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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I agree with the sentiment that there’s a difference between a bittersweet ending and an unsatisfying ending. Let me take Shadowheart’s ending, for example. Act three spoilers, so don’t click below if you don’t want to be spoiled. By any stretch of the imagination, Shadowheart has a bittersweet ending. She’s been tormented and abused for the vast majority of her life by sadistic maniacs, who kidnapped her parents and made her torture them, etc. And so that’s quite a bitter life to begin with. And then when she finally finds her parents again, she either has to kill them (as her father asks) and be free of Shar’s curse forever, or save them, and then they all are all cursed for the rest of their lives. Whichever choice she makes, this is a bittersweet ending.
But I’ll honestly say, as much as it sucks that Shadowheart has to make this choice, I’m willing to accept the bitterness as part of her story, and what makes her, her.
What I’m not willing to accept is the unsatisfying way in which it is subsequently handled. Like, for example, if she chooses to kill her parents, she pretty much breaks down crying in a cutscene while the player character stands stoic and just asks stupid generalized questions like “what’s next?” Now that’s unsatisfying right there. You can’t even have the satisfaction of comforting someone who you may have romanced. You also don’t have the satisfaction of a nice fully developed closing scene with her and more about the life that you would go on to live afterwards. Give me just a little bit, you know? More than her saying, “hey, come find me sometime.”
An ending can be bittersweet AND satisfying, or bittersweet and unsatisfying, and I think it’s not necessarily the lack of a happy ending that’s the problem, but the unsatisfying execution of the endings altogether! (Which makes sense, because we all know the game isn’t finished.)
Seems like folks are saying something similar about how unsatisfying it was that the other companions made fun of Astarion at the end, too, though I’ve never seen that myself. And as I’m sure you’ve seen on the Karlach thread, those endings are unsatisfying, because so much has been left unexplored with the Gondians, etc. So again, I would say that it’s less about an ending being happy or unhappy technically speaking and more about the player feeling satisfied or unsatisfied with what they’ve invested so much time in.
And I think it’s perfectly reasonable for a player to expect to feel satisfied, and like they’ve played a finished and fully fleshed-out game, by the time they’ve invested 100+ hours in it. Don’t even get me started on the conclusion to her personal quest/arc back at camp, dear lord. To add insult to injury this happens AGAIN in the actual ending of the game if you chose to let her parents pass, because she becomes upset in the epilogue and all Tav does is stand there like a lemon as per bloody usual. Can we please give her a damn hug! TWICE at that. I really don’t think anyone is complaining about bittersweet/melancholy or even depressing endings for a game or it’s companions. I’ve played plenty of games where these types of emotional endings work, even if it is sometimes upsetting. I want games and media to make me feel something after all, otherwise what’s the point in playing? The problem here is that it feels like there is NO ending in this game. All of them are under baked with shallow and rushed writing compared with the rest of BG3. A game that basically focuses on the relationships you make along the way barely shows anything in relation to that, let alone the narrative decisions we made and how they impacted the world around us. It just ends and that’s that basically. It felt completely emotionless for me. I literally felt nothing despite being heavily invested in the companions and world from the start until the last moment where it all fell apart.
Last edited by Moongerm; 24/10/23 01:28 AM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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I would prefer ending slides but that was never the norm outside Obsidian's RPG.
I agree with the consensus, I think everyone would fine-ish with non-happy ending but at least they be given closure for each major choices they made especially with companion.
I hope Larian continues to improve the ending, be it ending slides, better implementation of short narrative ending etc.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2023
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I would prefer ending slides but that was never the norm outside Obsidian's RPG.
I agree with the consensus, I think everyone would fine-ish with non-happy ending but at least they be given closure for each major choices they made especially with companion.
I hope Larian continues to improve the ending, be it ending slides, better implementation of short narrative ending etc. Ending slides were also the norm for BG2: Throne of Bhaal and later Bioware titles like the Dragon Age games. They aren't really that unusual for crpgs, for good reason. The Pathfinder crpgs use them too.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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I would prefer ending slides but that was never the norm outside Obsidian's RPG.
I agree with the consensus, I think everyone would fine-ish with non-happy ending but at least they be given closure for each major choices they made especially with companion.
I hope Larian continues to improve the ending, be it ending slides, better implementation of short narrative ending etc. Ending slides were also the norm for BG2: Throne of Bhaal and later Bioware titles like the Dragon Age games. They aren't really that unusual for crpgs, for good reason. The Pathfinder crpgs use them too. Norm. As in it's the standard in Roleplaying Games. BG2 has companion slide. The ending itself is just narration of basically "you are a legend now". There is no slide in BG1, Icewind Dale 1 & 2, Planescape Torment (you know, the rest of Infinity Engine games). Modern cRPG like Pathfinder inspired of what perceived to be norm (when it actually only happen in select few games and mostly if not all Obsidian's developed games) (and mostly Fallout). Also their ending mostly about companion, like it was in BG2. Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2 are Obsidian games, of course it has slides. I haven't finished Solasta and Black Geyser so I don't know if either of those has it. So, you know, it kinda hard to see how it is a norm when it isn't. Not that I don't want it, far from it, I want ending slides ala Obsidian in BG3 ending.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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Does Shadowheart even have endings? I could never get her to say anything even with her being in my party for the entire game. Nope. Only if romanced, at which point the endings are way too short (as is the case for all companions) but at least good for what we have right now (even if the dialogue choice in one of them is questionable, but at least you can just assume your character will say and do the obvious thing when it rolls to credits). None of them are perfectly happy, majority of her lines are about the negative aspects of the choices made, but at least the conversations end on a positive note with clear indication that you'll heal together in time (unless you 'unfixed' her, at which point you deserve what you get anyway). If you didn't romance her she may as well have drowned for all you know (she didn't know how to swim, after all), if she isn't the one assigned to give a one-liner. It's a good thing I'm romancing her in my Astarion origin playthrough then. Otherwise the ending might be me and Karlach both on fire on the opposite ends of the pier while Shadowheart's drowning and the rest of them just watch.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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A masterclass in twisty unhappy ending is pre-2012 Bioware. I've surely ranted a lot about that BG2 Viconia ending. Unhappy yes, but the journey towards it was a rollercoaster worthy of masterpiece CRPG.
If Larian can hire those veteran writers (they'd all left Bioware since), then there is some hope. As of right now, mediocre at best.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2023
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Well i just want to Feel anything better then have been slaped in a Face for act 1,2 thats asking too much from Larian ?
Sorry i Love the Game really Love the Game but.. Act 3 and the endings.. comom.
and i saw the recent posts Many people are feeling the same as me as i understood.. even the only endings i liked felt Rushed too.
and dont Get me Wrong.. i Love A Sad, Dark, Cruel ending like i Said Before in another Post.. i Love those in Witcher 3 and Persona 5 wont especify any of then becouse of spoilers but yu do get some pretty dark and cruel if yu really want go this way with the game.. but here.. in both endings feels the same.. dont know its like a Slap in a Face and Be gone.. yu just wasted your time with act 1,2 and dont forget to gave us a 10/10 and call it a Masterpiece. lol
(Fun Fact already have a Plenty of Posts and people asking for the Next Game and Expancion DLC when this game its not even finished just for yu to really understand..)
Funny thing..xD huahuah
Last edited by Thorvic; 24/10/23 10:04 AM.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Closure is what a lot of us want. I would accept a Return to Avernus expansion, for example, but if I had to choose between closure now or the hope of something grander down the line, I'd choose the former.
But another thing is, I want to feel like I'm taking part in what's happening. It didn't feel like that with Karlach. I felt like I was powerless to do much of anything. Those aren't the kind of tragic endings that feel earned.
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member
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member
Joined: Nov 2021
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I would very much like to have an ending similar to DAI, you have a party/gathering after a final boss fight. You can go around and talk to all you companions and important NPCs. And after come the slides explaining the state of the world as a result of your choices made throughout the game and giving more insight into what your companions are up to.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's a good thing I'm romancing her in my Astarion origin playthrough then. Otherwise the ending might be me and Karlach both on fire on the opposite ends of the pier while Shadowheart's drowning and the rest of them just watch. I've never played as origin character (other than Dark Urge) so I do wonder how that'll end up, because I know one of her ending has suggestions that may not be entirely compatible with Astarion's condition. I know playing as origin companion gives you their own unique ending cutscene, and it may overwrite that of the romance, too. Others who have experienced it would have to confirm/deny that.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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I agree that sad and unsatisfying are not the same thing.
Some bittersweet endings can be incredibly poignant, resonant, and satisfying (in their own way). Part of their power comes from our strong wish that things might have turned out differently. As such, people wishing that an ending could've been different doesn't always mean that an ending was poorly done.
I think an ending can feel unsatisfying when it seems obvious that something was left out, either by mistake or due to not having enough time. Other reasons can include a sudden shift in tone, which can have a variety of causes. The writing for a character or mission could have been handed over to a new person who didn't have the same vision, or who didn't have enough context to write material with a matching tone. Or the original writer could've decided on some "surprise" for shock or laugh value, or decided to do a bait-and-switch of some kind, and miscalculated the reaction they would get. (I'm just commenting in a general sense here, rather than suggesting that any of these in particular happened with BG3.)
I feel like having a good degree of openness in the game's ending is broadly good, as it allows people to imagine a lot of different futures. But I think that we generally want the ending for our character and companions to resonate with the themes we've experienced in their story and the choices we have made, to provide a meaningful sense of closure (which even an open ending can have).
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's a good thing I'm romancing her in my Astarion origin playthrough then. Otherwise the ending might be me and Karlach both on fire on the opposite ends of the pier while Shadowheart's drowning and the rest of them just watch. I've never played as origin character (other than Dark Urge) so I do wonder how that'll end up, because I know one of her ending has suggestions that may not be entirely compatible with Astarion's condition. I know playing as origin companion gives you their own unique ending cutscene, and it may overwrite that of the romance, too. Others who have experienced it would have to confirm/deny that. Well, at least Shadowheart will know how to swim lol. And in my first playthrough I lost my romance epilogue to Karlach's bug, won't be my first time.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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What you mean, Zentu, is called "open ends", but what we actually got is closer to "sloppy writing" (or editing - otherwise why so many mismatched dialogues?).
Tragedy can be good, and cliffhanger can be excellent, but midsentence stop only speaks of an unfinished product. Yes, this is a good point. "Open-endings" is majorly different than what we got. Ending an adventure in a way that leaves an opening for further adventures or stories is a good writing hack and if BG3 actually did that, as Zentu might be alluding to, I don't believe anyone would have an issue. But what we got were "unfinished" endings. They TECHINALLY leave it open-ended to for content, but it isn't because they provided a platform for closure with the possibility of more adventure. It's because they just didn't finish anything.
#JusticeForAstarion
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Astarion starting to burn and having to run away from the docks and companions WHO praised him for becoming a better person suddenly crack underhanded jokes about it. Sure, have Astarion slowly scorch in the end, but have our MC react to it appropriately. When I heard Minsc's line "BOO WILL BRING YOU A SUNFLOWER!" I legit wanted to grab that hamster and violently ram it up Minsc's throat, so he'd shut up. It's how bad all the mocking is really. And the fact that the MC just stands there with a smirk on their face doesn't help. Do...do they really do that? They MOCK him? Why the frickety frick would our companions, our FRIENDS, whove weve come to love and trust with our lives, WHY WOULD THEY TURN AROUND AND MOCK HIM LIKE THAT?! After all weve been through together?! And you dont even get the option to console him or scold them? This seems out of character for everyone, why would Larian do this
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Do...do they really do that? They MOCK him?
Why the frickety frick would our companions, our FRIENDS, whove weve come to love and trust with our lives, WHY WOULD THEY TURN AROUND AND MOCK HIM LIKE THAT?! After all weve been through together?! And you dont even get the option to console him or scold them?
This seems out of character for everyone, why would Larian do this Yup, they do. I made an entire thread about it - the Fixing Astarion's "Good" Ending. Whoever wrote the ending - because I absolutely refuse to believe that the person who wrote Astarion's character did this - seems to be really into the idea of toxic badboy vampire boyfriends, and actively hates you for not going down that path.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Do...do they really do that? They MOCK him?
Why the frickety frick would our companions, our FRIENDS, whove weve come to love and trust with our lives, WHY WOULD THEY TURN AROUND AND MOCK HIM LIKE THAT?! After all weve been through together?! And you dont even get the option to console him or scold them?
This seems out of character for everyone, why would Larian do this Yup, they do. I made an entire thread about it - the Fixing Astarion's "Good" Ending. Whoever wrote the ending - because I absolutely refuse to believe that the person who wrote Astarion's character did this - seems to be really into the idea of toxic badboy vampire boyfriends, and actively hates you for not going down that path. If this needs to be moved to your thread let me know, I WAS trying to avoid it because spoliers but this is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. We are all becoming friends and allies in spite of our differences, characters that diddnt get along at first start to show sympathy and compassion for eachother as we start to see eachothers struggles, and they legit make fun of him in his most heartbreaking scene?! REALLY?! So what was all the friendship that I thought was building between the characters throughout the game a total lie or what?
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2023
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They feel more incomplete than sad imo.
Idk how I’d feel if it turned out the endings are like this for dlc purposes.
On one hand I can see karlach’s avernus ending being a perfect set up for dlc, but as it is most of the others are so abrupt that it would feel like they just… chopped off the ending altogether to sell to you later.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Probably a Buffy fan who wanted to make Astarion Spike. For my Shadowheart however...a well developed ending for her should include the variables of white or black hair and parents or no parents. I might have also included a check on how much gold you have saved. Duke Ravengard might name you a new Patriar family with Shadowheart and which title you get depends on saved money. Starting with Knight if your funds are low, all the way through Baron, Count, and maybe a Tav that has over 100k gets names Duke. At 200k maybe you can even replace Gortash as archduke. All through the power of money.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2023
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Well yu know what its the Most Sad Part in all of It?
i really love the game for real but The Shit Show that this game has already became to me.. i actually was forced to Gave Up.
Maybe Next Year if they actually fix the Game i gave a Try again.. But as it is now ? im Done for real..
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2023
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I consider bittersweet endings to be the most memorable ones. The best endings I remember in fantasy stories was of course LOTR and Malazan Book of the Fallen.
The issues I had with BG3 endings were (no spoilers):
1. Cut brutally short. Let us savour those moments. Let it sink it.
2. Very bitter and little sweet for some characters.
3. Shallow and not reflecting the plethora of choices we've made with our heroes (or villains?) during the stories.
BG3 allows everybody to create a character and narrative that just belongs to you and it is wonderful. I think that endings should reflect that. Do you want to be the hero that saved the day? Sure thing, run extra mile, find a way and make people happy. You need a bittersweet one, as there is no victory without sacrifice? Sure thing, it is your story. You want a dark ending? Embrace it.
The game deserves that final cherry on the cake like no other game in the last decade.
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