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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: May 2021
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I think the only way I'll be able to stomach even experiencing Halsin's "romance" at all, will be in my druid playthrough where she'll be romancing the Dream Visitor/ officially. He's just too all over the place and disappointing for a priority romance playthrough. Especially so when my desire to play BG3 lessens the further I get into it and the more I think on everything.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Im really torn on wether or not I want to solomance him next playthrough.
On the one hand what hes got going, it goes very well. I want to hear him say those stupid empty sweet nothings. Maybe going in prepared for the bullshit might help lessen the blow.
Im holding out some hope for some sort of resolution though. Someone in the SH thread mentioned only 1/3 of steam players even made it to act 3. If Halsin is indeed popular as someone else here said, then people are eventually gonna see the bullshit, anyone who solomanced him will get his ending; I dont imagine this going well but it depends on how many people even get there, and how many of those get upset enough about it to speak up.
Last edited by AmayaTenjo; 17/10/23 11:24 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2023
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I think the only way I'll be able to stomach even experiencing Halsin's "romance" at all, will be in my druid playthrough where she'll be romancing the Dream Visitor/ officially. He's just too all over the place and disappointing for a priority romance playthrough. Especially so when my desire to play BG3 lessens the further I get into it and the more I think on everything. This is the first I've heard that you can romance the Guardian. (I've never made it past the Underdark because I have severe altitis.) Is it a true romance or a truncated one? (Or a terrible one like Halsin?)
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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Since someone(s) foolishly asked, here's my IMHO on what they were trying to do with Halsin (collapsed for length). It's not an analysis of his character as we currently have it, just an exploration of the thought processes which I think got us here:
Preamble - I think Larian is trying to do several things, in general: make good games; please their fans; and keep within their budgets and deadlines. Not necessarily in that order, and the order is probably subject to change.
So! About three years ago now, Larian released BG3 into Early Access. Some time after that, they realized Halsin was getting a lot of positive attention from their fanbase. Some time after that, the green light was given to turn him into a companion and love interest. At this point I think they had several problems to deal with:
* Problem #1 - his personal story. Most likely his arc had already been written, recorded and basically completed. (My guess is that he originally didn't leave Act II/the shadow-cursed lands at all, except maybe to show up as an ally in the final battle.) It now needed to be expanded. Somehow.
* Problem #2 - his romance. They seemingly had a blank slate - nothing about his romantic background was established in Early Access - but they also had a rather complicated romance system going on between the various Origin characters/Tav/etc. They needed to figure out how he'd fit into it. I assume that Minthara has a similar problem over on her romance track, but I don't know how they dealt with it; I'll focus on Halsin.
* Problem #3 - as a druid, he's almost immediately redundant with Jaheira, class wise. Not much wiggle room here, it's an integral part of both their characters.
#3 is basically a gameplay problem and has a gameplay solution: Withers' ability to respec your companions into some other class entirely. Does it make sense as part of the story? Not a bit. It's just going to be shoved to the gameplay side of gameplay-story segregation while we continue forward. Problem #3 solved, more or less.
Problem #1, on the other hand, is almost purely a story problem. Halsin isn't infected - he has no built-in reason to join the quest for a cure (or world domination). Rewriting him to be infected would require a fair amount of resources. Is it worth it? Couldn't it just be that he's so attached to the party, or so determined to stop the Absolute, that he'll abandon the newly uncursed lands and journey on to Act III? Well, he's a good guy. The group did do a lot for him. Add a few lines about how grateful he is, and how well Thaniel is doing, and maybe it works. But then comes the next problem - Act III itself. There's no obvious thing for him to do; he was never meant to be here. Resources could be devoted to creating yet another personal quest for him, but it might just feel tacked on, and - crucially - resources are not infinite. There's still something else they're needed for, problem #2. So... maybe there's an opportunity here to solve two problems at once? Write a couple extra camp conversations, add some interjections in the open world, and instead of a half-baked new quest, concentrate the remaining resources on -
Problem #2. Hoo boy. The fans really want him! In all sorts of ways! But there's this massive mess of an Origin romance system slowly noodling its way along through the acts; only in Act III is one romance (possibly) left standing. Throwing extra noodles into the Act I/II mix might be a bad idea, but in Act III a little room opens up. Extra-pair copulations become easier to implement - a sex worker here, a devil there...
... and Halsin. The bear in the room. There's not enough time/money to give him the full romance an Origin character would get, but too much demand to just make him a one night stand. On top of that, if you do delay his big romance scene until Act III, many folks are going to get impatient and pursue someone else instead. From this perspective, the polyamory bit is brilliant. It solves a host of problems. He fits perfectly as a secondary partner who "joins" late, and having a free-wheeling sexual nature (ha) seems quite in character for a wood elf druid bear. Add a little flirtation to the earlier acts; explain how his "obsession" with the shadow curse has been an inhibition for many years; and then comes Act III, when he's suddenly liberated to start rediscovering the parts of himself which lay dormant for so long. His rejuvenation even mirrors that of the land around Moonrise. It all works beautifully.
Well, unless you wanted him as a primary/exclusive partner, in which case it abruptly stops working in spots. Or unless you didn't want him at all, and still find him poking around in your personal business. Then you start noticing more and more wonky bits - past abuse, boundary pushing, wild shape issues, reluctance to commit, etc. The rough edges of the solution are showing where there wasn't enough time or money or incentive or interest to sand them down. They even elbow their way into other characters, mostly Shadowheart.
Many players love what they got. Some definitely do not. As I've said, I think it almost worked - close enough that I can take the good, ignore the bad, and enjoy the game anyway (which is pretty much my approach to this game in general). Your mileage may vary.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Since someone(s) foolishly asked, here's my IMHO on what they were trying to do with Halsin (collapsed for length). It's not an analysis of his character as we currently have it, just an exploration of the thought processes which I think got us here:
Preamble - I think Larian is trying to do several things, in general: make good games; please their fans; and keep within their budgets and deadlines. Not necessarily in that order, and the order is probably subject to change.
So! About three years ago now, Larian released BG3 into Early Access. Some time after that, they realized Halsin was getting a lot of positive attention from their fanbase. Some time after that, the green light was given to turn him into a companion and love interest. At this point I think they had several problems to deal with:
* Problem #1 - his personal story. Most likely his arc had already been written, recorded and basically completed. (My guess is that he originally didn't leave Act II/the shadow-cursed lands at all, except maybe to show up as an ally in the final battle.) It now needed to be expanded. Somehow.
* Problem #2 - his romance. They seemingly had a blank slate - nothing about his romantic background was established in Early Access - but they also had a rather complicated romance system going on between the various Origin characters/Tav/etc. They needed to figure out how he'd fit into it. I assume that Minthara has a similar problem over on her romance track, but I don't know how they dealt with it; I'll focus on Halsin.
* Problem #3 - as a druid, he's almost immediately redundant with Jaheira, class wise. Not much wiggle room here, it's an integral part of both their characters.
#3 is basically a gameplay problem and has a gameplay solution: Withers' ability to respec your companions into some other class entirely. Does it make sense as part of the story? Not a bit. It's just going to be shoved to the gameplay side of gameplay-story segregation while we continue forward. Problem #3 solved, more or less.
Problem #1, on the other hand, is almost purely a story problem. Halsin isn't infected - he has no built-in reason to join the quest for a cure (or world domination). Rewriting him to be infected would require a fair amount of resources. Is it worth it? Couldn't it just be that he's so attached to the party, or so determined to stop the Absolute, that he'll abandon the newly uncursed lands and journey on to Act III? Well, he's a good guy. The group did do a lot for him. Add a few lines about how grateful he is, and how well Thaniel is doing, and maybe it works. But then comes the next problem - Act III itself. There's no obvious thing for him to do; he was never meant to be here. Resources could be devoted to creating yet another personal quest for him, but it might just feel tacked on, and - crucially - resources are not infinite. There's still something else they're needed for, problem #2. So... maybe there's an opportunity here to solve two problems at once? Write a couple extra camp conversations, add some interjections in the open world, and instead of a half-baked new quest, concentrate the remaining resources on -
Problem #2. Hoo boy. The fans really want him! In all sorts of ways! But there's this massive mess of an Origin romance system slowly noodling its way along through the acts; only in Act III is one romance (possibly) left standing. Throwing extra noodles into the Act I/II mix might be a bad idea, but in Act III a little room opens up. Extra-pair copulations become easier to implement - a sex worker here, a devil there...
... and Halsin. The bear in the room. There's not enough time/money to give him the full romance an Origin character would get, but too much demand to just make him a one night stand. On top of that, if you do delay his big romance scene until Act III, many folks are going to get impatient and pursue someone else instead. From this perspective, the polyamory bit is brilliant. It solves a host of problems. He fits perfectly as a secondary partner who "joins" late, and having a free-wheeling sexual nature (ha) seems quite in character for a wood elf druid bear. Add a little flirtation to the earlier acts; explain how his "obsession" with the shadow curse has been an inhibition for many years; and then comes Act III, when he's suddenly liberated to start rediscovering the parts of himself which lay dormant for so long. His rejuvenation even mirrors that of the land around Moonrise. It all works beautifully.
Well, unless you wanted him as a primary/exclusive partner, in which case it abruptly stops working in spots. Or unless you didn't want him at all, and still find him poking around in your personal business. Then you start noticing more and more wonky bits - past abuse, boundary pushing, wild shape issues, reluctance to commit, etc. The rough edges of the solution are showing where there wasn't enough time or money or incentive or interest to sand them down. They even elbow their way into other characters, mostly Shadowheart.
Many players love what they got. Some definitely do not. As I've said, I think it almost worked - close enough that I can take the good, ignore the bad, and enjoy the game anyway (which is pretty much my approach to this game in general). Your mileage may vary.
This is an EXCELLENT theory for how things ended up how they are. Certainly better articulated than I could've ever tried to explain my thoughts on it and probably kinder about it than I would be.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: May 2021
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I think the only way I'll be able to stomach even experiencing Halsin's "romance" at all, will be in my druid playthrough where she'll be romancing the Dream Visitor/ officially. He's just too all over the place and disappointing for a priority romance playthrough. Especially so when my desire to play BG3 lessens the further I get into it and the more I think on everything. This is the first I've heard that you can romance the Guardian. (I've never made it past the Underdark because I have severe altitis.) Is it a true romance or a truncated one? (Or a terrible one like Halsin?) I'll let you know when I find out! I actually don't know too much about their romance, other than it is possible - or at least, it's possible to express interest and to have some physical intimacy with them if you choose the proper dialogue. I haven't quite heard a huge uproar about the romantic aspect for them, so take from that as you will; may be that it isn't nearly as bad as some stuff like SH, Halsin, etc... or may be that people just don't care enough to talk about or pursue it. At this rate, though, I think anything is better than Halsin's "romance".
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Since someone(s) foolishly asked, here's my IMHO on what they were trying to do with Halsin (collapsed for length). It's not an analysis of his character as we currently have it, just an exploration of the thought processes which I think got us here:
Preamble - I think Larian is trying to do several things, in general: make good games; please their fans; and keep within their budgets and deadlines. Not necessarily in that order, and the order is probably subject to change.
So! About three years ago now, Larian released BG3 into Early Access. Some time after that, they realized Halsin was getting a lot of positive attention from their fanbase. Some time after that, the green light was given to turn him into a companion and love interest. At this point I think they had several problems to deal with:
* Problem #1 - his personal story. Most likely his arc had already been written, recorded and basically completed. (My guess is that he originally didn't leave Act II/the shadow-cursed lands at all, except maybe to show up as an ally in the final battle.) It now needed to be expanded. Somehow.
* Problem #2 - his romance. They seemingly had a blank slate - nothing about his romantic background was established in Early Access - but they also had a rather complicated romance system going on between the various Origin characters/Tav/etc. They needed to figure out how he'd fit into it. I assume that Minthara has a similar problem over on her romance track, but I don't know how they dealt with it; I'll focus on Halsin.
* Problem #3 - as a druid, he's almost immediately redundant with Jaheira, class wise. Not much wiggle room here, it's an integral part of both their characters.
#3 is basically a gameplay problem and has a gameplay solution: Withers' ability to respec your companions into some other class entirely. Does it make sense as part of the story? Not a bit. It's just going to be shoved to the gameplay side of gameplay-story segregation while we continue forward. Problem #3 solved, more or less.
Problem #1, on the other hand, is almost purely a story problem. Halsin isn't infected - he has no built-in reason to join the quest for a cure (or world domination). Rewriting him to be infected would require a fair amount of resources. Is it worth it? Couldn't it just be that he's so attached to the party, or so determined to stop the Absolute, that he'll abandon the newly uncursed lands and journey on to Act III? Well, he's a good guy. The group did do a lot for him. Add a few lines about how grateful he is, and how well Thaniel is doing, and maybe it works. But then comes the next problem - Act III itself. There's no obvious thing for him to do; he was never meant to be here. Resources could be devoted to creating yet another personal quest for him, but it might just feel tacked on, and - crucially - resources are not infinite. There's still something else they're needed for, problem #2. So... maybe there's an opportunity here to solve two problems at once? Write a couple extra camp conversations, add some interjections in the open world, and instead of a half-baked new quest, concentrate the remaining resources on -
Problem #2. Hoo boy. The fans really want him! In all sorts of ways! But there's this massive mess of an Origin romance system slowly noodling its way along through the acts; only in Act III is one romance (possibly) left standing. Throwing extra noodles into the Act I/II mix might be a bad idea, but in Act III a little room opens up. Extra-pair copulations become easier to implement - a sex worker here, a devil there...
... and Halsin. The bear in the room. There's not enough time/money to give him the full romance an Origin character would get, but too much demand to just make him a one night stand. On top of that, if you do delay his big romance scene until Act III, many folks are going to get impatient and pursue someone else instead. From this perspective, the polyamory bit is brilliant. It solves a host of problems. He fits perfectly as a secondary partner who "joins" late, and having a free-wheeling sexual nature (ha) seems quite in character for a wood elf druid bear. Add a little flirtation to the earlier acts; explain how his "obsession" with the shadow curse has been an inhibition for many years; and then comes Act III, when he's suddenly liberated to start rediscovering the parts of himself which lay dormant for so long. His rejuvenation even mirrors that of the land around Moonrise. It all works beautifully.
Well, unless you wanted him as a primary/exclusive partner, in which case it abruptly stops working in spots. Or unless you didn't want him at all, and still find him poking around in your personal business. Then you start noticing more and more wonky bits - past abuse, boundary pushing, wild shape issues, reluctance to commit, etc. The rough edges of the solution are showing where there wasn't enough time or money or incentive or interest to sand them down. They even elbow their way into other characters, mostly Shadowheart.
Many players love what they got. Some definitely do not. As I've said, I think it almost worked - close enough that I can take the good, ignore the bad, and enjoy the game anyway (which is pretty much my approach to this game in general). Your mileage may vary.
This all feels very spot on. Thank you for taking the time to post/write it all out. I think we all knew this, but its good and productive to see it all layed out. It does all come down to time/money. If they had delayed the game, I wonder what the ratio of dissapointment in a delayed release vs the reception of a better more rounded experience would have been. However, I feel like if they had enough time and money and resources to make the bear scene with Astarion...they could have done more with less, and done it better. There is a ton of unused ideas and dialogues, so the fact we got what we got with all its glaring problems is still a bit...shocking. There was panic, they knew a lot of people were horny for this guy, and they went with it. But thats the problem; they panicked and went straight for the sex appeal, instead of really listening to the feedback seriously, taking a good hard look at what they already had, and beefing it up. Because it seems to me that many of us LOVE what is there that does work. The fact that he is so deeply involved in the main plots for acts 1 and 2 helps. Honestly the anticipation and delay in his romance was something I think they really could have used to their advantage. Especially since they really do not need to add too much in acts 1 and 2. Some dialogue, a camp cutscene or two. I was already madly in love even with the little bit that is there now. I feel like Halsin doesnt need a lot of motivation to stay with us narratively; true hes not infected, but he made a promise to help us and we did just save his childhood home. Being dutiful and loyal it would make sense "You helped me, now I will help you" and would make sense if he sees you as good friend, or if hes developing feelings. I also have a feeling a good guy like him would want to save the world anyway. Hes found himself in a situation that has now become so much bigger than him, it would make sense hed want to help. Just like he wanted to help the refugees and orphans. Him not having much to do in act 3, again, could have worked to their advantage. He doesnt need a quest, just some cutscenes and some dialogue. Ive stated before there were implications in the dialogue that Halsin was starting to doubt himself, he also has nothing BUT the group now, so him finding something new to do with his life could be a narrative focus and makes sense given his current ending. He could also just be a pillar of support for Tav as well. I dont need to do anything for him at this point, I just want to get close to him. I think they put too much effort in the wrong things and it turned into this mess that we have. If its been 3 years since EA, so lets say they had 2 years to get Halsin up to speed...I really think they could have done it. If it was really such a huge issue of time and money, which Im sure were factors, I dont see why Halsin's writer (John?) got all excited about possible explicit fanart when Halsin's VA got uncomfortable recording a line. If they were under that much pressure to make Halsin work Im not sure that would have been on the dude's mind. It wouldnt be on mine if it was me, possible fanart is the last thing Id be thinking about if I was being pushed by a huge company to write in a full character last minute. So my question is, was it really a question of time and money? If its a question of narrative, how much rewriting for everything else did they REALLY have to do? Everything up to act 3 made perfect sense to me and I never questioned it. But Im also not particularly intelligent so that may be more of a reflection on me. I was also told that the whole romance thing was also a late addition to the game, so that might not be as developed as it could have been either, but I dont know that for sure. But hindsight is 20/20 I guess. All I can say is that the non monogamy stuff, the sex stuff, while an attempt to save this character, is what ultimately killed him.
Last edited by AmayaTenjo; 18/10/23 12:51 AM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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When I soloromanced him, I didn't really notice anything particular other than the ending that stood out to me in regards to him hitting on other companions. Did he hit on other companions when you soloromanced him? This only triggers when you romance other companion and you want to have a three way with him no? He didn't hit on anyone else when soloromanced. It was all my Tav and wonderful words and then just: "bye, gotta go, see you another day, maybe." Yes this is what I remember as well and the part where I have the most issue with. It's like telling someone all the sweetest words to get that person to be with you and then all of a sudden when you want to bounce out you tell them "bye, see you later or never". This comes across extremely manipulative and toxic.
Last edited by iloverainbow; 18/10/23 02:47 AM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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Since someone(s) foolishly asked, here's my IMHO on what they were trying to do with Halsin (collapsed for length). It's not an analysis of his character as we currently have it, just an exploration of the thought processes which I think got us here:
Preamble - I think Larian is trying to do several things, in general: make good games; please their fans; and keep within their budgets and deadlines. Not necessarily in that order, and the order is probably subject to change.
So! About three years ago now, Larian released BG3 into Early Access. Some time after that, they realized Halsin was getting a lot of positive attention from their fanbase. Some time after that, the green light was given to turn him into a companion and love interest. At this point I think they had several problems to deal with:
* Problem #1 - his personal story. Most likely his arc had already been written, recorded and basically completed. (My guess is that he originally didn't leave Act II/the shadow-cursed lands at all, except maybe to show up as an ally in the final battle.) It now needed to be expanded. Somehow.
* Problem #2 - his romance. They seemingly had a blank slate - nothing about his romantic background was established in Early Access - but they also had a rather complicated romance system going on between the various Origin characters/Tav/etc. They needed to figure out how he'd fit into it. I assume that Minthara has a similar problem over on her romance track, but I don't know how they dealt with it; I'll focus on Halsin.
* Problem #3 - as a druid, he's almost immediately redundant with Jaheira, class wise. Not much wiggle room here, it's an integral part of both their characters.
#3 is basically a gameplay problem and has a gameplay solution: Withers' ability to respec your companions into some other class entirely. Does it make sense as part of the story? Not a bit. It's just going to be shoved to the gameplay side of gameplay-story segregation while we continue forward. Problem #3 solved, more or less.
Problem #1, on the other hand, is almost purely a story problem. Halsin isn't infected - he has no built-in reason to join the quest for a cure (or world domination). Rewriting him to be infected would require a fair amount of resources. Is it worth it? Couldn't it just be that he's so attached to the party, or so determined to stop the Absolute, that he'll abandon the newly uncursed lands and journey on to Act III? Well, he's a good guy. The group did do a lot for him. Add a few lines about how grateful he is, and how well Thaniel is doing, and maybe it works. But then comes the next problem - Act III itself. There's no obvious thing for him to do; he was never meant to be here. Resources could be devoted to creating yet another personal quest for him, but it might just feel tacked on, and - crucially - resources are not infinite. There's still something else they're needed for, problem #2. So... maybe there's an opportunity here to solve two problems at once? Write a couple extra camp conversations, add some interjections in the open world, and instead of a half-baked new quest, concentrate the remaining resources on -
Problem #2. Hoo boy. The fans really want him! In all sorts of ways! But there's this massive mess of an Origin romance system slowly noodling its way along through the acts; only in Act III is one romance (possibly) left standing. Throwing extra noodles into the Act I/II mix might be a bad idea, but in Act III a little room opens up. Extra-pair copulations become easier to implement - a sex worker here, a devil there...
... and Halsin. The bear in the room. There's not enough time/money to give him the full romance an Origin character would get, but too much demand to just make him a one night stand. On top of that, if you do delay his big romance scene until Act III, many folks are going to get impatient and pursue someone else instead. From this perspective, the polyamory bit is brilliant. It solves a host of problems. He fits perfectly as a secondary partner who "joins" late, and having a free-wheeling sexual nature (ha) seems quite in character for a wood elf druid bear. Add a little flirtation to the earlier acts; explain how his "obsession" with the shadow curse has been an inhibition for many years; and then comes Act III, when he's suddenly liberated to start rediscovering the parts of himself which lay dormant for so long. His rejuvenation even mirrors that of the land around Moonrise. It all works beautifully.
Well, unless you wanted him as a primary/exclusive partner, in which case it abruptly stops working in spots. Or unless you didn't want him at all, and still find him poking around in your personal business. Then you start noticing more and more wonky bits - past abuse, boundary pushing, wild shape issues, reluctance to commit, etc. The rough edges of the solution are showing where there wasn't enough time or money or incentive or interest to sand them down. They even elbow their way into other characters, mostly Shadowheart.
Many players love what they got. Some definitely do not. As I've said, I think it almost worked - close enough that I can take the good, ignore the bad, and enjoy the game anyway (which is pretty much my approach to this game in general). Your mileage may vary.
Very good thinking and well written! I kinda had the same feeling. The "main story Halsin" seems more polished to me, really well written, mostly consistent and showing his character traits. Then we have the "rest of the game Halsin" who really just has one thing to offer: his sexuality. I felt like he was written way too late, within a strict time window (a really short one) and to cover that up, they tried to turn things around and use him for marketing. Like you said, they knew they couldn't make a complete deep romance in the given timeframe, so they went for the more "horny" version, that offered lot of marketing potential. And let's be honest, most gaming portals - at least in Germany - have been full of BG3 bear news, so I'd call that success.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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I think the only way I'll be able to stomach even experiencing Halsin's "romance" at all, will be in my druid playthrough where she'll be romancing the Dream Visitor/ officially. He's just too all over the place and disappointing for a priority romance playthrough. Especially so when my desire to play BG3 lessens the further I get into it and the more I think on everything. This is the first I've heard that you can romance the Guardian. (I've never made it past the Underdark because I have severe altitis.) Is it a true romance or a truncated one? (Or a terrible one like Halsin?) This can't really be answered without spoilers and it seems you haven't finished the game yet. There is one romance scene that can play in different ways and it might or might not be to your taste depending on how you feel about some revelations. Your companions or if you have already a love interest will not comment on it or break up with you. There isn't rely more to it - you can mention it in a dialog with Raphael in act 3 if you like and depending on if you romanced or not might get a slightly different line if you betray the Guardian later. There is an option to stay together at the end but it don't think it is like you imagine and it has a certain condition to it. And no real epilog/romance cutscene, but when you select the correct dialog options you can stay together and talk a little about the future, but it isn't much. Still, I like it a lot and my Druid who was meant for Halsin was romancing the Guardian too and while I didn't qualify for the condition for the "stay together talk" it helps me to deal better with Halsins ending. I just have to imagine there are now two boyfriends waiting for my Durid - one in the city and one in Thaniels land. Regarding romancing Halsin without others LI: there are sweet lines and moments and I brought Halsin along for most of the quests, he often has to say at least a single line. His shadow druid talk feels a little strange but otherwise I think he does work - I didn't speak with the Drow twins too. I was a little unhappy with his relationship talk but the main issue for me if you only romance him is the ending with him.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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I think the only way I'll be able to stomach even experiencing Halsin's "romance" at all, will be in my druid playthrough where she'll be romancing the Dream Visitor/ officially. He's just too all over the place and disappointing for a priority romance playthrough. Especially so when my desire to play BG3 lessens the further I get into it and the more I think on everything. This is the first I've heard that you can romance the Guardian. (I've never made it past the Underdark because I have severe altitis.) Is it a true romance or a truncated one? (Or a terrible one like Halsin?) I'll let you know when I find out! I actually don't know too much about their romance, other than it is possible - or at least, it's possible to express interest and to have some physical intimacy with them if you choose the proper dialogue. I haven't quite heard a huge uproar about the romantic aspect for them, so take from that as you will; may be that it isn't nearly as bad as some stuff like SH, Halsin, etc... or may be that people just don't care enough to talk about or pursue it. At this rate, though, I think anything is better than Halsin's "romance". Only if you like to get spoiled about his (Guardian) romance (with end spoilers): You can either romance the Emperor in his true form or in Guardian form but I think his true form is better. It is rather tender and cute and there is additional dialog and better reaction of your character after waking up compared to have him in Guardian form.
After that you can mention it later to Raphael but not talk with your companions about it. And there is no break up with an existing other LI.
You can stay together, but only if your character becomes a mind flayer and you have to select dialog about your future that you want to stay in the city and then he will offer rebuilding the knights with him.
If you play solo without companions he will if you are not transformed tell you that he will miss you and that you have become important to him. But he will leave (also not stay far away, there is cut content of the epilogue where he would stay behind in the bushes to observe your character and reunited companions 6 months later). You don't get this talk if you have companions with you - I don't know why. I submited feedback for that too.
I still like the romance a lot even without turning. But it is not for everybodys taste.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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Since someone(s) foolishly asked, here's my IMHO on what they were trying to do with Halsin (collapsed for length). It's not an analysis of his character as we currently have it, just an exploration of the thought processes which I think got us here:
Preamble - I think Larian is trying to do several things, in general: make good games; please their fans; and keep within their budgets and deadlines. Not necessarily in that order, and the order is probably subject to change.
So! About three years ago now, Larian released BG3 into Early Access. Some time after that, they realized Halsin was getting a lot of positive attention from their fanbase. Some time after that, the green light was given to turn him into a companion and love interest. At this point I think they had several problems to deal with:
* Problem #1 - his personal story. Most likely his arc had already been written, recorded and basically completed. (My guess is that he originally didn't leave Act II/the shadow-cursed lands at all, except maybe to show up as an ally in the final battle.) It now needed to be expanded. Somehow.
* Problem #2 - his romance. They seemingly had a blank slate - nothing about his romantic background was established in Early Access - but they also had a rather complicated romance system going on between the various Origin characters/Tav/etc. They needed to figure out how he'd fit into it. I assume that Minthara has a similar problem over on her romance track, but I don't know how they dealt with it; I'll focus on Halsin.
* Problem #3 - as a druid, he's almost immediately redundant with Jaheira, class wise. Not much wiggle room here, it's an integral part of both their characters.
#3 is basically a gameplay problem and has a gameplay solution: Withers' ability to respec your companions into some other class entirely. Does it make sense as part of the story? Not a bit. It's just going to be shoved to the gameplay side of gameplay-story segregation while we continue forward. Problem #3 solved, more or less.
Problem #1, on the other hand, is almost purely a story problem. Halsin isn't infected - he has no built-in reason to join the quest for a cure (or world domination). Rewriting him to be infected would require a fair amount of resources. Is it worth it? Couldn't it just be that he's so attached to the party, or so determined to stop the Absolute, that he'll abandon the newly uncursed lands and journey on to Act III? Well, he's a good guy. The group did do a lot for him. Add a few lines about how grateful he is, and how well Thaniel is doing, and maybe it works. But then comes the next problem - Act III itself. There's no obvious thing for him to do; he was never meant to be here. Resources could be devoted to creating yet another personal quest for him, but it might just feel tacked on, and - crucially - resources are not infinite. There's still something else they're needed for, problem #2. So... maybe there's an opportunity here to solve two problems at once? Write a couple extra camp conversations, add some interjections in the open world, and instead of a half-baked new quest, concentrate the remaining resources on -
Problem #2. Hoo boy. The fans really want him! In all sorts of ways! But there's this massive mess of an Origin romance system slowly noodling its way along through the acts; only in Act III is one romance (possibly) left standing. Throwing extra noodles into the Act I/II mix might be a bad idea, but in Act III a little room opens up. Extra-pair copulations become easier to implement - a sex worker here, a devil there...
... and Halsin. The bear in the room. There's not enough time/money to give him the full romance an Origin character would get, but too much demand to just make him a one night stand. On top of that, if you do delay his big romance scene until Act III, many folks are going to get impatient and pursue someone else instead. From this perspective, the polyamory bit is brilliant. It solves a host of problems. He fits perfectly as a secondary partner who "joins" late, and having a free-wheeling sexual nature (ha) seems quite in character for a wood elf druid bear. Add a little flirtation to the earlier acts; explain how his "obsession" with the shadow curse has been an inhibition for many years; and then comes Act III, when he's suddenly liberated to start rediscovering the parts of himself which lay dormant for so long. His rejuvenation even mirrors that of the land around Moonrise. It all works beautifully.
Well, unless you wanted him as a primary/exclusive partner, in which case it abruptly stops working in spots. Or unless you didn't want him at all, and still find him poking around in your personal business. Then you start noticing more and more wonky bits - past abuse, boundary pushing, wild shape issues, reluctance to commit, etc. The rough edges of the solution are showing where there wasn't enough time or money or incentive or interest to sand them down. They even elbow their way into other characters, mostly Shadowheart.
Many players love what they got. Some definitely do not. As I've said, I think it almost worked - close enough that I can take the good, ignore the bad, and enjoy the game anyway (which is pretty much my approach to this game in general). Your mileage may vary.
This is a very good analysis. Thank you for writing that out. The result is also quite telling. We have people who like Halsin and people who don't like him. We have people who are monogamous and people who are poly/RA. And the funny thing is, they're not infighting. They're on the same side of this issue. That shows you that the writing and implementation has been done very poorly. Heck, I think even Halsin from act1&2 wouldn't even like Halsin from act3.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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The result is also quite telling. We have people who like Halsin and people who don't like him. We have people who are monogamous and people who are poly/RA. And the funny thing is, they're not infighting. They're on the same side of this issue.
That shows you that the writing and implementation has been done very poorly. And, from what I've heard, we have lot of people on TikTok who glorify him being a hot toy or a nice double-c*ck-surprise if combined with Astarion or they just use them for their own sexual fantasies. Its quite interesting to see, how the reactions to Halsin change based on the platform you are looking at.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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The result is also quite telling. We have people who like Halsin and people who don't like him. We have people who are monogamous and people who are poly/RA. And the funny thing is, they're not infighting. They're on the same side of this issue.
That shows you that the writing and implementation has been done very poorly. And, from what I've heard, we have lot of people on TikTok who glorify him being a hot toy or a nice double-c*ck-surprise if combined with Astarion or they just use them for their own sexual fantasies. Its quite interesting to see, how the reactions to Halsin change based on the platform you are looking at. I'll never take anyone on Tik Tok seriously. Anyway, I'm glad more people are finding out about this insanity. As long as this doesn't end up as a "Red Prince" situation, I'll be happy.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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So I guess the real question is, are they going to do anything at all and how much are they going to be willing to change.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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I'll never take anyone on Tik Tok seriously. Anyway, I'm glad more people are finding out about this insanity. As long as this doesn't end up as a "Red Prince" situation, I'll be happy. While I played DOS2 and I heard something about the Red Prince, I only used him once, playing Sebille, because someone said their romance is good. I think I stopped mid act 2, so I dodged that bullet it seems. So I guess the real question is, are they going to do anything at all and how much are they going to be willing to change. My hopes are small tbh. Mostly because people are not willing to admit they took a wrong path, but also because of the extra work needed. I mean, they got our money, why change anything? Especially with lots of positive comments on social media - and thats what counts the most these days, I'm afraid.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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My hopes are small tbh. Mostly because people are not willing to admit they took a wrong path, but also because of the extra work needed. I mean, they got our money, why change anything? Especially with lots of positive comments on social media - and thats what counts the most these days, I'm afraid. And now I am back into that heartbroken grieving feeling Poor Halsin
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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My hopes are small tbh. Mostly because people are not willing to admit they took a wrong path, but also because of the extra work needed. I mean, they got our money, why change anything? Especially with lots of positive comments on social media - and thats what counts the most these days, I'm afraid. And now I am back into that heartbroken grieving feeling Poor Halsin Lets not lose our hope completely. Larian changed character stuff with the first patches, patch #4 is at the doorstep it seems (it can already be found on steamdb) and if that also includes some stuff based on player feedback, we might get a better Halsin in the future.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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My hopes are small tbh. Mostly because people are not willing to admit they took a wrong path, but also because of the extra work needed. I mean, they got our money, why change anything? Especially with lots of positive comments on social media - and thats what counts the most these days, I'm afraid. And now I am back into that heartbroken grieving feeling Poor Halsin Lets not lose our hope completely. Larian changed character stuff with the first patches, patch #4 is at the doorstep it seems (it can already be found on steamdb) and if that also includes some stuff based on player feedback, we might get a better Halsin in the future. I keep switching between hope and despair. Ive gotten a bit more attached this character than is for my own good it seems. I love him T-T
Last edited by AmayaTenjo; 18/10/23 09:26 AM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Since someone(s) foolishly asked, here's my IMHO on what they were trying to do with Halsin (collapsed for length). It's not an analysis of his character as we currently have it, just an exploration of the thought processes which I think got us here:
Preamble - I think Larian is trying to do several things, in general: make good games; please their fans; and keep within their budgets and deadlines. Not necessarily in that order, and the order is probably subject to change.
So! About three years ago now, Larian released BG3 into Early Access. Some time after that, they realized Halsin was getting a lot of positive attention from their fanbase. Some time after that, the green light was given to turn him into a companion and love interest. At this point I think they had several problems to deal with:
* Problem #1 - his personal story. Most likely his arc had already been written, recorded and basically completed. (My guess is that he originally didn't leave Act II/the shadow-cursed lands at all, except maybe to show up as an ally in the final battle.) It now needed to be expanded. Somehow.
* Problem #2 - his romance. They seemingly had a blank slate - nothing about his romantic background was established in Early Access - but they also had a rather complicated romance system going on between the various Origin characters/Tav/etc. They needed to figure out how he'd fit into it. I assume that Minthara has a similar problem over on her romance track, but I don't know how they dealt with it; I'll focus on Halsin.
* Problem #3 - as a druid, he's almost immediately redundant with Jaheira, class wise. Not much wiggle room here, it's an integral part of both their characters.
#3 is basically a gameplay problem and has a gameplay solution: Withers' ability to respec your companions into some other class entirely. Does it make sense as part of the story? Not a bit. It's just going to be shoved to the gameplay side of gameplay-story segregation while we continue forward. Problem #3 solved, more or less.
Problem #1, on the other hand, is almost purely a story problem. Halsin isn't infected - he has no built-in reason to join the quest for a cure (or world domination). Rewriting him to be infected would require a fair amount of resources. Is it worth it? Couldn't it just be that he's so attached to the party, or so determined to stop the Absolute, that he'll abandon the newly uncursed lands and journey on to Act III? Well, he's a good guy. The group did do a lot for him. Add a few lines about how grateful he is, and how well Thaniel is doing, and maybe it works. But then comes the next problem - Act III itself. There's no obvious thing for him to do; he was never meant to be here. Resources could be devoted to creating yet another personal quest for him, but it might just feel tacked on, and - crucially - resources are not infinite. There's still something else they're needed for, problem #2. So... maybe there's an opportunity here to solve two problems at once? Write a couple extra camp conversations, add some interjections in the open world, and instead of a half-baked new quest, concentrate the remaining resources on -
Problem #2. Hoo boy. The fans really want him! In all sorts of ways! But there's this massive mess of an Origin romance system slowly noodling its way along through the acts; only in Act III is one romance (possibly) left standing. Throwing extra noodles into the Act I/II mix might be a bad idea, but in Act III a little room opens up. Extra-pair copulations become easier to implement - a sex worker here, a devil there...
... and Halsin. The bear in the room. There's not enough time/money to give him the full romance an Origin character would get, but too much demand to just make him a one night stand. On top of that, if you do delay his big romance scene until Act III, many folks are going to get impatient and pursue someone else instead. From this perspective, the polyamory bit is brilliant. It solves a host of problems. He fits perfectly as a secondary partner who "joins" late, and having a free-wheeling sexual nature (ha) seems quite in character for a wood elf druid bear. Add a little flirtation to the earlier acts; explain how his "obsession" with the shadow curse has been an inhibition for many years; and then comes Act III, when he's suddenly liberated to start rediscovering the parts of himself which lay dormant for so long. His rejuvenation even mirrors that of the land around Moonrise. It all works beautifully.
Well, unless you wanted him as a primary/exclusive partner, in which case it abruptly stops working in spots. Or unless you didn't want him at all, and still find him poking around in your personal business. Then you start noticing more and more wonky bits - past abuse, boundary pushing, wild shape issues, reluctance to commit, etc. The rough edges of the solution are showing where there wasn't enough time or money or incentive or interest to sand them down. They even elbow their way into other characters, mostly Shadowheart.
Many players love what they got. Some definitely do not. As I've said, I think it almost worked - close enough that I can take the good, ignore the bad, and enjoy the game anyway (which is pretty much my approach to this game in general). Your mileage may vary.
In fact, Halsin not needed in a group in act 3. In DAI the advisers worked well. They could get off with a variety of dialogues and comments. Scenes with a dog and other animals in our camp. It wasn't a problem. They could continue the topic with a serious, friendly man, who love books. A long beautiful romance for those who wish, or friendship for everyone else. But they went the way of garbage, do not justify the lack of time. People liked this character for a very specific reason. But they didn't give a damn about it for the sake of a hot scene with a bear. The people who asked for it wanted a good guy, but they didn't got it.... I don't see a time problem here. I see here the author's desire to talk about his fetish again and again.
Last edited by Laras; 18/10/23 10:30 AM.
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