Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Build Discussion Jack of all Trades solo - sell me on Archery

I know the title is a bit presumptuous so let me elaborate a bit.

I was doing a bit of a masochistic run - tactical solo JoaT trying to avoid combat as much as possible. At the start of act 3 I was level 6 and every NPC is 9+. So I figured the "no fighting" part was a bad idea so I am restarting my run.

In every discussion I've seen the consensus is that you should go with Ranged using lv 2/3 Wizard spells as support.

On my first run I was going with a similar approach but using Eldritch Blast instead. The idea being that - sure Ranged stacks with DEX but EB can stack with CHA if you use the Potent Robe. Interestingly if you get the Ne'er Misser in act 2 your Sneak Attack now deals Force damage instead; that also scales from CHA with the robe. The Stalker Gloves in act 3 (extra sneak attack 1d4 force damage) also scale with the Robe. So at level 10 you have your 3x EB + the SA + the ESA all scaling from CHA. My gameplan was basically - spam Darkness and EB from the center of it. There is a ring in act 2 that prevents blindness so accuracy wasn't that much of an issue. Darkness also counts as advantage for Sneak Attack.

I did all the math that I could and from what I can tell using dual hand crossbows is about the same damage before level 10 (and less after that because EB gets another blast) even though it has only 2 attacks. As far as DPS goes the best I could think of was the Diadem of Arcane Synergy + Callous Glow Ring + Weapon dipping + Lightning Charges + any of the damage boosting gloves. Technically you can boost with another ring if you are not using Darkness (I can't really figure out how you'll be fighting bosses/big groups like that, but you technically can). I couldn't figure out how to consistently get lightning charges with dual hand crossbows but I am just assuming it's an option.

For EB the boosting comes from the Potent Robe + Callous Glow Ring + Lightning Charges. Boots of Arcane Bolstering sound good on paper but from what I saw while playing you need to dash before you attack in order to get the boost; and I can't find a reliable way to both keep the Darkness up (so no Expeditious Retreat) and dash + EB each turn. For the amulet - Elemental Torment with Caustic Brine if you have a caustic bulb for every fight. Before you say "Hex" -> Can't really have it up while also having Darkness.

Math:
Hand crossbow base: 1-6
Enchantment: 2
DEX (assuming 20): 5
CHA (assuming 18): 4
Dip: 1-4
Gloves: 1-4
Ring: 2-2
Electric Charges: 1-1
One hit = 17-28
Both hits + Sneak Attack = 35-62 (average of 48.5. You can boost it a bit with arrows, but I doubt you'll have enough arrows for all the fights)

Eldritch Blast:
Each blast is boosted with (I will assume 16 CHA it obviously can be more but I am spreading my stats for solo): 3 from CHA + 2 from ring + 1 from Electric Charges or a total of +6 per hit. You can also + 1d4 acid from the ground + amulet combo. Before level 10 thats:
Blast: 1-10 +6 + 1-4 = 8-20 (average of 14)
Blast: 1-10 +6 + 1-4 = 8-20 (average of 14)
SA: 1-6 +6 + 1-4 = 8-16 (average of 12)
ESA: 1-4 + 6 + 1-4 = 8-14 (average of 11)
That's an average of 51.

Now since the DPS is about the same for the most part (unless, and most likely, I am missing something severely important) the utility comes to mind.
- You still have your bonus action with EB, which ironically you can spend on a hand crossbow attack (I often did to clear up trash and for Arcane Acuity) or as much as people dismiss it - just chugging potions.
- EB has a range of 18m and a Hand Crossbow comes with a range of 15m.
- EB deals Force Damage. As far as I can tell almost nothing is resistant to Force Damage. Some harder monsters on the other hand are resistant to Pierce.

While I was fighting the Apostle of Myrkul I can safely say that being able to chug potions and the extra 3m range won me the fight (after 1 grueling hour until I could figure out how to position myself). This fight alone is the only reason I am making the thread as I cannot see a viable way to clear it with Ranged. You can ignore Pierce resistance with ... gloves you can get in act 3.

The one upside that I can see with using dual hand crossbows is that my armor slot is now free and honestly Shadeclinger Armour + Darkness looks appealing. But right now the armor seems to be bugged and you can just equip it -> get the boost -> remove it -> the boost stays until long rest (or at least the UI for it does).

TL;DR - I am 100% sure I am missing something important but I can't figure out what it is. I tried asking on Reddit, got 2 replies telling me basically "Just use Ranged" with no elaboration on why.

EDIT: Spelling errors.

melee is way more superior than any magic in this game

Are we still talking about Jack of all Trades or just in general?

I cannot figure out a viable melee build that would work. I am not saying that it doesn't exist, that's why I am asking for help.

I think, first and foremost, what is missing here is: you don't seem to have a clearly defined, actionable plan/goals regarding your solo char.

Additionally, you have unusual emphasis on jake of all trades. But that typically means your char has proficiencies in more than a few skills as well as advantages in a number of ability checks. This aspect of char building is not directly related to combat. Talking enemies to death is very situational in this game and talking yourself out of violent confrontations typically only needs to be lucky and/or persuasive enough. They are not the same as being a jake of all trades. So, how your jake of all trades fits into your solo build is undefined to me.

BTW, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make a jake of all trades char for use in my Dark Urge playthrough. That's why your thread caught my attention. The above are my two cents.

You can have the same number of proficiencies regardless of which way you decide to go for the build, so I am not entirely sure why that matters.

No matter how much you talk yourself out of combat sooner or later you do have to fight.

Quite honestly I am not entirely sure what you're trying to say.

I suggest you to go figther with 15 str 8 dex 16 con 8 int 8 wis 17 char.
Then jump to bard wis sorc druid cleric lock in that order.
Learn spells as much as you can from scrolls.
Then the rest don't really matter. Jack can be a decent caster if you focus on charisma.

I finished the game already with that setup, and what you're saying is correct, but I dumped STR (Elixirs are a thing) and pumped int/wis for saves/skill checks (at the start I was assuming things are going to actually hit me, turns out no - AI has 0 idea how to handle Darkness). I assume the 8 dex is because of the dex gloves.

But yeah, basically after you arrive at act 3 you have access to so many bloody scrolls. It devalues whatever you've been doing for the last 2 acts; which in my case - was just shoving/throwing NPCs into chasms. I have thrown so many NPCs into chasms ... Half of the tower in act 2 just had a series of unfortunate accidents on a certain bridge in a certain prison.

I've pretty much beat up Ansur with scrolls alone - Darkness (and later on Globe of Invulnerability) + Scrolls of Disintegrate (EB is especially bad vs him because of the -4 damage per hit).

Having recently finished my joat achievement, I went with gnome and 1st class was Bard then rogue and stacked cha and used all the stat boosing equipment. Never failed a roll.

As for damage used 2 hand crossbows, Ne'er Misser and Yurgir's, but it was cleanup damage. Scrolls if you want to cheese everything.

I would generally leave it be, but people keep suggesting using double hand crossbows without actually providing an actual reasoning to why that would be better than Eldritch Blast.
(I am excluding the first person who didn't even bother to read "Jack of all Trades" and directly went for melee)

And it honestly, really pisses me off, because that was the whole reason I made this thread...

The following text is what I posted on the Steam website, which summarizes my personal take on solo play in BG3 (Tactician is implicitly assumed, otherwise solo play would be quite meaningless). Hope it may be of some help to you. By reading newer posts, I guess your solo char wasn't unexpected: Darkness coupled with Devils Sight, high mental abilities coupled with naturally low STR, etc. Honestly, in the end I still don't know how your emphasis on "jack of all trades" is related to the damage output you discussed at great length. But I hope you have found what you were looking for.

== below is what I posted on Steam ==

1) As for the gameplay, I think the hardest part of solo BG3 is not how the character performs in the end game context with a lot of fancy gear already filled up in the stash. But this question: How to get to Baldur's Gate, with or without dying at least once on this journey?

2) As for the build of the char, the most important question is: how often to respec? If respec is involved, the actual solo character is no longer a single build, but a combination of two or more builds, which may require potentially very different or even conflicting playstyles/gear/etc.

3) As for the roleplay part, the most relevant question is: Will any major/significant quests have to be skipped or only to be completed as unfinished? (Note: quests can be "completed" if the game thinks it's no longer possible to complete them.) Surely, most companion quests are gone or can only be completed in a more or less superficial way. Any other quests to skip or to be left behind? Also, do you plan to skip a large portion of the game by intentionally making use of a certain dead companion?

Also, ideally, the following questions/concerns are addressed upfront while planning the character:

4) Unless permadeath is the rule, how often is it acceptable to reload? As nobody is supposed to join the player party for the entire playthrough (except when and where it's enforced by the game to be otherwise), whenever the player char reaches zero hit point and can't automatically be healed, it is game over. Either treat this as permanent death, or a reload is in order. How often is such a reload too often to be acceptable?

5) How often to use potions? Is using potions an intrinsic part of the underlying build?

6) How often to talk to NPC before (tough) battles? This is the most relevant question when it comes to metagaming. If a player knows a tough battle will break out after triggering a talk, they may skip the talk and try to surprise potential enemies by simply attacking or ambushing them. A solo assassin build may require that the player skip as many pre-combat talks as possible, in order to make full use of subclass benefits. I personally hate doing this, even if it means I'll be fully surrounded/surprised once the talk is over.

7) Finally, the ultimate question for solo play in BG3 is: How to deal with the 75% loss of power by going solo vs party?

In BG2, I enjoyed solo play as much as party play - that was on Insane difficulty. Solo play is much simpler than managing a full party, yet a solo char can be built in a way to make the loss of party support eventually irrelevant in combat. In fact, a solo char can be built to be so self-sufficient in combat, that after Chapter 6 of BG2, a single char can keep a full party alive without the other 5 idling party members helping with any battle (well, other than doing something to help keep themselves alive if the whole party is ambushed or otherwise under attack).

In BG3, all 4 party members are technically equally powerful. Unlike in BG2, solo play in BG3 means the player loses 75% of combat power on a permanent basis, no way to make up for such an extensive loss of power. If solo is considered easy, then a full party play will be considered 4 times easier.

8) For BG3, I haven't figured out any build to be fully capable of solo play. I think the only real question worth asking in the end is: How to counter the underlying combat mechanism of this game after losing up to 75% of power in combat by choosing to go solo?

I personally believe, what is needed for solo play in BG3 is not a single build or a self-sufficient char, but one or more ways to counter the game's combat mechanism and a char who can do that.

One way is by using/abusing Darkness. Over 99% of NPC in this game can't handle magical darkness properly. As a result, a level 2 Warlock under a player's control can hide in magical darkness and attack to kill just about everyone within range without worrying about immediate retaliation.

Another way is by using Invisibility (spell/potion, not skill/ability). Unless you have joined combat, if you walk around invisible, most NPC will completely ignore you. You are free to go anywhere, discovering new places. You may even speed up or break a quest this way. All that, until you lose invisibility. Being magically invisible enables the player to possibly skip tough battles (at the cost of losing XP), or if that's impossible, at least make tough battles to most likely start in a way favoring the player.

Yet another way is by relying on potions to raise STR to a super high level and then playing as a Tavern Brawler for a full day every day. This enables the player to do massive damage both in melee and from a relatively safe distance.

== end of post ==

hope it may be of some help to some fellow players.

Premise is to each its own thing of course, given we have choice.

In my case solo run means a walktrough where camp ends up being empty. Reject/kill every possible companion, so story unfolds differently. A pity there’s not an achievement fot it, would motivate me more.

Then, since the purpose is also a challenging walktrough, the build should not be based on exploits or tricky expedients. No true powerbuilds. And no boring ones while we’re at it, given how lenghty the process may become (two-handers with GWM… what’s the real difference from having a party or not?). So, a jack-of-all-trades build is also what I’m after.

My policy includes no respec and no hirelings, so no Whiters. I’m self-policing myself on this, because I chose to have Withers in camp as a ‘safeguard’, because it may happen that some moments are just too tough to overcome. I don’t want to skip anything, but I know I may be forced to change the order of some fights and avoid others.

Started recently, Monk 1/Wiz 1/Cle 1 right now, trying my hand with the first group of four gnolls you meet. Plenty of reloads so far, they’re nasty from range and I have…cantrips and fists. So far skipped spider queen fight, will have to return later.

If you want challenges, there are plenty. If you want to walk around invisible placing barrels or shoot at things from darkness without even initiating dialogues… well, done that in party runs, just not as a self-imposed challenge.

Can some mod just lock this?

It was a simple thread with a simple question that seems to have alluded everyone that bothers to post.

Not sure why this thread would require locking. It’s a very specific question so someone might come along at some point with an answer, but it the meantime I don’t see any harm in leaving this for folk to talk about a Jack-of-all-Trades solo build or archery in general. Though happy to be PM-ed to discuss further.

If anyone is interested in a Jack-of-all-Trades build that’s not for a solo run, and not involving crossbows, though, they could perhaps consider adding to the thread I made a while back before starting my own ongoing Jack-of-all-Trades run (I’ve got to level 6 and am having a blast with it: literally, now, as my level 6 was Warlock). It’s at https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=904074.

Well actually Archery in this Game Get Pretty F. Strong in Single Targets all Builds i Made with Fighter/Hunter by endgame i was just killing bosses with 3 shots most of times..
Just Aply Hunter Mark and Use the Ablities from Fighter combat school i beleave i always forget.. its the best school for fighter that Shit is Ludicrous in terms of Damage..
(and yu can even do Fear with your Shots or just Take there weapons out of then.. i even did this with Myrkull just lought a lot..hauhauhauha)
Just Shoot and Ploft no more weapon Myrkull sorry.

(i Just dont know how yu will aply that in Jack of all trades Build.. becouse yu will not be able to get this especial shoots.. but Archery its STRONG AS F.)
i Bet many people didant realize that yet in the game..
(and there is a Amulet yu get in the Cresch that gave yu a ablity pretty similar to Hunters Mark.. yu can actually use it when yu run out of Spell slots and lost concentration in the Hunter Mark.. the 18 dex gloves too yu get there.)
(if yu want Mobility Get the Ring from the Goblin yu make Kiss your Foot.. Just dont push him into the watter.. kill him for the Ring always.. that shit Gave yu dont know..3m to walk around in evry turn.. for melee and mobility that stuff is Great..)
i always get when im melee becouse i can always move to targets pretty easy with it.

Your thread is misleading. Jack of all trades build, but then go about number crunching to compare archery and EB for a style of play, as you say, based on ranged attacks from darkness.

Maybe, just maybe, you are missing the point that it’s a cheesy way of playing, everybody has learned it from youtube and maybe even tried it. I know I did. But it’s not so interesting and definitely not the kind of gameplay expected for a JoaT build.

And there is no ‘consensus’, majority of people just play in ways guaranteed to succeed and then brags about their ‘solo’ runs.

That said, can’t indeed answer on archery because never focused on it myself, I went the EB route with a warlock and also wasn’t playing solo.That is a safe route to beat the game in whatever fashion you like I feel, as you also may have experienced. Without abusing it, using darkness is actually fun and stilish, many items support it after all. EB probably stronger than archery, but it’s just a feeling.

I am not entirely sure how it is misleading.

It doesn't matter if it's cheesy, or if everybody has learned to play that way.

I am not asking if melee is better than magic.
I am not asking what my plans/goals should be.
I am not asking if combat is necessary and how to approach the game with talk-no-jutsu.
I am not asking for opinions on how to approach JoaT or solo playing

I am asking for a very specific number crunching. It's a very specific and clear question - What am I missing that makes archery better than Eldtrich blast?

This thread has been the equivalent to
- How to solve that integral?
- Doing sports is better than math.
- What's going to be your major?
- You don't really need to do math, we have software for that nowadays
- You seem strangely fixated on doing that problem. Have you considered using oil paint?

The actual answer to the thread is just one bloody sentence:
EB is currently better because AI is bugged and because DRS exist.
(with a bit more info)
- Once melee AI starts going in for attacks you''ll need actual AC to have the same result - EB is locked into Potent Robe, archers can just go with any random Heavy armor.
- When they fix Sneak attack and Stalker gloves being DRS the DPS will be probably better on the archer's side.
- The only thing EB has going for it is - it can stun lock (Reverberation + Crits = Prone + Frightened = they fall down, can't get up).

Yeah, well. Maybe nobody has an answer. I’m suggesting that the people you’re referring to, those promoting dual crossbows for example, don’t have an answer and won’t come here to answer.

Expecially after seeing your various replies. Good luck.

A better title for this thread may have been: "Archery versus Eldritch Blast?"

I agree that the responses have strayed from the purpose of the post, but I can understand why. That said, I'm sorry I don't have more to offer the conversation. I've never taken the time to crunch all the numbers between the two.

I came here just wishing to point out this: with patch #4 released on 11/2/2023, BG3 has finally, correctly imposed the -4 damage penalty on every crossbow hit from off hands, unless an in-game feature/item is taken to remove the penalty.


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Unfortunately, I read the more recent posts...

BTW, I agree that the original post was indeed confusing, because it has unnecessarily included a lot of "irrelevant" information. Its most confusing part is its prominent emphasis on "jake of all trades," which can be an in-game class feat, a unique BG3 achievement, or just a regular phrase that merely means being equally good at lots of different things.


Or more to the point: "Dual Hand Crossbows vs Eldritch Blast"


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One more comment: Number crunching has its limitations and can be confusing and misleading.

I did a lot of number crunching when I was replacing "lightning charges" with "reverberation" for my first-playthrough character, which is a Dark Urge. I'm not bad at math. However, I know for a fact: past a certain point, such number crunching is going to be too simplistic to be still meaningful.

How so?

Just think about this: if a player character in BG3 can genuinely do an average of 51 or 48 damage per hit (as numbers may have misled us into believing), assuming the same character can naturally attack 3 times per turn, the average damage output per round of this character is about 150 per round. Given 10 full rounds, if not disrupted, this character can do an average of about 1500 damage. By such numbers, how long do you think it would take for this character to take down a sitting-duck monster (who can't move at all) with only 300+ HP in Tactician mode? Surely, it has 50% resistance to piercing damage, but that only makes it equivalent to a monster with ~700HP but no resistance to physical damage. To do a total of 700 damage should not need "1 grueling hour" or longer.

The total damage output of my entire Dark Urge party was only about 100~150 per round at the very best at the end of Act 2, not nearly as good as a solo character doing 150 averagely. But I do know for a fact: during my first playthrough, after my Dark Urge talked to the general, the entire ensuing battle was over in only 3.5 rounds. Yes, both the general (over 100HP) and the Apostle of Myrkul (300+ HP) were killed in a total of 3.5 rounds. No potions, no tricks, no pre-emptive strike. All 3 of my companions were stationed near the entrance when the battle started. I only followed what the in-game hints suggested. Everyone fought in a way fair and square. And that was my very first time being there. Only 1 of my companions took more than a little damage. It was a very easy battle to my Dark Urge party.

I think the lesson that could be learned is: The so-called number crunching in simplistic calculations does not paint a full picture.


Numbers can be very helpful, but they are meant to be suggestive only.


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The missing stuff, the truth, is:

In my opinion, while a full player party can fight every boss in the game fair and square yet never gets defeated even on Tactician, a whole-game solo char in Tactician mode has to find one or more ways to ultimately counter the underlying combat mechanism of this game. Yet, they can be defeated many times over (forcing many reloads thereafter). Which essentially means, the way how a solo char defeats the game is not something that simple number crunching can tell.

Here is another example that we all know: A level 2 Warlock can easily attack many bosses without facing immediate retaliation. However, number crunching cannot tell us why. BTW, I prefer to fight fair and square. So, my Wyll's (multiple versions) have never used such tricks in actual playthroughs.



Numbers have limitations. After all, BG3 is not a number game. I think the main reason why the original post failed to have solicitated an "acceptable" answer is because players in general play BG3 as a game, not as a number crunching home project of little merit.