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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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So, I've been enjoying the game so far but I had this one fight in act 2 that I feel has some problems and I think I'm not alone. By the way, small Spoilers for act 2 here. It is the fight to prevent Isobel from being kidnapped. When you get to the Last Light Inn, you are very quickly directed to talk to Isobel so that she can cast a spell on you to protect from the shadow curse. Since you are directed to do this so soon, I went and did that before going back to the wilderness. You are then surprised by an attack from flying bad guys coming in to kidnap her. Now the enemies here, even Marcus, are not that hard to fight, they're mostly in line with other encounters before that. No, my main problem is that Isobel getting knocked out (all the enemies focus her) triggers an immediate cutscene which ends the fight here and there and transitions to another cutscene where all the NPCs at the inn but one are turned undead and attack you.
Here is a fight that you do not expect at all and so are not prepared for on your first playthrough, and there are no warnings or context cues to indicate that the loss condition is not "Isobel gets kidnapped" but "Isobel gets knocked out", and then if you fail it is followed by rather massive and honestly disproportional consequences. The game doesn't even wait to the end of the turn to give you a chance to heal her up or give you an option to prevent the enemies from taking her away, your characters are all transported to the outside entrance of the building downstairs and the enemy character just gets to waltz away with no issue while carrying her, hell, he could be doing a little dance while he's at it, you can't do anything but watch.
And this is my main issue with the fight, the loss condition being triggered immediately removes all player agency for what happens next. I know it can be unfair to compare a tabletop RPG to a videogame but its hard no to do it here because I know that, in a tabletop game with a reasonable DM, Isobel getting knocked out would result in the following events:
*one of the winged horrors or Marcus knocks out Isobel*
*The DM narrates Marcus picking up Isobel, he orders the winged horrors to attack you and attemps to make his escape*
Marcus disengages and starts running for the exit, the fight CONTINUES, and in the following turns the players have to fight the winged horrors and prevent them from leaving with Isobel.
Now in a normal DnD game I suppose the encounter would only really end once Marcus has flown away out of range. I suppose there would also be a timer counting down the barrier disolving, or maybe some DMs would have it happen immediately. This gets a bit complex a game that is already done I guess. I just think if the loss condition was something like "The enemy manages to exit the barrier while holding Isobel" instead of her getting knocked out, it would not feel so jarring, like you're being railroaded.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 09/09/23 12:54 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2019
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I agree, my first playthrough was really rough because of this. It was also before Isobels HP and AC were increased, so my Rogue got 1 turn before she was KO'd and taken. It felt awful, especially considering the consequences. That whole playthrough was just crippled and I missed out on SO MUCH content because of it. Anyway, there's a super easy way to deal with this (one low level spell) and other easy ways to deal with this, IF you get initiative fast enough  I totally support giving players at least one extra round before she is taken away and the failure cutscene starts. I suggest this: when she is knocked out, Marcus gives orders to his allies and casts a crowd control spell / uses shove and attacks on the players to make him picking Isobele up next turn easier.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Right! The fight is perfectly doable now if you don't get really screwed over by RNG and initiative, its just nothing tells you on your first playthrough that her getting knocked out immediately ends the fight.
Overall the encounter could be much improved for people on their first playthrough, without even changing the loss condition, simply by:
1. Communicating clearly to the player that Isobel getting taken out will result in some vague nasty consequences (even just one line from your own character saying "If Isobel falls unconscious, the barrier protecting this place will fall" or "all these people will fall to the shadow curse")
2. Either one extra turn after she is knocked out or at least letting the current turn resolve itself.
Its really not much of a problem on second playthrough because you know what to expect, but that shouldn't be an almost requirement for this encounter.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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When you go talk to her and even Jaheira tells you, she's the reason that magic shield warding off the curse is her doing. What more do you need as a hint for the consequence of letting her get kidnapped? Even the dialogue from Marcus states plainly that he is here for her. Why wouldn't you be interested in protecting the cleric just earlier shown to be the source of the protection dome? Are people just not prompting the secondary dialogues available to NPC's?
I beat the fight before the hotfix patch on Balanced for my first playthrough, running a barb/druid/cleric/wizard comp. Marcus went first and still Isobel didn't come even close to dying because you have 3 characters who can apply CC to Marcus and Shadowheart with her Hellrider gloves applies 50% physical damage reduction to whoever she heals. Those gloves are pretty much impossible to miss at Act 1, since you get them for free for helping the tieflings. Shadowheart can also cast sanctuary so Isobel can't be targeted until she attacks, and on top if you throw an invisibility potion on Isobel, she can't be targeted by mobs either until she takes her turn and drops invis by attacking.
This is just one of the possible trivial strategies to protect her. You can also just burst out Marcus with a high level magic missile spell and giving Karlach a speed potion chug. He won't live past a single turn.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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One time I killed Marcus but someone else knocked Isobel out so the fight still ended. I didn't think that could happen.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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When you get to the Last Light Inn, you are very quickly directed to talk to Isobel so that she can cast a spell on you to protect from the shadow curse. Since you are directed to do this so soon, I went and did that before going back to the wilderness. You are then surprised by an attack from flying bad guys coming in to kidnap her. Now the enemies here, even Marcus, are not that hard to fight, they're mostly in line with other encounters before that. No, my main problem is that Isobel getting knocked out (all the enemies focus her) triggers an immediate cutscene which ends the fight here and there and transitions to another cutscene where all the NPCs at the inn but one are turned undead and attack you. Might be an Advocatus Diaboli moment here, but this fight was perfect in its execution and outcome. You spend A LOT of time in BG3, and CRPGs in general, being the first to engage and getting the opportunity to meticulously plan out how you're going to approach the fight. Now, out of nowhere and with no warning, we're the ones suffering a planned ambush and must react as best we can. This fight is exactly what we need to serve as a readiness check for the rest of Act 2 and it fits very well into the narrative of the Shadow Cursed Lands being a uniquely hostile place. All the enemies target Isobel feverishly because she's the HVT and the quest Marcus has received from his heretical God is to capture Isobel alive at all costs. Yes its hard, yes you're likely to lose your first or second time through it, but that is ok! Adjusting in the face of defeat is an important skill to have (in life and BG3 lol :V). Here is a fight that you do not expect at all and so are not prepared for on your first playthrough, and there are no warnings or context cues to indicate that the loss condition is not "Isobel gets kidnapped" but "Isobel gets knocked out", and then if you fail it is followed by rather massive and honestly disproportional consequences. The game doesn't even wait to the end of the turn to give you a chance to heal her up or give you an option to prevent the enemies from taking her away, your characters are all transported to the outside entrance of the building downstairs and the enemy character just gets to waltz away with no issue while carrying her, hell, he could be doing a little dance while he's at it, you can't do anything but watch. A fight you do not expect and are unprepared for is GOOD! That is a good thing! You knowing how to best allocate the resources you have on hand showcases you understanding of your selected classes and the game's mechanics to pull victory from a hopeless situation. Don't get hung up on the "Larian didn't give me a chance to prepare!" notion because that's the entire point of the fight. You will only ever get this experience ONCE, every subsequent playthrough you will know what's going to happen and will more than likely be prepared for the outcome you want. The consequence is not disproportionate AT ALL, in fact it is precisely what you expect. Last Light Inn only exists because of Isobel, and if she's gone, so is the inn and its inhabitants. The true problem lies with Larian not knowing what to do about Karlach once Dammon is gone. And this is my main issue with the fight, the loss condition being triggered immediately removes all player agency for what happens next I abjectly disagree with this. Consequence is a crucially important part of player agency since we now have to make the decision of what to do next with what has transpired. As a useful tactic if you want to keep Isobel alive - Use a Cleric to cast Sanctuary on her. She'll be untargetable by enemies until she attacks. So long as your Cleric goes AFTER her in the turn order, you can keep her safe for a good long while.
Last edited by PhoenicianHydra; 08/09/23 05:06 PM.
I am helpful, am I not?
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2019
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I mean, the fight IS completely awesome, and the consequences of it are awesome. The frustrating part is that sometimes... there is no fight. One of your characters getting one turn and being unable to do anything to save her is what's bad. The fight that comes after losing this fight is one of the best I've had on Tactician and I will definitely remember it as one of the best moments I've had in the game. But I maintain that it IS a bummer on your first playthrough to have back luck with initiative and lose it all. Her AC and HP have been increased and it might not be such a huge problem anymore, but I think we could do with a little balancing here.
I actually had another idea - after she gets knocked out, Marcus casts Sanctuary on himself and flies away with her on the next turn. Still gives all party members a guaranteed turn while keeping it terrifying.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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I'll concede that it could use a little tweaking, maybe, but getting fucked on initiative is a dice problem, which is an ever-present frustration. DEX classes and the Alert feat are invaluable for initiative everywhere, but Isobel herself could likely use a bit more TLC to at least give her a fighting chance.
A scramble round when she's KO'd wouldn't be bad, either.
I am helpful, am I not?
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Biggest issue with the fight is it's very dependent on how many adds come into the room right away vs get caught up fighting npcs. If you don't know it's coming, well chances are the door will be wide open and they'll rush her.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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My first time doing it, I killed Marcus and a monster dropped her to 0 HP and took her away. I barely finished off the corrupted harpers and tieflings, and Jahiera died. I reloaded an earlier save. This also makes the big battle on the first floor of Moonrise Towers much, much more difficult. If you struggle with the Isobel fight, you are going to have a terrible time at Moonrise without the aid of the harpers. Given the massive consequences for failing to protect Isobel, I think maybe it should be easier to do and harder to screw up.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Biggest issue with the fight is it's very dependent on how many adds come into the room right away vs get caught up fighting npcs. If you don't know it's coming, well chances are the door will be wide open and they'll rush her. You want them all balling up at the door for her. Because then your Gale with evocvation's spell sculpting casts a Fireball on them, it doesn't hurt allies, and one shots the entire set of fiends while leaving Marcus as the sole remaining opponent.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2023
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When you go talk to her and even Jaheira tells you, she's the reason that magic shield warding off the curse is her doing. What more do you need as a hint for the consequence of letting her get kidnapped? Even the dialogue from Marcus states plainly that he is here for her. Why wouldn't you be interested in protecting the cleric just earlier shown to be the source of the protection dome? Are people just not prompting the secondary dialogues available to NPC's?
I beat the fight before the hotfix patch on Balanced for my first playthrough, running a barb/druid/cleric/wizard comp. Marcus went first and still Isobel didn't come even close to dying because you have 3 characters who can apply CC to Marcus and Shadowheart with her Hellrider gloves applies 50% physical damage reduction to whoever she heals. Those gloves are pretty much impossible to miss at Act 1, since you get them for free for helping the tieflings. Shadowheart can also cast sanctuary so Isobel can't be targeted until she attacks, and on top if you throw an invisibility potion on Isobel, she can't be targeted by mobs either until she takes her turn and drops invis by attacking.
This is just one of the possible trivial strategies to protect her. You can also just burst out Marcus with a high level magic missile spell and giving Karlach a speed potion chug. He won't live past a single turn. You have no idea that she will be kidnapped before Marcus turns up and once he arrives and you find out he wants to take her you do not know that the game is rigged for her to go down easily and then a cutscene will kick in. You also have no idea that the barrier will collapse immediately if Isobel is so much as unconscious. Nor do you have any inkling that everyone will turn into zombies the instant the barrier collapses. The game doesn't explain why Thorm's long dead daughter is an alive and well priestess of Selune. Nor does it explain why you later meet her again as an undead at Thorm's side. As the OP said at the start, the actual fight isn't the problem so providing your 20-20 hindsight tactics aren't to the point. Like a lot of people I walked into this fight and got caught completely off-balance. I lost Isobel but defeated all the zombies easily enough. I rolled back and did the fight again and Marcus didn't last two minutes. The writing in this game is piss poor - it's the same looooooooooow standard as the crap that Rings of Power managed and that Wheels of Time is currently managing.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2023
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Consequence is a crucially important part of player agency since we now have to make the decision of what to do next with what has transpired. Consequence should be what you get from your choice not what Larian scripts it to be. What decision do you get to make if the Last Light goes? The conscious choice you made in Act 1 to save the tieflings - what was the point? Siding with the harpers to get the moonlantern - pointless.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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I'm all for too-rare defensive encounters like this where the player is caught flat-footed and can't use their preferred MO. The only point I'll concede is that Isobel's HP and AC were too low for tactician (and that's a common enough problem for encounters on tactician with friendly NPCs throughout the game too). Sounds like that was fixed patches 1&2.
On my first play through she got hit hard immediately and I was scrambling to protect her. I threw up Sanctuaries even using higher slots, considered throwing potions of invisibility but thwarted by turn order, and chugged 2-3 potions of speed; that run was all about saving _all_ NPCs. Every available summons was used to block approaches. Had the Blood of Lathander mace then too, so undead attacks were at disadvantage. Finally, Marcus got pushed off the second floor and decided to run around, saving the day.
Just remembered, you can have your fighter draw OAs! I suspected Isobel would move stupidly, so I had my paladin move beforehand to draw them. It's a valid tactic for high AC/HP characters.
As mentioned, Isobel needs just enough AC/HP to last round one, rest is on player. I suspect Fog cloud/Darkness would help - I wonder about Feign death?
One thing not being discussed is the importance of initiative. I'm playing through Act 1 again and there are ways to improve it. Not a lot, true, but some. And it's already making a difference. Don't overlook +1 here or there.
(In fact, it doesn't look like BG3 uses TT initiative. The variation is too stable. I suspect they use static initiative with a 0-2 variance. If so, that +1 is a bigger shift than you'd think, and +5 is huge.)
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Consequence should be what you get from your choice not what Larian scripts it to be. My brother in Mystra, every outcome of every choice is scripted by Larian. What is this supposed to mean? You have no idea that she will be kidnapped before Marcus turns up and once he arrives and you find out he wants to take her you do not know that the game is rigged for her to go down easily and then a cutscene will kick in. You also have no idea that the barrier will collapse immediately if Isobel is so much as unconscious. Nor do you have any inkling that everyone will turn into zombies the instant the barrier collapses.
As the OP said at the start, the actual fight isn't the problem so providing your 20-20 hindsight tactics aren't to the point. Like a lot of people I walked into this fight and got caught completely off-balance. I lost Isobel but defeated all the zombies easily enough. I rolled back and did the fight again and Marcus didn't last two minutes. The game doesn't explain why Thorm's long dead daughter is an alive and well priestess of Selune. Nor does it explain why you later meet her again as an undead at Thorm's side. Yes it does - it is a main narrative point throughout the entire Act and there is a ton of dialogue explicitly mentioning who Isobel is, how she died, and how/why she was raised. How you missed the entire narrative of Act 2 is crazy. The writing in this game is piss poor - it's the same looooooooooow standard as the crap that Rings of Power managed and that Wheels of Time is currently managing. Translated as - "I skipped or misunderstood everything going on so the writing is bad!"
Last edited by PhoenicianHydra; 09/09/23 01:36 AM.
I am helpful, am I not?
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Mar 2021
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(In fact, it doesn't look like BG3 uses TT initiative. The variation is too stable. I suspect they use static initiative with a 0-2 variance. If so, that +1 is a bigger shift than you'd think, and +5 is huge.) Initiative rolls are a d4
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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Wow! That means if I give Gale the +1 initiative bow it's a 1/6 improvement, not 1/20. I knew it was something like this because my first play through I was prioritizing loading up on initiative items, and I was getting complete runs of all my party going first.
There's a little bit of this you can do in Act 1, mainly respec'cing to get even scores with no bad Dex. Only got 1 item so far.
Plan is to be fast-as to react and beat most the flying ghouls.
[Edit] Oh, and now all strong characters carry 3x crates for instant fortifications.
Last edited by FreeTheSlaves; 09/09/23 06:19 AM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2023
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I literally had to do nothing in order to be able to lose this fight. On tactician. It's way too easy now.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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Initiative rolls are a d4 I still don't understand this change. I mean, I wouldn't even go as far as saying it's objectively better or worse... it's just different and it kinda feels like it's different for the sake of it.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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I feel like this is a losing � if not lost � battle now I�m not here all the time to nag people but PLEASE remember your spoiler tags when discussing plot elements and warn of spoilers in thread titles.
I simply don�t have time any more to keep updating posts to add spoiler tags when you folks don�t, but please be considerate of your fellow forum members, especially those on other platforms who haven�t yet had time to complete the game.
Remember post previews show up on active threads feeds and people might click into a thread from the search function, so it�s easy to get spoiled by accident if people aren�t showing care.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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