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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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There, i said it ... i would even go so far to claim, its done straight forward badly. :-/
Not sure if this is the only way, or i just picked some really weird permutation ...
But as i approach to final battle against Minsc ... Jaheira in my group starts beging to "not kill him" and "find anothe way" ...
> So i killed Fake Jaheira first ... she even turned back in her original doppelganger form ...
Nothing ... so i though, okey, maybe Minsc really is *that* stupid ...
> So i killed everyone else ... capured him in Hold Person ... and went to explore the room ...
Wich was anoying as fuck btw, since in turn based mode, it feels ten times biger.
I was looking for some kind of diary, scetch of Boo, Boo himself locked in some cage, box, or other container ... anything that would help Minsc remember.
Didnt find anything ofc.
I even find one part of wall that looked suspiciously fragile, and spend two turn sending Eldrich Blasts and explosives that way ...
Nothing ...
> So i gave up ... and decided to kill him.
Funny enough, that worked!
Bcs i forgot i still have non-lethal attacks enabled ... bcs i wanted to steal all loot from that Zhentarim vendor who was there. xD
Im sure many people feel now like "duh, man ... you dont want to kill anyone, you use non lethat attack that should be no brainer" ...
And i would possibly agee ... except nope, i dont.
> Tryed to save Marina's brothers by knocking them out? - Both dead.
> Tryed to Wyll's father (yup, killed Gortash first time we met) by knocking him out? - Dead.
> Tryed to save Minthara by knocking her out? - Dead.
And the list goes on.
My point is, as far as i know (and feel free to corect me) this is THE ONE AND ONLY case, in WHOLE FREAKING GAME ... where non-lethal attacks actually works!
And i dont really have the feeling that this function was properly advertised to player, since by the time we get to this particular combat ... we have probably over dozen of very dissapointing experiences with this bullshit, that ensured us in that there is no real function at all!
Suggested fixes:
- Let this scene simply proc when he have low health, like every other NPC in the game.
- Let us break the wall and find Boo, while Minsc is still hostile ... let them help each other.
- Let Minsc realize that Half-Elves dont usualy transform into bat/bulldog face creatures immediately uppon death.
- Let Jaheira actually yell "use non-lethal attacks" rather than "find another way" ... hoping that player will translate it as: "Remember that shit that was completely useless for past hundert of hours? NOW ITS NOT!"
Thank you for reading.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 29/09/23 08:48 PM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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Jaheira should use unambiguous language. Minsc is her dear friend, she should want you to understand her clearly.
'Don't kill him, knock him out!
(Another head wound won't matter.)
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2023
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Not sure if you got the same thing but in my playthrough I got a tutorial message during that particular fight telling me to switch on non-lethal attacks. Thought that was a very helpful reminder. Agree with you though on the inconsistency when compared to other situations.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2021
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Marina's brothers don't die. They added dialogue in for it.
Also Knock Out Nettie ...She dies.
Last edited by Rosa; 01/10/23 12:29 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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If you use ranged or spell attacks they'll still die with non-lethal attack toggled on. It can only be used with melee attack
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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I got a tutorial message during that particular fight telling me to switch on non-lethal attacks. No, that didnt happened to me ... if it would, i wouldnt run around the room trying to find some clue ...  But as i said, since i turned in on to knock out the merchant ... maybe that tip didnt show (or hid really fast) bcs i allready had it activated. If you use ranged or spell attacks they'll still die with non-lethal attack toggled on. It can only be used with melee attack I see how is this information relevant to anything in this topic. But yeah ... i know that.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 01/10/23 01:46 PM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Yep agreed, the whole find Minsc quest felt scattered, unwieldy, and disorganized. TBH Act 3 is a jumbled mess lol.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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You can also knock out Hope's sister in Raphael's hell-house.
That gives you some different dialogue lines.
be careful though, she is damned hard to keep alive after knocking her out. especially if you also get the Orthon bruiser to switch sides for you. I had to cast globe of invulnerability on her just to keep her alive. It worked, but made the fight a bit tougher.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
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I was surprised that you have to use non-lethal attacks on him, considering Viconia does not require you to toggle it.
But then again I'd have preferred it if he and Jaheira never were companions and the others would've had more content for act 3 instead, so I'll accept needing to go out of your way to get him.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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I get the impression Minsc was added after most of the storyline had already been scoped out. Sort of a throwback for the nostalgia driven fans of prior Baldur's Gate releases. In movie terms, this type of addition is defined as a 'Requel' where you have a new plot continuing a movie series, but the same actors portraying original characters appear in that new movie. Requels are very popular right now because the age demographic of theater goers is getting older, so they remember those movies they saw when they were younger. Anyway, for Minsc, the way they introduce him is pretty cool I must admit. But recruiting him later on requires the player to know something the game doesn't explicitly tell you (which runs contrary to the very intuitive nature of BG3 for the most part). If you don't know about the passive (non-lethal damage), you may only ever end up unaliving the guy and not know why. Then of course you forget to turn off that passive and start leaving all these unconscious enemies lying about everywhere in future fights like I did.
They should have done Minsc the same way they did Viconia (I agree with another poster on this), where (If Minsc HP <=0, change hp total to 1, until dialogue occurs). For some reason Larian didn't do that here.
As for Act 3 being a mess @avahZ Darkwood
It's more a pacing issue I think. Act 1 introduces you to the world, describes the stakes (What's called in story terms Exposition). Act 2 brings you up against the stakes (what's called Rising Action in story terms). Act 3 should be (Climax and Denouement). Instead, the urgency is lost. It's almost like 'Hey, there's a big army coming toward us but we'll still mill about in the street like nothing's the matter.' Rising Action is gone.
What should have happened here is the City should have been on lockdown initially, and when you first arrive you should be sent through a processing line before even getting into Rivington, with a large group of guards and soldiers arrayed in case skirmishers show up. Keep the urgency up as you progress toward that climactic battle and the player has to skulk around the City secretly building alliances and when the Foundry gets destroyed, people can start coming out of their homes and packing up to leave etc. Instead the battle is more 'Get to it when you get to it.' A way to look at this would be what life in London was like during the Blitz in WW2.
(Remember, the Dead Three's plan was: Thorm marches the army to Baldur's Gate, Orin sows chaos in the City, and Gortash saves the City and therefore wins the peoples' trust. The idea here is Gortash uses that trust to make the City a prison and the Steel Watch are the jailers. Baldurians trade freedom for security, and then they are basically lambs to all be tadpoled. So all of the 'defending soldiers' and such would be for show but would be necessary for people to believe there's an actual threat. People should be under martial law, unable to leave the City once they come into it etc. And there should be curfews. Again, to keep the pacing of the story. I realize this conflicts with Larian's vision of having a living, breathing city. In this case, because of the cool storyline weaved by the Larian authors, they can't have the cake and eat it too. It needs to be one or the other (living city or narrative tension in Act 3).
I understand what Larian chose in Act 3. They wanted to create a simulated City with life breathed into it (which they did with unswerving ability). Unfortunately it jars the tone of the story as a result. Especially with (for example) the army of the Absolute coming, and you're on a rooftop trying to find a flying cat that's eating courier pigeons.
Now, if they wanted to include this rooftop story AND have it contribute to the tension, the premise would be more like this. In the courier offices Gortash insisted on replacing all of the pigeons with a special breed of pigeons that 'he' bred to be faster. In reality, those pigeons only fly the mail to Gortash who then reads it to try and find traitors, and cut off Baldur's Gate from the world. The Tressym is an annoyance though as it's eating Gortash' pigeons, so Gortash's clerk asks you to find out what's stopping the mail. When you find the Tressym, it tells you it's really hungry because the other pigeons have more meat on their bones than Goratsh' breed, but are locked away in a holding area nearby. So you take all the mail the Tressym has collected from Gortash' pigeons, and bring it to the real ones who agree to help you after you fight to rescue them. The mail is then to flight with the letters along with additional messages for help that you, Tav, write to neighboring cities. This would gain you an ally based on who reads your note, thwart Gortash, and drive the main storyline at the same time. It's the random missions in Act 3 that detract from the tension. Everything should contribute to driving the story forward in some way..
Last edited by Vegor; 02/10/23 06:53 PM.
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