Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion That one character that makes me always regret going to act 3. *Spoilers

Just the fact that they had to change Balduran's - an already established character, with their own storied history in the lore - race from human to elf to try (and fail) at making the story's timeline make slightly more sense should've been a red flag for the writers that he isn't working the way they wrote him.

Oh real quick regarding the Balduran race aspect, he was human at least according to Ed Greenwood though at the same time I don't know what degree of influence he had on BG3.

Yeah, he's always been a human in DND lore. But there's a picture in Ansur's lair of Balduran that directly calls him an elf in the game. I think someone realized how nonsensical the timeline was, so they "fixed" it by making him an Elf. Which is, like you know, really dumb.

Honestly though, age shouldn't be that much of an issue for human heroes that reach a status like Balduran, as we do see other humans that are far beyond their natural lifespan appear in BG3 (Volo and Elminster). The real issue is that the Emperor is a really strange case where his associated time of disappearance and the assumed time of his return (likely inside of 100 years if not narrower) means he spent so many years just twiddling his thumbs in Baldur's Gate until Stelmane is born and old enough to become a member of the Knights of the Shield. Like one would think a relatively morally aligned (sometimes) mindflayer with the power to single handedly take down a dragon that is at least an adult (if not older) would do more in the setting.

You side with Orpheus and the Emperor straight up joins the Netherbrain... a being that he has been fighting against all this time. He quite literally goes and enslaves himself willingly just because you do something he doesnt want you to. I knew the guy was manipulative but this was deal breaker for me and made no sense at all.

romance the Emperor, but that is on us not on him!

+1, totally love this scenario here and would go for this in-game if I could, much more reasonable than what we've got. I personally don't understand why we're so railroaded with some of the characters. Like... the Emperor and Astarion(at the beggining of the game) are mirrors to each other, survivors!(and mind you there are other situations like that in game...) If you understood Astarion's character and gave him a chance and the Emperor cleary saw this... if You've met Omeluum and was friendly with him, and yet again the Emperor must have know about this... Why would he not give you at least a chance to explain yourself, appeal to his reasoning? Especially if You somewhat bonded with him! Why not promise You that he will let Orpheus go after all of this(and indeed make him the evil one if he would eat the prince behind Your back, that would at least give us a real and serious reason for wanting to kill him and a cool plot twist for scheming character)? I see him going to the Netherbrain as a desperate attempt to preserve himself, but only when all other choices would have been outed and how is it handled now shows he doesn't even believe in Tav's and companions abilities to preserve themselves which contradicts precisely all of his mighty plan to build up trust with them and use them for it. Why using things that You know wouldn't work?

And Omeluum... I greatly dissapprove how he was used in the story. Cleary his only purpose was for us to see that there can be somewhat good aligned mindflayer and to give us some boon(which have a lot worse meaning storywise and mechanicaly in full realese of the game). That just it. Meeting him don't have any meaning for the Tav and companions, they don't even have a serious talk about this; there is not even "oh, the Emperor is mindflayer, we know another one we could ask for advice in this matter" talk. The narration unreasonably takes from player a choice for Omeluum to be an ally in the end of game in which one of most vital points is freedom from Elder Brain for a mindflayer! You give player a character that have a power to get himself out of control of Elder Brain, capable of self sacrifice and think nobody would think about asking him for help in the matter when he cleary also is in danger along with all the Sword Coast if the Netherbrain plan comes to life? It's a huge overlook in various ways for me.

I do like the Emperor a bit more than Daisy (the original dream figure, still wish they could have found a way to keep Daisy implemented), but the Emperor was a last-minute change so the dialogue and character-building are lacking along with causing some scenarios to become nonsensical.

And you can kill the Emperor when he asks for you to enter the portal to aid him against Orpheus's honour guard. But if you do that then you end up turning into a Mindflayer. Which never made sense to me.

I don't understand why there was no option to reason with the honour guard, insisting that you will do what you can to release Orpheus so long as you are provided continued protection against the Absolute. (that way you can kill the Emperor without consequence)

Then again, according to Orpheus, his honour guard did not need your help, his honour guard would have released him and allowed him to stop the Elder Brain on his own. ("They would have freed me, and I would have stopped the elder brain before it evolved into a Netherbrain")

But why did the honour guard, not free Orpheus sooner? I thought Vlaakith imprisoned Orpheus and his honour guard many years ago.

Depending on if you can establish enough trust with The Emperor, players should be able to release Orpheus and convince the two to work together for the greater good if you can pass a series of skill checks. (perhaps extra benefit if the character species is a Gith or has not used tadpole powers/consumed tadpoles)

It does not make sense for the Emperor to join the Netherbrain if you intend to release Orpheus. The Emperor wanted freedom from the Netherbrain, to avoid becoming a slave to it. The "if we can't beat them, join them" mentality does not fit the established goals of the Emperor. The Emperor enthralled Duke Belynne Stelmane, the Emperor killed Ansur. It would make more sense if the Emperor attempted to kill or enthrall you/all party members. Or convince the Emperor to take Omeluum's ring and flee if he values self-preservation that much (if you accepted the ring).

There should also be an option of at least trying to recruit Omeluum in the fight against the Elder Brain (if he kept the ring), through a series of skill-checks/quest completion. (This is a better alternative for players who do not want to become Mindflayers/or for Orpheus to become a Mindflayer)


What was great about Daisy in early access, minus the obvious peer pressure to utilize the tadpole was that there were consequences and the removal of those consequences did take away from some character dialogue. (if you do not count the astral touched tadpole and the other tadpole used to turn you into a mind flayer as consequences).

Mind-flayers are nothing if not logical beings and knowing it would take a mindflayer to defeat the elder brain, and that none of you were currently mindflayers, there was no chance the party would win with Orpheus. I don't think the Emp could forsee Orpheus actually be willing to become a mindflayer himself to defeat the brain.

Ansur helped the Emp break free the 1st time and the Emp went back to Baldur's gate to start his illicit trading ring, until Gortash captured him and returned him to the brain. Since Ansur's now dead dead, if the Emp becomes truly enslaved to the brain again, there is no chance he could break free on his own.

The Emp has been using Orpheus's power without permission this whole time. While Orpheus can be talked into continuing to shield the party, there's no way he would agree to protect/help a full-on mindflayer, especially one who helped keep him enslaved. The second Orpheus stops shielding him, the brain will enslave the Emp and force him return to it. There is no way a logical being is going to 'gamble' on his former prisoner to help him and even if Orpheus did help, he would most assuredly try to kill the Emperor after defeating the brain. So the Emp's choices were:

1) Gamble on the party/Orpheus and end up either enslaved or dead.

2) Return to the brain on his own, fake submission to it, until he could get far enough away to be safely out of it's control.

Logically, he figured his best chance at future autonomy was to return to the brain on his own and try to "fake" submission until he could escape again......because he's done it before. I base this on the book you find on a table before the boat ride to the brain called "Evading the Elder brain" with a dialogue of Gortash interrogating the Emperor after returning him to the brain. If you missed the book, here's what it says:

"Gortash: When we captured you, you were a rogue, an autonomous illithid beyond the power of the elder brain that transformed you.

Emperor: That is correct.

Gortash: When we brought you back into the psionic ambit of our hovering friend the Absolute, your defences were overwhelmed and you returned to your former servile state.

Emperor: Also correct.

Gortash: How did you escape the control of the elder brain in the first place?

Emperor: In my original humanoid form, I possessed an exceptionally strong personality-so much so that even after ceremorphosis I was still substantially 'myself'. Of course, I concealed this beneath a semblance of perfect servitude.

Gortash: And that's why the elder brain was willing to send you out of the colony on scouting missions?

Emperor: Yes, as I told you before.

Gortash: How long did you feign mental slavery before you were able to escape?

Emperor: Thirteen and three-quarters years.

Gortash: Until finally you were given a mission to Baldur's Gate, distant enough to be out of the elder brain's control?

Emperor: That is correct.

Gortash: Remarkable.

Emperor: That is correct.

Gortash: And you don't mind that we've brought you back under psionic control?

Emperor: I am entirely devoted to the needs of our elder brain and of its masters.

Gortash: You're not lying about that, right?

Emperor: Correct. That would be impossible."

While Balduran's strong will may have kept him somewhat autonomous, it required Ansur's help to break free the first time. So by leaving out the Ansur part we can see that the Emp is obviously lying to Gortash about how he got free the first time. He's also lying about even having a "formerly servile state" since his former state wasn't 100% servile at all. This leads me to believe that the Emp has fooled the elder brain with a fake submissiveness not once, but twice. So it's totally believable that if you don't follow his plan to defeat the brain, he would see his best way forward as going to the brain and faking submission a third time until he could escape again. Larion just didn't do the greatest job explaining the Emp's motivation for his choice, since if you miss the book, you miss almost all of his reasoning behind abandoning the party at the 11th hour. So it just seems like he's all "Go Team Tav" until you turn on him and then he's just jarringly "I'm outta here" with little explanation.

I feel just Orpheus being trapped in the artifact would have been enough of a twist. There didn't need to be two inhabitants.

Orpheus has been in the astral prism for 1000 years, Vlakiith's entire reign, and been helpless to get free. Him suddenly being able to affect anything outside of the prism wouldn't make sense.

Without the Emp, the party would not be shielded from the Absolute, because we are outside the prism.

Even if they deus ex machina'ed Orph to suddenly be able to reach beyond the prism, his only power is to block mindflayer control. So he could shield tadpoled people outside the prism, but be unable to talk to anyone, because he's not mindflayer and can't connect to tadpoled people. So we'd be free but completely directionless unless we went to the gith creche and got put into the prism by Vlakiith to talk to him. So anyone that goes to Act 2 via the underdark would be completely clueless as to who is helping them, why they are free, and what we need to do. Unless we were railroaded into having no choice but to go to the creche, taking away a lot of choices for players in the game.

Even if they gave him a way to reach out of the prism, the motivation to free the party from the absolute, came up with a reason he could speak mentally to you, your entire game would be:


"I am your only path to being free, help me. If you don't do what I say, I will let the Absolute turn you into a mindflayer and get someone else to help me."

Choose your response:

1) "Ok"
2) Turn into a mindflayer and serve the brain until the Gith kill you.

1) "You must kill this demon for the hammer. Don't bother bargaining with him, I'm sending you my loyal Gith/royal guards. Then free me."

*steamroll Raphael with Gith Royal Guards on red dragons, get hammer, free him, kill brain*

*also, probably be killed by Orpheus afterwards because canonically, Gith are EVIL alignment. They will kill/torture/enslave anyone who gets in their way of hunting mindflayers. There would be zero reason for Orpheus to help you or not outright kill you after you help him kill the brain, especially if you used tadpoles to enhance your power along the way, making the choice of using tadpoles an instant death sentence.*

2) Play mindflayer mini-game of inserting tadpoles into people's eyes until a group of Gith bust in and kill you.

Roll credits.


There would be no sense of mystery for the player to figure out what is really going on. Zero choices on who to trust, who to follow, what path to take. Zero choice to enslave the brain yourself. None of our choices in game would make much difference since they would all have to end with us siding with Orpheus or nuking with Gale.