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member
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2023
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Initially, Balduran admits he created an illusion of a dream visitor for us (for each infected companion in fact) that would be acceptable and not considered as a threat.
But then, in the final battle, if sided with Orpheus he actually summons several dream visitors to fight against as. And they are not illusions, even if mind-controlled by him.
Now, magic and other shenanigans are ok, but still BG3 world has some rules. And these rules doesn't allow illithids, even as powerful as Emperor, to create living creatures with full gear out of thin air. Especially when he admitted at least twice they were just an illusion. And no explanation, no nothing, only one of the companions comments something like "oh, so they are not an illusion??" and that's it.
I understand that Emperor took the place of a character referred to as "Daisy" in Early Access. Daisy came to each origin character as their own unique person (Vlaakith, Cazador, Mystra, etc.) and tempted them to take the tadpole powers. Therefore, it's likely that siding against the Absolute and facing your nightmares/beloved atop the Elder Brain was likely a big part of the climax from early in the development process. When Daisy was scrapped very late in development, and the Emperor put in their place with a drastically different motivation and storyline, Larian was still too married to the concept of a dream visitor and an epic confrontation with them.
However, I do not believe such absurd leftovers should be left in the game as is. I would suggest to fix it, by actually separating Emperor and Dream visitors. Instead of dream visitors being some illusions and also some unexplained abominations during the final battle, they should be warriors (and you should be able to customize one for your character) enslaved and kidnapped by Emperor, players should be able to romance them and free them along with Orpheus if players want.
Successfully freeing them should add dream visitors to other allies that we can summon on the battlefield during the final battle.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Apr 2022
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Genuine question: How are we sure that they're not illusions? And if they aren't, why wouldn't the 'lore' fix just be to make them illusions?
Mechanically, they're not SO far removed from the Simulacrum spell to be a breach of D&D rules in principle. Sure, Simulacrum is usually copying a person, and a caster can't usually maintain more than one, but it's not tough to imagine those limiting factors being abridged for a more powerful creature.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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The purpose of the Dream Visitor is now entirely superfluous since they were cruelly retconned in favor of The Emperor. Their only purpose now is to facilitate a romance with The Emperor and nothing more. The romance, which, does not use the DV's appearance. Considering that the DV's purpose in EA vs. its purpose now is almost an entire 180 turn around from what it was meant to be, Larian will never change this. It stands as an embarrassingly sloppy left-over from EA that honestly should have been removed instead of gutted hollow like it is now.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 02/09/23 09:43 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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member
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2023
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Genuine question: How are we sure that they're not illusions? Maybe because they leave corpses? And if they aren't, why wouldn't the 'lore' fix just be to make them illusions? It would be simpler then to remove them entirely The purpose of the Dream Visitor is now entirely superfluous since they were cruelly retconned in favor of The Emperor. Their only purpose now is to facilitate a romance with The Emperor and nothing more. The romance, which, does not use the DV's appearance. Considering that the DV's purpose in EA vs. its purpose now is almost an entire 180 turn around from what it was meant to be, Larian will never change this. It stands as an embarrassingly sloppy left-over from EA that honestly should have been removed instead of gutted hollow like it is now. That's the point of this thread. There is no reason to leave everything in such embarrassingly disappointing state. And I still have some faith in Larian that they can change their game for the better. The fix I've proposed is simple enough, it would not require many changes, maybe one or 2 additional dialogues. No need to add a sex scene, romancing shouldn't be always about sex 
Last edited by Faust-RSI; 04/09/23 07:35 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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That's the point of this thread. There is no reason to leave everything in such embarrassingly disappointing state. An I still have some faith in Larian that they can change their game for the better. The fix I've proposed is simple enough, it would not require many changes, maybe one or 2 additional dialogues. No need to add a sex scene, romancing shouldn't be always about sex Yeah, I just ranted uninvited, sorry :V. I meant to say that since this was an intentional change to the DV, Larian won't ever rectify it. Their intent was to go with The Emperor and leave the DV as sloppy seconds from EA so we're kind of stuck with it.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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Would be nice if your suggestion can be implemented, I'm not against it, but not strongly for it either.
You can say that it's "disappointing" but that's highly subjective, for me it's fine. Definitely not bad as some make it out to be.
It's an artistic choice, one Larian has chosen to be, with all considerations they're subjected to.
My only critique to your retcon idea is that it's corny, as in cheap writing corny. I think it's better Dream Visitor is just part of somebody/something manipulate/bait to you. And it's extra funny because you create the bait for yourself.
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member
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2023
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^I agree that's a great troll, and I myself got trolled, but I would never create this thread if not for the final battle. I accept trolling and I am all for it, but I cannot accept poor writing.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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^I agree that's a great troll, and I myself got trolled, but I would never create this thread if not for the final battle. I accept trolling and I am all for it, but I cannot accept poor writing. About that final battle though, is it bad? or is it just you didn't like it? I know for sure, I didn't terribly like the way it executed. But mostly, my gripes is that you have to choose between you or orpheus to become squidward, despite
Gale ready to sacrifice himself
But, it's a plot hole, not a bad writing. It is important to convey to the player that the stake is high. You can't just waddle your way to fight what basically uber-God with steel and wits, you literally have to make a sacrifice, but it's just sucks that the sacrifice we make is a bit too limited.
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member
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2023
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Gale, Emperor, Orpheus and our choices are a whole different story and an off-topic here.
Taking this one element - the nonsense with dream visitors - from the final battle can't and won't fix those, as the whole story needs to be reconsidered for a proper fix. But it would at least fix this one problem with almost no cost.
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