Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Autsim Tags

Ok, so this is probably an extremely niche issue, but maybe not. You never know until you bring it up...

Being autistic, I often have trouble gauging modes of speech. Like, I get what sarcasm is (though most people seem to think all irony is sarcasm), but sometimes I don't get *when* sarcasm is being utilized. Or I miss obvious jokes. I don't buy into large conspiracy theories, but April Fool's Day is a nightmare and I purposefully ignore all media. Just a quick explainer as to why I'm bringing up this subject.

So, I remember having all sorts of problems when I played Mass Effect for the first time. It was the conversation prompts. In ME your character talks, but what they say doesn't ever match what the prompts were. In one instance, this led me playing through as a male Shepard to inadvertently react to a rude reporter by ... punching her in the face. It's a game, but I had extreme problems with that.

Of course, Tav doesn't speak, so one is left with the conversation prompts being Tav's part in the conversation, which in many instances is fine. But in some cases, one gets the impression that the conversation prompt is really, "And then Tav says something along the lines of..." and I sometimes worry "along the lines of what, exactly?" And there are other times when I just can't tell the tone. My reality matrix is different than most people's, so my unspoken language that leads me along the lines of anything is often tangential at best to the majority of the population.

What I'm proposing is an accessibility feature that would be optional. With the option enabled, chat prompts could be disambiguated by mood tags: "Helpful," "Antagonistic", "Sarcastic" that could help someone like me choose the reaction they intended, rather than having to guess and savescum at points. Or, as above, to avoid conversation options we don't understand altogether, potentially leading us to miss lots of story.

I know this seems like a really little thing, but autistic people, and others with neurodivergences, who have problems identifying the quiet part people aren't saying out loud (and not all of us do. it's a spectrum not a dot) have a hard time of it. Have you ever mistaken satire for truth on a social networking site? If not, go find someone that has and read the reactions. I mean, I'm not Einstein or anything, but I'm not the village idiot either. It sucks to be made to feel small by the mistaken belief someone was using words literally and not ironically. And it really sucks to have to worry about that in a game, because single-player games are often the one place where I *don't* have to worry about stuff like that for once.

I'd actually like to see this become an internet standard for social networks as well. As long as it remained optional, people could still enjoy the intellectual frisson of *realizing* something is satire or sarcasm, and those of us who don't enjoy it, or aren't capable, could still participate without feeling like we were perpetually wearing a dunce cap. (I want to end with: I've never been made to feel like I'm wearing a dunce cap by the forums. People here are quite pleasant almost always.)

Without commenting on the suggestion itself, because it's 1am and I'm tired... I will put in a little side-note, just in case it's any reassurance.


Rest assured, this has nothing to do with whether or not you're on the spectrum in any way (though it understandably will feel like it does, for someone who experiences these sorts of social hurdles in other circumstances). The vast majority of people have complained about this at some point, and it's a frequent issue of poorly communicated prompts that you will be able to see lots of flak for. You are not alone, I promise.


Neither do any of the rest of us, I promise you! There's no way to tell until you try it out, unfortunately. Some will make assumptions one way or the other (that it's fully antagonistic, that it's jovial and jokey, etc., etc.,) and those who assumed correctly will be quick to say that it's 'obviously' intended that way to others... but the reality is, there's no real clue, and anyone making those assumptions is guessing as much as the rest of us. They just happened to think similarly to the writer of the line in that particular case.

I've got absolutely no objections to wanting more clarity about the tone and intent of the choice you're making for your character - and it's something that I think everyone would benefit from, spectrum or otherwise (and let me be honest here, I lean strongly towards the idea that the concept of 'neuro-typical' is a theoretical concept that doesn't really exist as a tangible thing that can be pinned down or pointed to, and that everyone's mind works just that little bit differently from everyone else' and there is no such thing as a completely neuro-typical person... and that's okay. What matters is that we do our best to be understanding of one another, forgive our misunderstandings when they occur, and do our best to clarify when we can).

I'd add that, as well as tags (hidable/revealable, ideally) to indicate tone or mood of response options, ones to indicate whether you're speaking truthfully, speaking with intent to deceive or betray a promise where appropriate, and other such things, would all be extremely helpful for a game with conversation trees as twisty as this one. Far too often already can you say a thing to appease an enemy or put one over on them, only to have your companions turn around and hate you for siding with the villain - because there was no way to communicate your deception to the game, distinct from actually doing what you say.

Guess I did end up talking about the suggestion as a whole. I should go to bed ^.^

I understand you are intending to be reassuring, but I assure you it absolutely does make a difference. Sure, everyone can misunderstand an ambiguous tone, but when that misunderstanding is something inherently different about your brain chemistry that it happens in every day situations - work, school, wherever - that it impedes life in a way it doesn't for others, carrying that forward into an escapist pass-time is inherently different. Like, perhaps you've never ended those poorly-stubbed ME conversations thinking, "Crap. Am I ever going to understand <i>anything</i> anyone says? I have a physics degree! Why can't I understand words?"



I respect your right to have a differing opinion about neurodivergence and neurotypical brain chemistries, but one assumes you have the luxury of doing so from a somewhat safe space where it is an intellectual exercise, not a matter of quality of everyday life that often makes what other people consider to be normal social interactions a hellscape. My issue with that line of thinking is that it seems to be the same as telling someone with depression that "it's not that big of a deal. I get sad sometimes, too." Though I know it isn't your intention, that often comes across as "you'd get it if you just tried a little harder." A blind person isn't ever going to read the text, no matter how hard they squint.

Think of it as language fluency. I systemically do not understand the unwritten language that seems to enshroud verbal or text communication. Call it nuance, if you will. So pretend it's Spanish. Now, you might speak very good Spanish, but no one knows every Spanish word. I can't speak Spanish, though I know a handful of words and phrases. From your position (presumably but I could be wrong. From a normative position, let's say), you can function in a Spanish-speaking world. From mine, I cannot very well do so without assistance that "Everyone misunderstands a Spanish word now and then" just doesn't cover, no matter how kindly meant. And, before the metaphor gets stretched too far, I would learn more Spanish if I could. I really would.

It's not a matter of dipoles, but of the hit-and-miss ratio. Misunderstand a few Spanish words here and there, no biggie. Misunderstand 60-70% of what's said... biggie. And a huge psychological burden to have to sort through each and every day trying to figure it out. (Imagine having to pull out a Spanish-to-English dictionary for every conversation that wasn't completely straightforward and literal. Looking a word up now and then? Sure. Stopping everything to look up every 2nd, 3rd, or 4th word... drudgery.)

Sure, everyone is on a spectrum. A lot of them, I imagine. But when you're leaning heavily towards one end, and most people are at the other, life becomes more difficult because quality of life is built mostly around statistical norms, from everything to right-handed scissors to the standardized sizes of clothing.

But I do understand that your intention was harmonious, and I agree it's on all of us, not one group, to communicate better and more thoroughly.



Yes, I definitely had something that just wouldn't show up at all unless you wanted it to in mind. And I support the whole speech mode (deception, flattering, honest, hostile) thing as well. Especially since there are a number of after-battle chat interactions that automatically kick in when the last body drops. Which means getting the chat option wrong means doing the whole thing over.

Just want to say the suggestion is immediately plausible. Same as the introduction of accessibility features for color blind people has been. I think it wouldn't even be very complicated to implement such tags. So maybe they'll do it, if this thread gets some attention.

In the meantime I wonder, if you have the option to use mods, would overexplained interaction options give some indirect help to understand certain dialogue choices?

Thanks for that! I have avoided mods up to now, what with other issues. But once the next hotfix is out that's one I'll definitely check out.

Okay so I’m auDHD and I support the inclusion of tags like that, with a toggle on or off switch, if that’s helpful for folks. But personally I don’t think that I would use that because it would break the immersion for me I guess? Now that I’ve got a good feel for the game and the characters, I can better guess how they will react. But I can see how tags would’ve been really helpful when I was first getting to know these characters. Maybe then Shadowheart wouldn’t have threatened to gut me for trying to probe into her mind LOL

What's interesting to me is this whole idea that, at least in the game, we have a telepathic worm in our brain which could bypass the inefficiency of spoken language in some of these instances, but it would require more in the set up, allowing us to project or code-switch that via the prompts. Something like a grammar for managing this aspect of the play I guess, to cut through the fluff there.

I just wanted to latch onto that metaphor about speaking Spanish for a second, cause unless it's Blood in Blood Out, I fail there instantly lol. I think I failed highschool Spanish what, like 3 times maybe? Absolutely convinced I was just entirely incapable of learning a foreign language. It was so hard for me.

Only much much later did I realize that the problem wasn't so much the Spanish, but the fact that I'd never learned English grammar, or ever had someone bother trying to teach it to me, so I had no real point of reference there. I learned to read late, and am still the worst typist I know, but it was deeper. Basically I had grammar, but no technical descriptive language for it, like to understand how it was opperating in the language I already spoke, rather than the language I was trying to learn. If that makes sense.

Instead I had acquired grammar, like most speakers do for the mother tongue, through experiment, or trial and error in early childhood, without having to actually think about it much after that.

To understand what was going on as an adult, I first had to ditch Spanish 2, and learn a dead language instead (go figure! Lol). In my case Ancient Greek, which is not really like learning a foreign language at all, so much as it was learning how to read a dictionary (Liddell & Scott) and a grammar (Smyths) with some purpose, which then made it possible for me to reflect and think about what was happening for my own native tongue in a more meaningful way. It was like flipping a ligh switch, I just needed a cypher, or for someone to paint me a picture. I needed those glyphs and abbreviated side bars in the margins, to help guide me through it all.

This was way easier for me in the low pressure environment of translating some very old tome, as opposed to say asking for directions while trying to find a bathroom. Fear of spontaneous time travel aside, you'll never meet anyone who speaks it living, so it was just a different vibe there, right hehe. Anyway, main idea is that it would be cool, if the game could help us parse stuff in a similar sort way. Just so the game could also serve as lower pressure environment, in which players can figure all this stuff out, in situations where the stakes aren't quite as high. You know, cause it's a game.

Maybe the game could do something like that, but parsing the prompts?

Gestural and emmotive communication is universal in a way that spoken language isn't, and where the latter often fails, you can still make some headway if sticking to the basics sometimes, like the human face and figure or especially the hands.

If they had a Faerun equivalent of ASL and a character to showcase it, or a perhaps something like a pair of characters, so one could play proxy translator on the fly, that would be rad! I mean I just imagine the mileage one could get out of that even if on a purely aesthetic front. Especially if the game could build this out into the general characterisation somehow, so it gets into the marrow. Things like that could knock on into other arenas.

Accessibility is sometimes presented as a bonus in these sorts of games, but done right, it could elevate the game in a way that benefits all players and all player characters. Like once you get that foot in the door, something that seems like a niche novelty, could open a whole new approach to characterisation.

Worth kicking around at least! I think anyway, so just had to nod right quick hehe

Featuring accessibility as characterization options in an RPG game is way beyond what I was considering, but such a cool concept that now I can't let it go. Sort of like that episode of ST:TNG where a crisis negotiator that was non-verbal used not only sign language but a trio of telepaths to communicate for him. Everyone gets their own Boo! Or a fighter/mage duo where one handles communication and/or translations would be a cool little side-story, or at least character set.

At the very least, I've always wanted a better handle on what my own character, Tav in this case of course, is saying when I talk to others. One should reasonably be able to assume they know whether they are trying to be sarcastic their own selves when talking to someone else, even if everyone were all in the same boat as far as discerning the speech modes of others.

The more I think about Niara's response, the more unacceptable I find it. Where in the HELL does anyone get off lecturing someone about their own life (and then following it up with a much lengthier and even more condescending lecture in private message that included how I'm making an us-and-them dynamic out of my own life with a caution I have no business making any statements about hers)? WHEN in the hell did it become acceptable to act like someone with an accessibility concern needs to hear opinions about how their differences aren't "real things you can point to"?

I guess I should be grateful that the forums are run on such out-of-date software that they are unreachable for most of the day.

NO ONE WITH AN ACCESSIBILITY CONCERN SHOULD EVER HAVE TO BE DEFEND THEMSELVES.

You want to be some conspiracy-theorist and flout documented science to make yourself feel superior? Great. Do it on your own time.
What's next? Black people cause racism. If gay people just thought more about the opposite sex they'd change?

I just... can't.

BG3 is pretty much over for me at any case. I've played through my four times. The bugs are too much. Larian's horrible community support (like by providing forums run on a machine powered by Boo's wheezing great-grandfather)... and I can't even use those forums without some idiot telling me my own reality isn't what I think it is and heavily suggesting it's my fault because I insist on being different?

Just yuck.

See ya on the flip side, but hopefully not. I thought this was a community at last. Instead, I've requested my account be deleted. Who the fuck wants to justify their own existence to a bunch of goddamned gamers?

Dude, just block that poster and continue. You're bound to bump heads with someone in the forums and the settings anticipate it.

I have seen mods where the hidden dialogue mechanics are revealed. Very handy if you're having trouble with say raising approval with a companion.