Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Technical & Gameplay Problems Exploits: Multiclass System is Fundamentally broken

1 Level of wizard allows a sorcerer to bypass the spell restrictions on what spells a sorcerer is able to learn and cast and apply metamagic feats to.

There are lots of other issues with the multiclass system but that's probably the most serious one I have seen.

Shhh!!!

But...are there really any spells that are that good for this to be a real issue? Even without dual-classing, my sorceress can kill the Big Bads towards the end of the game in a single turn, like e.g. I just completely roflstomped in a single turn earlier today with my sorcess, with no other party member having attacked her yet.

So "combat isn't balanced properly either so we shouldn't fix anything" is basically the subtext of what you just said.

So, you mean that if you multiclass 1 level into wizard, that youcould only use those learned spell with the wizard spell slots, right?

No you can use them with sorcerer slots, however I believe the memorized spells still use INT and not CHA, so you just use it to memorize buffs.

Don't try and twist what I am saying. I specifically asked you a question, which you chose not to answer, so I'll ask again: what spells does that allow the sorcerer to access that would throw the game entirely out-of-balance?

Okay folks, let's keep it friendly please!

None really. You can't use any damage based ones because they need INT. You can memorize some of the buffs like shield / haste / blur / mirror image, but are you really going to waste spell slots casting the latter 2 on a sorc?

Gaseous Form / Fly? Wastes of spell slots, you can get fly as a storm sorcerer or draconic, or with tadpoles.

Globe of Invulnerability is probably the best one you can cast, but it uses your level 6 slot which should be being used for twinned chain lightning or disintegrate using your Sorc spells so they use CHA for attack rolls. I currently have 3 or 4 recharges on my level 6 slot per long rest too.

Oh you could use a wizard slot for counterspell I suppose, but if you got 11 sorc / 1 wiz you also sacrifice a feat right? Id rather have both Spell Sniper and War Caster than add a wizard level.

Oh, you seemed to be declaiming your own answer, so I figured it was rhetorical. And then you went on to tell me how amazing your sorcerer was and you one-shot Orin, which was supposedly a good fight. I read it as written, my mistake.

Next time maybe a paragraph break?

Anyway, nothing prevents you from having enough Charisma and Intelligence to use any spells you like to any capacity you like. Dumbledorf likes to pretend there are no ways to get your Int high enough to make them effective but he seems to be ignoring all the +1 to spellcasting attack items in game, the Warped Headband of Intellect and the fact that you can increase your ability scores in a number of ways without nerfing the rest of your build.

Shockingly he seems to have realized he maybe should have kept his mouth shut about this MASSIVE exploit that he has been using to ROFLstomp the game - hence his sudden disingenuous attempt to roll back his earlier comments.

Anyway, submitting this through the usual channels. This is insanely broken.

Yes exactly. you can cast the Wizard spells you learned, and you can learn any level spell you can cast as a Sorcerer - so you could have 2 levels in Wizard, learn haste from a scroll (level 3) and then you can cast that with a Sorcerer level 3 spell slot AND you can Twin the spell.

Totally broken.

Yeah, i meant how is supposed to work properly haha.

Hmm, i wonder if that´s on purpose or actually a bug, because with any other class you can use you current level spell slots, wich seems to be kind of shared between classes, with any of the spells of the classes you are multiclassing into. For example, a level 4 cleric/level 1 druid can use the higher level spell slots to cast druid level 1 spells upcasted.

There are 3 parts of this that are broken though.

1) A Wizard can only learn spells they can cast as a wizard - so a level 1-2 wizard would be limited to level 1 spells that they can learn.
2) You can't cast a Wizard spell with a Sorcerer spell slot - this is the only part you have contested.
3) You shouldn't be able to apply a metamagic feat to a Wizard spell that you learned.

So assuming you are right about 2, the first condition here should prevent you from learning spells above your wizard level - as it does when you are a pure Wizard. A level 1 Wizard cannot learn Level 2 spells. So we have a bug/exploit.

Oh and there is an additional Exploit that lets you keep Wizard spells you learned by leveling when you respec. Respeccing should wipe those spells as if you had not chosen them. In the case of - "well it's a spellbook" - this would be a prime example of why this is an exploit, because Sorcerers don't cast spells from spellbooks.

For reference:

PHB Pg 114, 2nd paragraph

“Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.”

PHB pg 164, spellcasting, 2nd paragraph

“Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1 st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As a 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can
be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.

I know how it should work according to PhB, what i´m saying that maybe Larian chose this approach instead of 2+ different spellbooks, and spell slots, between different casters, as a way to make it simpler.

I shouldn't have included the PHB stuff - just respond to this, it's what I was pointing out.

1) A Wizard can only learn spells they can cast as a wizard - so a level 1-2 wizard would be limited to level 1 spells that they can learn.
2) You can't cast a Wizard spell with a Sorcerer spell slot - this is the only part you have contested.
3) You shouldn't be able to apply a metamagic feat to a Wizard spell that you learned.

So assuming you are right about 2, then the first condition here should prevent you from learning spells above your wizard level - as it does when you are a pure Wizard. A level 1 Wizard cannot learn Level 2 spells. So we have a bug/exploit.

Larian kept it true to tabletop. the PHB stuff is little misleading. once you multiclass casters you throw out the wizard and sorcerer slots all together they go by the chart on page 165 of the PHB. Secondly you can learn spells of any level you can prepare since you have 6th lvl spell slots you can prepare 6th lvl spells. this is working as intended but i can see why some may think its a bug, its been this way since 5es launch what really changes the power of play is no hard limit on lvld spells a turn. in 5e which theyve based most of the design around if you quicken spell fireball you cant cast another spell that turn unless you have multiple action.

Additionally the rules state a wizard can prepare spells of any lvl that they have spell slots. Since they can prepare them they can then learn them.

PFFT! You need to maybe read the actual book. What a load of nonsense. We already quoted the relevant paragraphs that state explicitly that this is not at ok.

If you read page 165 it 100% backs me up on what I just said. The chart on page 165 is designed to *limit* the number of spells a player can have. Since you get more spells slots at a lower level than you get at higher level - it prevents a character from having too many spell slots because they have multiple casting classes.

you are not learning the spells on lvl up but rather writing them down into your book. since you have 6th lvl slots you can prepare 6th lvl spells meaning you can learn 6th lvl spells. Pg. 114 has the rules for copying wizard spells into your spell book all it cares about is if you can prepare the spells of that lvl and on the same page when it lists preparing spells it states that you can prepare any spell that you have slots to cast.