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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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In Act 1 when you're talking to Duegar in Grymforge, Astarion will disapprove of you standing up for the Gnome slaves, which I think is entirely stupid. I don't care that he's meant to be the "evil" party member, he of all people should be able to empathize with the Gnomes.
Last edited by Olive Tree; 07/09/23 07:16 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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He's against risking your neck for someone else if you don't have to.
I don't want to think about why my eye is itching.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2020
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In one of the game dialogues he says it's not a problem someone like Cazador does what he does. It's a problem "he did this to ME" Astarion says. I think this explains a lot.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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In one of the game dialogues he says it's not a problem someone like Cazador does what he does. It's a problem "he did this to ME" Astarion says. That's Astarion! As evil as they come.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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Oh yes. Astarion is strikingly incapable of empathy right up until nearly the end of his personal quest, and even then, though he's quite shaken, it's only temporary. After his personal quest is resolved, he's capable of more clear-sightedness and self-reflection, but it takes a lot of effort to get there.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I didn't play a lot of EA, so I missed a lot of changed storylines. However, from reading older posts, Astarion's backstory changed. Apparently Astarion wasn't just a magistrate in Baldur's Gate 200 years ago. He was a corrupted magistrate who sold human/slaves to the vampires. He double crossed Cazador at some point and in retaliation, Cazador turned him into a spawn.
At some point, they changed his backstory to being saved from the Gur by Cazador (maybe to make him more likable than a slaver?), but they didn't change why he likes/doesn't like certain things. Like being mean, entertained by misfortune, or seeing anything wrong with owning slaves.
Last edited by Myrrh; 08/09/23 12:04 AM. Reason: Spoiler marking
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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I know about the backstory, but I don't think it's actually relevant (and I'm not sure it was ever incorporated into the game itself). He's not this way because of who he used to be before Cazador, a past he mostly doesn't remember. He's this way because of 200 years of severe, near-constant abuse, and because of what that would do to anyone short of a saint. The fact that we can see any change in him at all in so short a time is pretty remarkable.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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So, and this is my own personal headcannon, but I don't think it's possible for someone to change in so short a time. I don't think he changes no matter what path you take with the ascension.
I agree that he's not the way he is because of his mortal life, just that that backstory shows he started off as a bad guy and Cazador made him worse.
And tbf, I haven't done a personal non-ascended ending myself, but watching the videos of others, plus my own personal Ascended version, Astarion tells Tav exactly what they want to hear in both endings. As long as you don't break up with him.
If you don't ascend him, he tells you that it'll make him a better person and that Tav has made him a better person. Which is exactly what a manipulator will tell someone they are still trying to manipulate. Especially someone who is powerful and who he wants to keep on his side and who has been trying to nudge him into being a better person along the way. "I wasn't a good person, Cazador made me do bad things for 200 years, but a few weeks with you and I want to be better/am better for it." I just don't quite buy it. I think going back to being a weak vampire spawn makes him more fearful than ever because he can't protect himself as well as he could with the tadpole, so he has to go back to manipulating Tav to stay on his side, like he did when he first seduces Tav.
If you ascend him, he just doesn't have to hide what he's actually doing/thinking anymore. He can be open and more honest about his craving for power, especially since most Tav's that get this ending have been helping him power trip along the way. Now, a lot of people say "Well true vampires in DND don't have a soul, so the Ascension makes him evil." But the Ascention doesn't really make him a true vampire. He'd have had to drink Cazador's blood to do that and he doesn't in either scenario. However, Raphael states that he would be a 'living' vampire. With all the hungers of a mortal man. So Ascension doesn't really make him a true vampire but something new. Something that may have a soul but having a soul doesn't suddenly make someone good.
Which is probably why I'll always Ascend him. His extra damage is nice, being a vampire myself is fun and the 'good' ending still has you either killing 7000 people or releasing 7000 vampires with no control and a whole lot of hate free. Yes, it's into the underdark, but how many ways could we get to the underdark in just Act 1 alone? Way too many to be policed forever. Not to mention that if you get the tavern scene with Astarion's siblings, one mentions having a human waiting for him to murder after the ascension when he still think's Cazador is gonna free him. So, they're not exactly the good guys either. There's no way to know what those siblings will do with an army of 7000 under their power.
So I'll just save myself the trouble of redemption and power trip out.
Last edited by Myrrh; 08/09/23 01:37 AM. Reason: Spelling
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2019
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So, and this is my own personal headcannon, but I don't think it's possible for someone to change in so short a time. I don't think he changes no matter what path you take with the ascension.
I agree that he's not the way he is because of his mortal life, just that that backstory shows he started off as a bad guy and Cazador made him worse.
And tbf, I haven't done a personal non-ascended ending myself, but watching the videos of others, plus my own personal Ascended version, Astarion tells Tav exactly what they want to hear in both endings. As long as you don't break up with him.
If you don't ascend him, he tells you that it'll make him a better person and that Tav has made him a better person. Which is exactly what a manipulator will tell someone they are still trying to manipulate. Especially someone who is powerful and who he wants to keep on his side and who has been trying to nudge him into being a better person along the way. "I wasn't a good person, Cazador made me do bad things for 200 years, but a few weeks with you and I want to be better/am better for it." I just don't quite buy it. I think going back to being a weak vampire spawn makes him more fearful than ever because he can't protect himself as well as he could with the tadpole, so he has to go back to manipulating Tav to stay on his side, like he did when he first seduces Tav.
If you ascend him, he just doesn't have to hide what he's actually doing/thinking anymore. He can be open and more honest about his craving for power, especially since most Tav's that get this ending have been helping him power trip along the way. Now, a lot of people say "Well true vampires in DND don't have a soul, so the Ascension makes him evil." But the Ascention doesn't really make him a true vampire. He'd have had to drink Cazador's blood to do that and he doesn't in either scenario. However, Raphael states that he would be a 'living' vampire. With all the hungers of a mortal man. So Ascension doesn't really make him a true vampire but something new. Something that may have a soul but having a soul doesn't suddenly make someone good.
Which is probably why I'll always Ascend him. His extra damage is nice, being a vampire myself is fun and the 'good' ending still has you either killing 7000 people or releasing 7000 vampires with no control and a whole lot of hate free. Yes, it's into the underdark, but how many ways could we get to the underdark in just Act 1 alone? Way too many to be policed forever. Not to mention that if you get the tavern scene with Astarion's siblings, one mentions having a human waiting for him to murder after the ascension when he still think's Cazador is gonna free him. So, they're not exactly the good guys either. There's no way to know what those siblings will do with an army of 7000 under their power.
So I'll just save myself the trouble of redemption and power trip out. The thing that doesn't convince me in your reasoning is that if you convince him not to ascend, he makes this choice himself, swayed by you. If he was always this power hungry, he'd never go for it, but instead try to out-convince you, make you let him ascend. There's also the part where that wisdom-check or whatnot comes in and tell you that (if he's Ascended) he'll never respect you again. Which does sound through his Ascended dialogues. I do wish there was another path in the Ascension that allows you to keep on even footing (get turned into a full vampire) and actually go mad with power together though  That'd be pretty fun.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Ah that explains a lot, I must have missed this dialogue somehow.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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He felt slightly bad for those he led to capture for a moment and then immediately was saying death was a better solution for them anyways, and he deserved to ascend, too bad for them. He's not a good person. Plenty of people who have had bad things done to them don't rationalize repeating those things onto others. That's just the kind of person one is. Most people choose to do good despite their poor circumstances. We see this historically, from WW2 prisoners in the camps to slaves to victims of a shipwreck. Despite what William Golding writes in Lord of the Flies about how people behave in crisis, most research shows people cooperating and having solidarity in times of struggle and suffering. The people who cynically take advantage and victimize others in the same situation are the exception, not the rule. Astarion is a selfish person by nature.
Seems by design, they wanted him and Lazael to be selfish, ruthless characters to complement with Minthara for evil playthrough players. Shadowheart was similar in EA, but they softened her up before release because they were getting the criticism that all the women in the roster were hostile and ruthless, and this was probably before they solidified Karlach as an origin good aligned female character.
Last edited by Zenith; 08/09/23 12:44 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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The story angle: his "dark" path leads towards lawful evil. The D&D morality stickler: as a vampire spawn, he's as good as evil to start with. The psychoanalysis attempt: EA Astarion sold, among others, literal children into slavery. He only became a vampire spawn because the minority population he exploited and oppressed a little *too* much took their righteous revenge. If he could justify this as a naive, yet corrupt magistrate, he can justify it now. Admitting slavery is wrong means admitting his actions were wrong, means admitting his death was, possibly even, deserved. Astarion is very salty about dying.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2019
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Astarion is very salty about dying. I'm sorry, but I just love using the word "salty" in regards to such profound things xD Delightful haha.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Not commenting on the morality of it. But consider the fact that hes been a vampire spawn for a good while now. And he hasent gotten the best of treatments during this time. This warps your sense of self. Your selfworth. How you value others. How you vieuw the world and the people in it. Basicly....it warps everything of your psyche.
Regardless of the how or why he became one in the first place (dident run into that part of his backstory yet. But generally speaking you dont do it for fun...) the anwser could also be something simple. Maybe hes just a little bit of a dick?
I dont know. Think only the devs can anwser this one with a complete 100% truthfull anwser. Think we can only speculate.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's pretty irrelevant what his backstory was in an early EA. If it didn't make it into the release game then it didn't happen.
I never came across him saying anything other than he was a magistrate and was set upon by the Gur who disputed a ruling he'd made (3rd playthrough). He just says Cazador found him bleeding out on the street. Now I am quite prepared to believe he took bribes or whatever - fits his personality. But the stuff about him double crossing Cazador way back when, I haven't heard him speak about or seen anything to verify it so if it was there in early EA it isn't now, the devs totally removed it.
Regardless, if you have been forced to torture others, been the victim of torture, even self torture, alongside much other abuse both physical and emotional then whatever he may or may not have done before being made a spawn isn't really relevant, if it was bad then he's paid for it many times over.
He had no choice re the children that appear later on, Cazador told him to and was capable of forcing him to, he almost certainly dissasociated himself from this sort of thing as a self defence mechanism.
He says it himself and nothing in the game contradicts it (even the Gur leader - and she should be the authority on this - says no one blames him).
But my take on why he doesn't empathise with slaves? Deep down he still is one. He's still scared of Cazador. Franky hes scared of a lot of things. And he covers it by being hard faced. He doesn't want to risk his life (if he cares for you he doesn't want you to either) for some random stranger. Can't say I can blame him for that, he's finally got some autonomy over his life for the first time in 200 years, why would he think risking it for a random stranger is in any way sensible.
As the player sitting in my comfy chair with absolutely no possibility of repurcussions beyong having to reroll a save - even I sometimes wonder why we do such things pretty muuch all the time in games rofl
Last edited by Bethra; 08/09/23 08:48 PM.
# Justice for Astarion
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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Apparently a "redeemed" Astarion does have some great dialogue with a romanced DUrge about no longer being ruled by fear. Sounds like it's an interesting conversation.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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It's pretty irrelevant what his backstory was in an early EA. If it didn't make it into the release game then it didn't happen.
I never came across him saying anything other than he was a magistrate and was set upon by the Gur who disputed a ruling he'd made (3rd playthrough). He just says Cazador found him bleeding out on the street. Now I am quite prepared to believe he took bribes or whatever - fits his personality. But the stuff about him double crossing Cazador way back when, I haven't heard him speak about or seen anything to verify it so if it was there in early EA it isn't now, the devs totally removed it.
Regardless, if you have been forced to torture others, been the victim of torture, even self torture, alongside much other abuse both physical and emotional then whatever he may or may not have done before being made a spawn isn't really relevant, if it was bad then he's paid for it many times over.
He had no choice re the children that appear later on, Cazador told him to and was capable of forcing him to, he almost certainly dissasociated himself from this sort of thing as a self defence mechanism.
He says it himself and nothing in the game contradicts it (even the Gur leader - and she should be the authority on this - says no one blames him).
But my take on why he doesn't empathise with slaves? Deep down he still is one. He's still scared of Cazador. Franky hes scared of a lot of things. And he covers it by being hard faced. He doesn't want to risk his life (if he cares for you he doesn't want you to either) for some random stranger. Can't say I can blame him for that, he's finally got some autonomy over his life for the first time in 200 years, why would he think risking it for a random stranger is in any way sensible.
As the player sitting in my comfy chair with absolutely no possibility of repurcussions beyong having to reroll a save - even I sometimes wonder why we do such things pretty muuch all the time in games rofl The voice lines are cut, but there's an argument to be made that his backstory is still 100% in the game, unaltered. You'll know why it's still in the game as soon as you get a conversation going between the Gur and Astarion -- he very much still sold their children into slavery. Consequently, everything else likely remains true. What changed is that he's no longer *honest* with the player about why he died. Why he was turned. Understanding his EA backstory (if you are a non-believer in my interpretation, that is fine), is also required to understand his attitude about slavery. Because those lines were likely written for EA Astarion, as we know him. As both of these aspects *are* theories about the game and his behaviour, I do call him "EA Astarion". The counter possibility is that the moment he turned a blind eye to slavery was retconned to post vampirism. I for one just doubt the Gur killed him over nothing. The Gur who actually knew who he was. You can bet there is a fair bit of denial going on around "was I guilty enough to die?", and I do believe he uses that vehemence to say "no, none of this should have ever happened to me, because none of my actions were that bad". Finally, how he overcomes that inner conflict in both of his endings is drastically different, and will shape his personality for the better or worse.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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From my playthough I didn't get the impression that he would like slavery at all. Time and again he told my Tav, (and my checks from his thoughts and/or insight narrated it, too) that his main motivation is . I believe that's genuine, and it would make sense with his storyline. He doesn't believe that the world is fair or that the strong ones would save anyone. He gets angry when Tav proposes that there is selfless heroism in the world. That's a very understandable point of view for a survivor and that reaction is something that you can actually hear from many real-life survivors. The world has to be hard and unfair (and people denying that have to be just naive), because otherwise there is no point in why the world let you suffer like that. Astarion has a line where he says exactly that (something about how the strong do not care about the weak, because if they did, why did no one ever come for him... and in separate occasion that gods don't care about us, because he prayed to them all and none helped him). So from that I think it's understandable that he doesn't actively stand against slavery, but instead takes it for granted - as something that just is, always has been and will be. I noticed that this reaction did diminish during the game and he stopped disliking us saving everyone all the time. Maybe there is hope for him, in the end. Instead the reason for him liking leaving random people in dire situations and disliking engaging in a fight for them seems to be that he doesn't want to risk himself (and later on you, if you are his partner).
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