everyone realize that there are more things in this world involved here.
It shouldn't take someone having to bare their own pain so openly to make you understand that we are concerned about real people and victims here!
Why do I sound like a broken record about abuse and toxic attitudes in every thread here - because it f****** matters!
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Thank you for sharing, Cowoline, and I'm sorry for what you're going through. Know that you're not alone. And it saddens me to hear that a once safe place for you no longer can be seen as such. You've been a voice of reason in an important discussion on this sensitive topic, and all I can hope is that Larian listens and makes necessary changes so that you, and more with you, feel comfortable returning to this wonderful game. <3
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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In the midst of this chaos in the debate, Cowoline always tried to support everyone here. I hope that in real life you will be fine in the end. You really are a wonderful person
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2023
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Cowoline, I'm sending you a virtual hug and wishing you only good! Thank you very much for your comments, ideas, criticism.
Games are for most of us are a type of safe space, a place where we can forget of our struggles (big or small).
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2023
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Cowaline, thank you. I fully understand where you're coming from, and I thank you and this thread for warning me before I got involved with Halsin. I wish you the very best and a quick recovery.
My current "resist" Dark Urge playthrough is my canon, but unfortunately I'm just going to have to have her slip up and kill Halsin right off for the sake of my own mental health.
Once again, I hope modders pick up the torch as they did with the original BG games and make Halsin the best he could be for EVERYONE.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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Thank you for sharing your story, Cowaline. I'm so sorry you went through all this. But it's very brave and important that you shared what happened, because I suspect there are more people out there who have a similar experience with Halsin opening up wounds from their real life.
When you get with Halsin, you think you're going to have a humble, kind-hearted and wise man in him. There's no reason to suspect otherwise. If he shared his story about the underdark at camp, with you alone (and they left out the nostalgia he somehow seems to feel, which makes no sense), it would have been handled a lot better.
As a RA, I also share your opinion about the representation. It's just bad. And his demands don't even make sense for his character. You would expect him to be self-aware. Also the fact that he doesn't want to use the word relationship because it's too civilized. It makes his character regress to a selfish teenager, who is too cool for school. Yet there is no foreshadowing that this is what the player will get into with him.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Dec 2020
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Thank you, Cowoline, for standing as representation in this. It is hard, it brings up old feelings, but just know that you are not alone and sharing matters.
I have not been as vocal in this issue, since I do not want to claim inclusion in the communities, but seeing the way poly, RA, and SA victims are represented in Act 3 Halsin strikes a chord in me.
As an autistic woman, many of the emotional coercion tactics shown by late-game Halsin were used against me from a young age to take advantage of my cognitive limitations. Additionally, poor representation such as this have continually reinforced harmful societal misconceptions around all facets of my identity - I can't tell you how often I have been told I don't "seem autistic," as if the label somehow exists without the living person within it.
As a strong proponent of inclusion and someone who understands the impact of representation, I am watching. How Larian chooses to resolve the problematic writing that was released in this character is going to affect my view of their claims of inclusion going forward. At this point, they claim to support player-sexuality or unbending character sexual identity in an uneven way - I am left with the unmistakable conclusion that they have fetishized the communities represented by Halsin's character in blatant opposition to the focus on diversity they claim.
Inclusivity requires nuance. Human interactions require two way communication. Equal power dynamics require compromise.
I truly want to believe that a company who could bring us the beautiful games they've created is willing to own it when a flaw as impactful as this got past them. They know better, they need to do better.
Last edited by AddyJenkins; 06/10/23 10:47 PM. Reason: Wording fixed
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Thank you all so much for your support and kind words. I hope, this is not seen as a cry for attention, but to give a voice to things that can be difficult to comprehend.
You are all lovely people and I am certain you are all speaking from a place of good intentions, even when we don't agree. I hope Halsin's romance in time will be created with variety like the other romances.
I have deleted my character/save game and discontinued my fic for now. I hope that at some point these issues with Halsin will be addressed.
I just realised something, and wrote this to sort of express it:
Zalia (my character who romanced Halsin) to Halsin:
My dearest Halsin,
I am sorry for writing like this to you, but I was concerned that if I did so in person I would not get everything of my chest. Things that I have been supressing and have gone unsaid for too long. I also hope that by me doing it this way, it will give you the opportunity to reflect on what I am trying to say, without it feeling like I am attacking you, because that couldn't be further from my intent.
As time passes I am becoming more concerned with the fact that you are not in love with me, but with how I make you feel. I do love you, but the restrictions you are proposing on what we could be would leave me walking on eggshells around you. I would not be able to express my thoughts, because they might make you feel chained. I would not be able to dream of a future, or make any sort of plans with you, because you refuse to debate them. Even less so commit. My wishes would have to be kept quiet at all times to accommodate your wishes alone. Being with you under these terms would limit my independence and silence my voice. What you propose as freedom for us both, would in reality be a prison for me.
To me, loving you means accepting you as the individual you are, and always respect your agency above all. But loving you also means being honest about what consequences your behaviour might have, so that you are not taken by surprise if something just happens. Loving you means being able to express my opinion, but giving you the choice of what to do with it. And loving you means accepting your input as an expression of love, not hostility, listening to it as objectively as I can, and being able to listen and compromise when necessary. Being romantically involved with you, would only be gratifying for me if you are a partner not just a lover. My confidant that I can turn to in need, my friend who I can laugh and share my troubles with, a stable part of my life that I can rely on when everything else goes to the Hells. Loving you is more than being your lover, and is the encompassing of many types of relationships on equal footing.
But more than anything else, I want to respect you for who you are, because who you are is the man I fell in love with. This real person, who I adore and not a fantasy I created in my head.
I will always be here for you, but I would like you to reflect on your relationship as I have. And come to terms with what loving me means to you, and if you can ever truly be provided the freedom you require without compromising us both.
I love you dearly.
With all my heart,
Zalia
Last edited by Cowoline; 07/10/23 11:05 AM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I would love it, if we actually had a way to help Halsin through the following, because after what has been 200 -250 years Halsin is still showing clear signs of unhealed trauma with no actual recorvery, despite what the game seems to insinuate. Warning: Wall of text Hypersexuality, also known as compulsive sexual behavior or hypersexual disorder, can sometimes manifest as a response to trauma, although it is essential to note that not everyone who experiences trauma will develop hypersexuality as a response. Hypersexuality refers to an excessive or intense preoccupation with sexual thoughts, fantasies, urges, or behaviors. When it occurs as a response to trauma, several factors may be at play:
Coping Mechanism: Some individuals may turn to hypersexuality as a way to cope with the emotional pain, distress, or numbness caused by trauma. Engaging in sexual behaviors may provide a temporary escape from overwhelming emotions or traumatic memories.
Control and Empowerment: For some survivors of trauma, engaging in hypersexual behaviors can be a way to regain a sense of control and empowerment over their bodies and experiences. It may serve as a means of asserting control in a domain where they feel they have agency.
Self-Destructive Behavior: Hypersexuality can also be self-destructive in nature. Some individuals may engage in risky or unsafe sexual behaviors as a response to trauma, potentially putting themselves at risk for further harm.
Dissociation: Trauma can lead to dissociative experiences, where individuals may feel disconnected from their thoughts, feelings, or surroundings. Hypersexuality may be a way to dissociate from the emotional pain associated with the trauma.
Seeking Validation or Love: Trauma can disrupt an individual's sense of self-worth and self-esteem. Some individuals may seek validation, love, or a sense of worthiness through sexual encounters or relationships.
Avoidance of Emotional Pain: Similar to hyposexuality, hypersexuality can also be a way to avoid or numb emotional pain. By engaging in constant sexual activity or preoccupation, individuals may be trying to distract themselves from their traumatic experiences.
It's important to recognize that hypersexuality as a response to trauma can have negative consequences, both for the individual experiencing it and for their relationships and overall well-being. It can lead to feelings of guilt, shame, and further emotional distress. Additionally, it may interfere with an individual's ability to form healthy and fulfilling intimate relationships.
Seeking Validation: Individuals with attachment issues may seek validation, acceptance, and love through sexual encounters or relationships. Hypersexuality can become a way to gain a temporary sense of belonging or significance.
Avoiding Emotional Intimacy: Attachment issues often involve a fear of emotional intimacy or a reluctance to trust others. Hypersexuality can serve as a way to avoid the vulnerability that comes with emotional closeness, as it focuses on physical rather than emotional connection.
Self-Worth and Identity: Attachment issues can negatively impact self-esteem and self-worth. Hypersexuality may be used to boost one's self-esteem temporarily, as it provides a sense of being desired or wanted, even if only for physical reasons.
Repetition of Patterns: In some cases, attachment issues stemming from early relationships with caregivers may lead to patterns of seeking out unhealthy or exploitative relationships. Hypersexuality can perpetuate these patterns, as individuals may engage in risky or unfulfilling sexual encounters.
Conflict and Strain: The combination of hypersexuality and attachment issues can result in conflicts and strains in intimate relationships. Partners may feel disconnected, hurt, or overwhelmed by the intensity of sexual behaviors, leading to relationship difficulties.
Treatment for hypersexuality as a response to trauma typically involves a trauma-informed therapeutic approach. This may include cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT), dialectical behavior therapy (DBT), or other forms of psychotherapy. The goal is to address the underlying trauma, provide coping strategies, and help individuals regain control over their sexual behaviors in a healthier and more balanced way.
If you or someone you know is experiencing hypersexuality as a response to trauma or struggling with any trauma-related issues, seeking help from a qualified mental health professional is crucial to address these concerns and work towards healing and recovery.
On the basis of this, it is my interpretation that Halsin isn't demonstrating health relationship anarchy, but severe attachment issues combined with unhealed C-PTSD. This should not be referred to as a "fond memory" and be used as a way of dismissing a player, who when asks him about a relationship is borderline mocked for implication.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Yes, it sure checks a lot of boxes when it comes to Halsin. If you take everything about him in to account here, it looks like a very clear case of unhealed trauma. Which in a sense could have made for a nice character arc and a journey towards healing. If it had been handled properly, that is. One cannot just throw a bunch of trauma onto a character like this and then leave it there in a way that's not only dismissive of actual victims, but also presented as just a joke to laugh at. None of this is anything to laugh about, and Larian should have known that.
Give Halsin the same treatment as Astarion and really deal with his issues, or preferably, just remove all of this and give us this one mature and wise man with a healthy view on sex and consent who doesn't have a massive bag of SA to deal with.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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Give Halsin the same treatment as Astarion Careful what you wish for, or Halsin will get an ending scene that turns him into a joke anyway.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Give Halsin the same treatment as Astarion Careful what you wish for, or Halsin will get an ending scene that turns him into a joke anyway. Good point. Don't want that.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Thank you for sharing, Cowoline. I'm sorry for what you've been going through. It really shows how important it is to handle such topics with care, especially in an interactive medium. Yes, it sure checks a lot of boxes when it comes to Halsin. If you take everything about him in to account here, it looks like a very clear case of unhealed trauma. Which in a sense could have made for a nice character arc and a journey towards healing. If it had been handled properly, that is. One cannot just throw a bunch of trauma onto a character like this and then leave it there in a way that's not only dismissive of actual victims, but also presented as just a joke to laugh at. None of this is anything to laugh about, and Larian should have known that.
Give Halsin the same treatment as Astarion and really deal with his issues, or preferably, just remove all of this and give us this one mature and wise man with a healthy view on sex and consent who doesn't have a massive bag of SA to deal with. Well said. I agree that their best course of action would be to just cut this part from his background. Beside the fact that this is a redundant storyline within the game, it would take quite a lot of resources to make this right. Why couldn't we just get one wholesome, good-aligned character? Halsin Act 1 and 2 fills that gap quite nicely and then it all falls apart in Act 3. What I find even worse with the drow twins scene is that he drops this on us after the act, so we have no chance to back out in time because this obviously is a bad idea. If I had known this beforehand, I would never have gone through with it. Instead, I felt like a crappy partner who did not stop their loved one in time from hurting himself. Even worse, I was involved in it.
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