Exploits matter and should be addressed. And Withers is an easy one to address. What’s your problem with removing it in a new mode Gottfried? Since you think you are the better player and the only one not exploiting the game your conclusion is that ‘it doesn’t matter’?
It doesn't matter as it would not change the overall difficulty of the game on tactician for most players. Lets take Withers, would removing him raise the difficulty level of combat? No, because nothing has changed, the NPCs are no tougher, their AI is no more intelligent, and their melee/spell options they have would not have change. The difficulty level of Raphael fight would not change, the encounter will preform the same with or without Withers.
Removing respecs from tactician only impacts players using respecs to complete the game because a) tactician is simply too difficult for them or b) they have chosen to make it difficult for example soloing boss encounters so they can video it. I suspect the majority of players playing tactician don't fall into camps a) or b), I certainly don't and I suspect neither do you. So removing respecs would not increase the challenge for them as it would not fix the fundamental problem, that tactician is not that much more challenging than balanced.
Personal speaking removing respecs will make it more difficult for camps a) and b), but it does nothing for me. I certainly don't have a problem with some players using respecs to make the game easier for themselves, be their reasons a) or b). But some here do seem to have a problem with camp b) soloing boss encounters so they can video it. Removing Withers will certainly make soloing more difficult and that's the real motive for those asking for these fixes, it certainly won't make tactician or a higher difficulty mode more challenging for the majority.
Exploits matter and should be addressed. And Withers is an easy one to address. What’s your problem with removing it in a new mode Gottfried? Since you think you are the better player and the only one not exploiting the game your conclusion is that ‘it doesn’t matter’?
It doesn't matter as it would not change the overall difficulty of the game on tactician for most players. Lets take Withers, would removing him raise the difficulty level of combat? No, because nothing has changed
You state the obvious and like the previous poster you only look at yourself. It doesn’t matter for you. But I think you miss the implications.
If exploits in general are not removed first (and it hasn’t happened yet, right?) there won’t be an acceptable reference to even start talking about gameplay changes, of the kind requiring full Q&A and testing, like redesigning combats.
Combats difficulty could be increased at will until, go figure, even you will turn to exploits to beat them. How about then? That’s not a good goal.
Btw, exploits sometimes means ‘exploitable features’ here. Larian knew what it was doing when introducing Withers.
Removing Withers doesn’t require any tests exactly because it doesn’t change anything in gameplay. That’s why I think it would be an easy move. But for an Honour mode it would certainly make the game closer to a better experience for experienced players, and for D&D purists too. You could already play without Withers: let’s make it a feature. So we cut from the discussion tens of possible builds that use exploits, things like cleric Gale with Warding Bonds, respeccing at will any time, expendable hirelings in a mode that should focus on survival of companions.
Otherwise talking about combat and resources redesign doesn’t make sense.
And I reiterate, taking away hirelings matters a LOT in Honour mode. What doesn’t matter is if YOU, or I, have not been using them.
Tbh, I don’t see items suddenly becoming unavailable or combat suddenly change from the current implementation. Maybe some % increase here and there. Best scenario, XP curve redesigned.
But the possibility for Honour mode to be just Tactician is still on the table. At least let’s focus to make it ‘Honour’ for community members that can’t stand to self-imposed restrictions. Tactician mode will remain as it is for those that actually enjoy exploiting games, they should have their space without people calling them ‘mentally ill’. When community doesn’t pretend it’s min-maxing I also enjoy seeing things I would never discover the way I play.
Hint for Larian: hostile Withers in Honour mode! No respecs, no hirelings.
Repetita iuvant, as it seems there are hardheads objecting even to the most easy and simple implementation to do.
I’d also ban build videos that 15 minutes in suddenly go… “and then you respec after finding these gloves”. But it’s harder to implement.
None of this matters. Respec is there for minmaxers with OCD, but it doesn't actually affect the gameplay. You only complain about it because you can't stand the idea of someone exploiting it. Or using it in a video. In a single-player game. Which probably means you're a minmaxer with OCD, but I digress.
I give a serious suggestion to improve the game, removing options in a higher difficulty mode (not in every mode of course) because these options are exploitable, therefore against the purpose of an higher difficult mode.
There are exploits derived from features, and even if in a single player game they are not that important they tend to put the game itself in a bad light. Community know them, why not ask for their contingent removal? Inevitably, the community itself is showcasing exploits, what I don’t like in some parts of the community itself is the way some exploits are treated as ‘normal’ min-maxing.
Exploits matter and should be addressed. And Withers is an easy one to address. What’s your problem with removing it in a new mode Gottfried? Since you think you are the better player and the only one not exploiting the game your conclusion is that ‘it doesn’t matter’?
Who do you think you are Gottfried? Think you’re entitled to address me that way? You are the kind of hardhead I was referring to, even came out to reply with a personal attack confirming it. I don’t know why the mods are not banning you. All you care is to underline how you played the game fair, while all others according to you are idiots (your words); OCD minmaxers (again your words); giving irrelevant suggestions because only you know ‘the real problem’ (your contribution to the thread). What a douchebag. If they ban me instead for this, it was worth it.
Anyway. Have another hint for Larian: no shared XP for companions in camp in Honour mode. Another easy (afaik) implementation.
I apologise for my acerbic tone. But the fact is that you overstate how much Withers actually changes in a regular playthrough. I can see how Withers would matter in a solo playthrough with no party members, but at that point you're already doing a self-imposed challenge. Just go and self-impose a tiny bit more. When you have a full party, any benefits will be somewhere between imaginary and miniscule.
Withers isn't a gameplay feature, he's a quality-of-life feature. It's a long game. Maybe when I'm 50 hours in, I want to try out something else without having to start from the beginning.
But sure, make a non-Withers mode, just as long as it isn't tied to the difficulty, i.e. there should also be a highest difficulty mode with Withers. I'd make him a menu option, but you know, he already basically is a menu option, so this seems like such a non-change to me. It certainly doesn't help me to have a more challenging playthrough.
Apologies accepted. And presented. But I hope Withers suggestion could still be heard.
I’m 100% sure everybody in this thread can complete Honour mode at first attempt with the game as it is. I would prefer something in the range of… let’s say 1 success in 5 attempts.
Many others would succeed at first attempt, Withers is just there to guarantee it even if gameplay difficulty is raised.
But if we had to limit ourselves to cripple the odds, then what’s the difference from now?
I think the foremost reason for the game feeling too easy now is foresight. Either from having played the game before, or from getting tips online. I don't know how the advantage of foresight can be negated, but more randomness could be a part of the solution.
I think the foremost reason for the game feeling too easy now is foresight. Either from having played the game before, or from getting tips online. I don't know how the advantage of foresight can be negated, but more randomness could be a part of the solution.
Exactly. Knowing the twist the AI has in store for any given fight makes the fight much easier. Rehearsals make for great videos.
I apologise for my acerbic tone. But the fact is that you overstate how much Withers actually changes in a regular playthrough. I can see how Withers would matter in a solo playthrough with no party members, but at that point you're already doing a self-imposed challenge. Just go and self-impose a tiny bit more. When you have a full party, any benefits will be somewhere between imaginary and miniscule.
Withers isn't a gameplay feature, he's a quality-of-life feature. It's a long game. Maybe when I'm 50 hours in, I want to try out something else without having to start from the beginning.
But sure, make a non-Withers mode, just as long as it isn't tied to the difficulty, i.e. there should also be a highest difficulty mode with Withers. I'd make him a menu option, but you know, he already basically is a menu option, so this seems like such a non-change to me. It certainly doesn't help me to have a more challenging playthrough.
You clearly don’t know what “quality of life “ means.
“Quality of life” feature is something like a new button that lets you organize your inventory;
Quality of life is the magic mirror they implemented.
Having either of those or not changes nothing as far as the way you play the game. It’s just that: quality of life
Withers is in NO way “quality of life” thing it’s literally game changing mechanic that you need to self restrict if you want more balanced gameplay. Game Dramatically changes with withers.
With withers I can start as a monk or thrown barb as they are ridiculously powerful early game then out of the blue can turn into bard when I get the top level archery gear and then I can turn into paladin if I need tankier build for a boss.
I don’t need to think ahead , I can totally swap my stats based on items like the dex gloves or the constitution necklace in act 3 .
Again that’s not “quality of life” that’s build and gameplay defining feature .
I can kill Minthara with ease because I can always respec wyll or Gale as my paladin so a major decision about doing evil path to get a class you can’t otherwise get becomes pointless.
I can make my companions that are not supposed to be crazy strong like Shadowhearth trickery domain into powerhouses like Tempest/ sorcerer that are capable of soloing encounters on their own because clearly the game have been balanced with the idea that companions will be whatever class they were originally given.
Again that’s not a “quality of life” that’s OP build enabler that allows for a team of 4 fully optimized builds in a game that’s been clearly balanced without respec in mind .
Anything that changes balance in the power level of the build is not “quality of life” , quality of life are cosmetic features or features that only saves a bit of time like fast travel.
Withers absolutely needs to go to achieve proper balance , I’d even go further as to suggest that companions needs to remain in their original class and not be allowed to multiclass or at the very least have to have the majority of their points in their class : like Shadowheart needs to have at least 6 -7 points in cleric and can only be trickery until she betrays shar in which point she can change to Light or Life or with a persuasion check to a different domain.
It’s much easier to balance the game around 3 pure class predetermined companions than around the idea of 3 fully customized optimized build multiclassed ones .
In short Withers is 100% a gameplay feature not a Qol feature
It’s much easier to balance the game around 3 pure class predetermined companions than around the idea of 3 fully customized optimized build multiclassed ones .
In short Withers is 100% a gameplay feature not a Qol feature
If any fight can be won with a solo super build why does it matter what can be done with companions?
I agree with your point that Withers is a large advantage to the player, but I also can see how having the ability to re spec allows a player to experiment and learn the game more quickly. This, in fact, makes Withers a QOL feature. I mean if I had to play a new game to experience every build combination it would be pretty stifling to my game QOL.
It’s much easier to balance the game around 3 pure class predetermined companions than around the idea of 3 fully customized optimized build multiclassed ones .
In short Withers is 100% a gameplay feature not a Qol feature
If any fight can be won with a solo super build why does it matter what can be done with companions?
I agree with your point that Withers is a large advantage to the player, but I also can see how having the ability to re spec allows a player to experiment and learn the game more quickly. This, in fact, makes Withers a QOL feature. I mean if I had to play a new game to experience every build combination it would be pretty stifling to my game QOL.
It would be nice if Withers was a setting.
Withers is just not needed to win any battles. It's not an advantage to respec your character in the game because you simply don't need to respec your character to win. As such, it's more a waste of time than anything else. I do see how it's useful for folks who want to experiment, and especially for streamers who want to make videos of various class combinations. But to actually get an advantage in combat? Shrug. Once you get a 100 on a test, you can't beat the test any more hard.
Beating Minthara was mentioned above. This is not hyperbole, nor is it bragging: give me a character class. I will start as that class and initiate combat immediately in the goblin camp, starting with the guard area... then, without stopping, I will continue into the courtyard area, still fighting, then I will go through the doors, still fighting, and I will fight my way to Minthara and beat her. All without stopping. Along the way, i will take out Gut and Dror, as well as any other gobliin that gets in the way. I have done this more than once.
I used to do this sort of thing all the time back in EA when the level was capped at 4.
The balance needs a serious overhaul. Getting rid of Withers isn't going to cut it.
*
We need better AI. much better AI. We need more enemies. We need fewer potions and elixirs. Camp supplies need to be seriously rationed. We need Honour Mode. We need no rest areas. Haste should be entirely removed from the highest difficulty level.
What we don't need are inflated stats and hit points on the enemies.
It’s much easier to balance the game around 3 pure class predetermined companions than around the idea of 3 fully customized optimized build multiclassed ones .
In short Withers is 100% a gameplay feature not a Qol feature
If any fight can be won with a solo super build why does it matter what can be done with companions?
I agree with your point that Withers is a large advantage to the player, but I also can see how having the ability to re spec allows a player to experiment and learn the game more quickly. This, in fact, makes Withers a QOL feature. I mean if I had to play a new game to experience every build combination it would be pretty stifling to my game QOL.
It would be nice if Withers was a setting.
Again, QoL isn’t something that affects balance in any way or shape. It’s like if the devs make a new toggle on/ off feature that lets you insta kill your enemies, you would come here and argue that’s a Qol feature because you can toggle it on and off and just saves time as you would eventually win the fight anyways .
But it -Does- affect the actual gameplay.
One of the reasons I can solo everything so easy is because I can fine tune my build for every encounter, something I wouldn’t be able to do without Withers.
Like my end game solo build relies on me having 8 constitution so I can utilize the constitution necklace from Raphael , however if I couldn’t respec I would have to make it to act 3 with just 8 constitution in order to have this optimized build which would significantly increase the difficulty for me from act 1 to 3 .
And if I decide to go with 14 CON to start with then the medallion wouldn’t optimize my build to such extent this I will be weaker .
Same goes for boss encounters, I always trivialize Grym fight because I always respec Someone to monk for the extra damage on constructs so I just beat him up in 2 turns with ease.
But if I don’t want to play monk as my main then I would have had much harder time in this fight if I can’t respec back.
Some encounters like Ethel in act 1 I can solo as a monk but I can’t even get close as a bard for example while late game it’s the opposite.
But with withers I can be a monk when I fight Ethel and grym and a bard when I fight House of grief for example.
This is hardly a “quality of life” thing, it really screws the gameplay as you can single handily offset any disadvantage from your class by just respecing .
And same goes for companions: if the game is balanced based on what the devs gave you as far as companions things would be easier as you can balance the end game with the idea that say wyll would Just be a maxed out with top gear warlock - not a warlock/ paladin with top paladin gear etc .
And also would make the evil path an actual gameplay decision as you would have to decide weather a paladin like Minthara would be worth losing a warlock and a barbarian and a Druid - with withers it’s not a decision as you just respec wyll to paladin and that’s it- you don’t lose any items or anything, Minthara is just a cosmetic as you can have a paladin with easy respec.
Right, Larian meticulously balanced the game around such things as exchanging your Barbarian and Warlock for a Paladin, and Shadowheart being underpowered.
Dang, I wish they used some of that attention to detail when designing the actual combat.
Right, Larian meticulously balanced the game around such things as exchanging your Barbarian and Warlock for a Paladin, and Shadowheart being underpowered.
Dang, I wish they used some of that attention to detail when designing the actual combat.
You can beat the game with trickery cleric and yes she isn’t supposed to be a powerhouse mass killer. There are several items that still makes he powerful even in act 2 like the mass healing bonus action spell with the ring that gives bless on heal and the gloves that gives blade ward.
She is only weak relative to other top OP builds like tempest/ sorc etc.
Otherwise if you know what you are doing she is perfectly fine as a trickery cleric
We need better AI. much better AI. We need more enemies. We need fewer potions and elixirs. Camp supplies need to be seriously rationed. We need Honour Mode. We need no rest areas. Haste should be entirely removed from the highest difficulty level.
I can't argue with that. The problem is there will be people who will complain and they first and foremost want to make money. I would like to see a difficulty level above tactician that was Tactician plus which had those types of deeper restrictions. It would really add to the choices one would have to make. I like it.
Making the "AI" better, or more effective in action, is not as easy as it sounds, I'm sure. Simulating reactive behavior, and keeping performance in check is tough.
Quote
What we don't need are inflated stats and hit points on the enemies.
I think this does help. Each battle is nothing more than a damage per turn equation. So adding HP to your target in affect reduces your damage per turn. Increasing your opponents stats in affect increases their damage per turn.
We need better AI. much better AI. We need more enemies. We need fewer potions and elixirs. Camp supplies need to be seriously rationed. We need Honour Mode. We need no rest areas. Haste should be entirely removed from the highest difficulty level.
I can't argue with that. The problem is there will be people who will complain and they first and foremost want to make money. I would like to see a difficulty level above tactician that was Tactician plus which had those types of deeper restrictions. It would really add to the choices one would have to make. I like it.
Making the "AI" better, or more effective in action, is not as easy as it sounds, I'm sure. Simulating reactive behavior, and keeping performance in check is tough.
Quote
What we don't need are inflated stats and hit points on the enemies.
I think this does help. Each battle is nothing more than a damage per turn equation. So adding HP to your target in affect reduces your damage per turn. Increasing your opponents stats in affect increases their damage per turn.
The “people will complain “ thing doesn’t hold anymore . They did this entire “playsexual” thing with their romances out of fear that “people will complain “ if they are forced into certain gender in order to romance whoever they want and guess what? People complain even more than ever that everyone is hitting on them and that there is too much gay content .
This “people will complain “ so we will make every game easy and homogenized needs to go away.
If you have issues with Withers not in the game then play easier difficulty. Same with nerfing special arrows, potions, camp supplies etc.
Give the tourists a tourist mode, which they already have “explorer “ and give the actual players who likes the satisfaction of beating a difficult encounter their own mode.
This is a video I made of the final battle on Tactician:
I soloed it in 3 turns as a lone wolf without ever needing any Allies or companions.
There is zero urgency or feeling of threat in the game, the entire concept of going out there to to quests for various NPCs in order to get them to aid you in the final battle is pointless .
As I can squash the dragon, illithids and the brain like bugs.
Because of that alot of the features the game gives you becomes just pointless cosmetics- the companions , the final battle Allies and the decision you made regarding to them.
It’s a lot of fun to feel like a god squashing everything and everyone but it would also be alot of fun if you beat a really hard game and the feeling of a hard won battle
I also focused on the possible respec exploits when discussing about the opportunity to remove Withers (or rather his services, considering he has some lines and a little role in the story).
But the initial suggestion was focused in particular on the removal of hirelings in an Honour mode. Unless I misunderstand how it works, having an hireling taking the place of a dead companion invalidates the mode entirely. And a full party throughout the whole game no matter what happens really makes the probabilty of a dead main character very slim. Where’s the challenge?
Hence my other suggestion, removing shared XP. But let’s not stop here, let’s make max party size 3 while we’re at it. Maybe reduce the number of raise scrolls (or remove them, revivify spell would become very valuable).
So you have Tactician, no respecs, you have to choose 2 companions (or more by switching them but they’ll level up more slowly) and you must stay alive to the end. Losing a companion would be a big loss compromising the advancement, expecially if happening later in the game.
I know it would be more difficult. More than self-imposed hardcore solo runs using various kind of exploits that currently exist.
On top of this there could be a difficulty increase through other means. But first, exploits should be taken care of. Today I saw the one involving spell slot items giving infinite sorcery points. Absurd. There’s no meaning in modified gameplay, like limiting haste, until these exploits are in.
I agree that some implementations in this game are sloppy to say the least. In any other game they would have caused a reputational problem for the developers. It’s not that the game is easy, it’s the fact that you can cheese everything if you want to, that is very disappointing. Too many ‘unwanted’ interactions… like I said, sloppy development or Q&A in this regard.
If you have issues with Withers not in the game then play easier difficulty. Same with nerfing special arrows, potions, camp supplies etc.
Give the tourists a tourist mode, which they already have “explorer “ and give the actual players who likes the satisfaction of beating a difficult encounter their own mode.
I am currently in Act 3 on my third playthrough, my second on tactician mode (first playthrough was balanced). This playthrough is the first time I ever used Withers and respec, at level 2 I respeced Shadowheart to War domain. Not to make it easier, but just to experience another subclass as I am never going to play a Cleric as my main. Just like I have done at level 3 with my other party NPCs, that I am unlikely to ever play as a main. This play through Astarion is an Assassin previously he has been Arcane Trickster and Thief and I have played at least 2 of the possible subclasses for the other NPCs, Paladin excluded.
Respec is a quality of life feature and that is exactly how I have used it respecing Shadowheart to War domain. Because Clerics and Paladins choose their subclass at creation level 1 unlike the rest of the NPC classes you can party with who choose their subclass at level 3. Sure respec in tactician mode can be used as you have done in your impressive solo videos, but why would I with a party of four when I find tactician mode beatable without any form of min/maxing.
I never multi classed or tadpoled, I not even optimised my main's specs and I have completed tactician without resorting to respecing*. So removing Withers would not increase my satisfaction of beating a difficult encounter.
I actually have no problem with not being able to respec it should be an additional selectable choice to the difficulty modes and available at release. RPGs of old and some even today have a lot more options than just 3 difficulties the difficulties could be fine tuned such as choose a difficulty and add some options from the higher difficulty. Along with additional options such as Ironman, perma death. I have a feeling that this new difficulty mode will be something like Ironman such as single save perma death for party wipe and no respecs.
But if that's the case it should have been there at release and it would not make encounters more challenging which is what is needed.
*To be honest not even optimising the party unless their presence was required to complete a quest or I was forced to use someone else (Orin kidnaping Lae'zel) my party was always Ranger, Lae'zel, Karlach and Astarion.
If you have issues with Withers not in the game then play easier difficulty. Same with nerfing special arrows, potions, camp supplies etc.
Give the tourists a tourist mode, which they already have “explorer “ and give the actual players who likes the satisfaction of beating a difficult encounter their own mode.
I am currently in Act 3 on my third playthrough, my second on tactician mode (first playthrough was balanced). This playthrough is the first time I ever used Withers and respec, at level 2 I respeced Shadowheart to War domain. Not to make it easier, but just to experience another subclass as I am never going to play a Cleric as my main. Just like I have done at level 3 with my other party NPCs, that I am unlikely to ever play as a main. This play through Astarion is an Assassin previously he has been Arcane Trickster and Thief and I have played at least 2 of the possible subclasses for the other NPCs, Paladin excluded.
Respec is a quality of life feature and that is exactly how I have used it respecing Shadowheart to War domain. Because Clerics and Paladins choose their subclass at creation level 1 unlike the rest of the NPC classes you can party with who choose their subclass at level 3. Sure respec in tactician mode can be used as you have done in your impressive solo videos, but why would I with a party of four when I find tactician mode beatable without any form of min/maxing.
I never multi classed or tadpoled, I not even optimised my main's specs and I have completed tactician without resorting to respecing*. So removing Withers would not increase my satisfaction of beating a difficult encounter.
I actually have no problem with not being able to respec it should be an additional selectable choice to the difficulty modes and available at release. RPGs of old and some even today have a lot more options than just 3 difficulties the difficulties could be fine tuned such as choose a difficulty and add some options from the higher difficulty. Along with additional options such as Ironman, perma death. I have a feeling that this new difficulty mode will be something like Ironman such as single save perma death for party wipe and no respecs.
But if that's the case it should have been there at release and it would not make encounters more challenging which is what is needed.
*To be honest not even optimising the party unless their presence was required to complete a quest or I was forced to use someone else (Orin kidnaping Lae'zel) my party was always Ranger, Lae'zel, Karlach and Astarion.
And I use withers to trivialize encounters which I wouldn’t be able to without him.
I soloed house of Grief with a warrior who I respeced to take “war caster” feat before the fight just so that his haste from The bow doesn’t get interrupted.
I also respec my Sorc / lock to sorc 6/ assasin 4/ warlock 2 just so I can get the assasin surprise attack and also have devils one with shadows warlock invocation- once again this build would be very suboptimal if I level it all the way without respecing as it would only be good for this specific encounter and would be very suboptimal in most other encounters.
Without withers I would have had to go with a lot more balanced moderate builds and wouldn’t be able to trivialize these encounters as I wouldn’t have had access to All the tools needed to solo them and trivialize them.
This isn’t Skyrim where you could be everything all the time by design, a master wizzard but also a master assassin and a master crafter, you are supposed to be “either this OR that” and with withers you can be everything you want any time.
And I use withers to trivialize encounters which I wouldn’t be able to without him.
I soloed house of Grief with a warrior who I respeced to take “war caster” feat before the fight just so that his haste from The bow doesn’t get interrupted.
I also respec my Sorc / lock to sorc 6/ assasin 4/ warlock 2 just so I can get the assasin surprise attack and also have devils one with shadows warlock invocation- once again this build would be very suboptimal if I level it all the way without respecing as it would only be good for this specific encounter and would be very suboptimal in most other encounters.
Without withers I would have had to go with a lot more balanced moderate builds and wouldn’t be able to trivialize these encounters as I wouldn’t have had access to All the tools needed to solo them and trivialize them.
This isn’t Skyrim where you could be everything all the time by design, a master wizzard but also a master assassin and a master crafter, you are supposed to be “either this OR that” and with withers you can be everything you want any time.
I would argue that 99% of players who find tactician too easy don't use withers like this.
Larian could entirely remove Withers from the game, but that wouldn't impact the difficulty for me, not one bit. The game would still be too easy, and I would still be in these threads pleading for a higher difficulty level.
I whould not care to. Not even if they remove all elixirs or haste or darkness or suprise or tadpoles. My problem is not that the game is to easy with 4 party members. My problem that the game is to easy even with 1. In a multiplayer game this is a problem for me and my friends and family. Because 1 person kills everything and the other are just watching the show.
Every on saying this is a single player game. But the motto is gather your party.
