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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Dec 2023
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After 1.75 playthroughs (both custom, no DUrge) and watching a ton of videos on routes I didn't take, I just wanted to give my feedback. I'm going to assume that absolutely every thought I've had has already been said by someone else before, and this is just one more review to add to a pile of data. First of all, I loved the game. There were very, very few moments when I would say I actually had a bad time, but there were times when I definitely felt like things didn't always live up to expectations. Main Story - Act 1 I feel like this was definitely the strongest section, and no wonder, since it went through a lot of tinkering in Early Access. My main gripe with it was that my first run missed out on a number of character interactions due to not understanding how the camp events worked, as well as my own stupidity at somehow walking past every companion except Shadowheart until after speaking to most of the Emerald Grove.
I especially loved the tension between Shadowheart and Lae'zel and how their personal stories were linked to but not strictly central to the main plot. Like, Lae'zel pushes very hard to reach the creche as a potential cure for the parasites, one she believes very strongly in, but it's still technically "optional."
The encounters themselves also felt like they had a wide variety while somehow feeling cohesive, like encountering a burning building and saving the people inside, only to learn that the attack was related to the same cult we were dealing with; or the way the we have to wade through the conflict at the grove in order to reach the healer we were looking for. It all felt very well-crafted, and I was genuinely impressed. Biggest complaint would be that whenever we side with one faction, it usually involves the entire other faction turning hostile (looking at you, children of the goblin camp and the creche), but I can understand from a gameplay standpoint. Main Story - Act 2 There were parts of Act 2 that still felt really strong to me. I loved the cutscene of meeting the Harpers from the Underdark approach, as well as the introduction to Last Light Inn. But in this zone overall, things started to feel a bit... thinner than in the previous act. Perhaps that was partly the point. But in some cases, it's hard to say. Things like Isobel coughing as though sick seemed like they would lead to more than they did, and it feels like several companion quests just have nothing to really latch onto here. The town of Reithwin especially stood out to me as having three interesting, quirky mini-bosses... but not much sense of purpose for being there or interacting with them? It felt like they were meant to be important to secondary story threads that don't actually exist.
While I was somewhat interested in Ketheric being built up as the enemy of this act, I felt like his actual motivation just felt a bit... uninteresting. I won't quite say "bad," but just boring, perhaps. And the fact that there isn't much else going on -- we don't see Gortash or Orin up to anything yet, and Raphael's appearances are brief and largely unrelated -- it definitely felt a lot weaker than Act 1's many little storylines. Similarly, the plot with Thaniel was moderately interesting, but it just felt so disconnected from the main plot or core companions that I wasn't sure what to make of it. Main Story - Act 3 Act 3 was really where it started to feel like, despite having a ton of moving parts, things were still not quite as fleshed out or connected, in ways both big and small. In terms of the big ones, I feel like the game wanted very badly to give us choices, with the end result being that some of those choices felt rather watered down or lacking a real punch. Act 3 Orin vs Gortash Gortash and Orin are in a rivalry and want to recruit the player to their side. But... the game lets you get away with being very non committal, with almost no side effects. And both of them are going to end up dead, regardless. And for being villains, neither of them asks the player to do anything particularly villainous to earn their support. Gortash wants you to kill Orin, and vice-versa. That's kind of the opposite of a villainous request, given it was already our goal. I also feel like it created the sense that both of these idiots were just standing around, watching you chip away at their forces while keeping up the pretense of an alliance. I'd much rather have encountered open clashes between the two of them where you could either pick a side, or have the obviously-harder version of the fight where you fight both at once.
My personal wish would have been for this section to play out something a little more like this: Taking Ketheric's netherstone has thrown their plans off track. The Netherbrain itself is leading the army of the Absolute and has not yet arrived in the city. Gortash and Orin are scrambling to prepare for its assault, as they no longer possess the power to command it. In order to regain control over it, they will have to fight through or withstand its army long enough to reach the brain, just as the finale already demands. Gortash has not yet secured his position as archduke, although he is well on his way. Functionally, this means that he cannot just have the heroes thrown in jail, as there is enough scrutiny on him that his opponents would simply recruit them. Gortash's object is to bribe or replace the remaining holdouts to convince them to get him full military control and invoke martial law to fight the oncoming army. Orin sees a different opportunity -- kill all of the city's leadership, including Gortash and his lackeys. Let chaos reign, open violence in the streets, and court enough favor with Bhaal for her and the other Bhaalists to slaughter their way through the brain's army. The heroes fall into the middle of this mess. They also know they need to gather the three netherstones and reach the brain. They can either side with one of the villain's plans, or they can attempt to thwart both villains and somehow restore the leadership of the city. Regardless, there will be a number of key figures in the city that need to be killed/defended/persuaded/bribed/etc. Having one of the villains on your side may make the approach to the brain much easier, but it may only delay the confrontation with that villain and create a much harder version of their boss fight in the end (or a harder version of the showdown with the brain, such as a battle against both the villain and the brain's defenders).
I think this would have made both villains feel a bit more proactive and threatening while still trying to work with the existing story we're given. Make it about fighting over the resolution of certain sub-quests, where Orin and Gortash are arguing over it and the heroes may have a third option. Act 3 Murder Targets Quest Speaking of sub-quests, I found the murder mystery(?) quest initially very interesting and then later a bit disappointing. I was very confused and concerned by how far the clown parts had been spread, and I enjoyed having to actually dig for details about the priest's murder. But then, when getting to Duke Stelmane, a character who seemed like she was going to have far more significance, the murder investigation was... nothing? Just basically "Yeah, she was on a cult murder list" with no further delving into who she was, what she was up to, and why she was on this list (and why she wasn't better-protected as a duke). I understand that we get some details on her from the Emperor, but that only makes me wish even more that there had been more to do with this storyline in the present, not just in his reflections. Especially since there's one dialogue branch and several small lore items revealing that he is not remotely trustworthy on this matter. I thought investigating her "sickness" and ultimate death were going to reveal so much more about our companion, and while some of that information is technically there, having any real payoff for finding it isn't. Act 3 Finale And finally, the choices related to the Emperor, Orpheus, and the Netherbrain just felt... pointless? Maybe not in-universe, but as a player. There are a number of dialogue options that make it seem like we should believe that trusting the Emperor is a far worse bet than it actually turns out to be. He's not planning to betray us, or take over the brain for himself, or even make us his thralls. He... does exactly what he said he would, and then returns to being involved in a morally dubious organization that doesn't seem any worse than working with the Guild. Orpheus is made out to be a key figure to a rebellion movement, but the githyanki civil war is not the main plot here, and frankly, his "You should have let us kill you attitude" is not exactly endearing. Plus, siding with him just means someone else has to turn into a mindflayer, whereas it originally seems like the main reason to avoid the Emperor is because he keeps pushing your character to do exactly that. I was incredibly confused when, in siding with the Emperor, he did NOT push my character / party to finally accept the tadpoles I'd been refusing the entire game. I expected that to be the moment I might have to oppose him. Aside from not wanting to anger Lae'zel, I saw no reason NOT to side with him in that moment, especially not when either he or Orpheus HAS to die. I was incredibly frustrated with the Emperor's unwillingness to let us talk to or even attempt to negotiate an alliance with Orpheus, but forced to choose between them, I'd go with the guy with a proven track record of being very helpful.
And in the end, unless you're playing as an evil character, I saw no real reason to be tempted to take control of the brain. Perhaps such is the point, but between that and the fact that the Emperor is not inclined to betray you, it made this moment felt like a non-choice, really. A bit underwhelming compared to wrapping up some of the companion quests like Shadowheart's and Astarion's, but better than an unhappy ending, I suppose. I'm glad to have gotten the epilogue. While the main story was a bit so-so at the ending, a number of the companion epilogues did make me smile, and that definitely helped my playthrough end on a high note. Astarion's Quest I really liked Astarion's character arc. My notes here are more like nitpicks, but they were things that nagged at me a little.
Early on, I do wish he was a little easier to romance as a good character. I almost missed the ability to romance him since I got approval later and had to travel back to the first zone to get the camp scene to trigger, but later on, approval was no issue at all. In particular, it felt like he was just allergic to doing side quests, which was a bit annoying as someone trying to see all the content.
In Act 2, there are two versions of the relationship conversation he can have that are exclusive to each other, but I really wish they weren't, or that they could be recut slightly depending on whether you talk to Araj or do the Gauntlet quest first.
My biggest complaint about Astarion's quest is how it seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the main plot. This somehow doesn't stop it from being a compelling story, but there are times when I did feel like "Really? You couldn't think of some way to connect these things up a little more?" Like, does Cazador even know that the cult of the Absolute exists? He's a reclusive noble, sure, but he's also an ancient vampire watching this all happen in the city he calls his food supply. I was expecting him to have some ties or Gortash, Orin, or Ketheric, even as passing acquaintances, but instead he was dealing with a devil that we never meet. Karlach's Quest Our poor girl. Her emotional scenes are amazing, and while I was initially feeling like her storyline was too sparse, I think her emotional arc of needing to be willing to confront Avernus in order to have a chance to survive was still a good one. If it weren't for the epilogue, I would be so depressed about her story, but with that addition, I think I just wish it were slightly better hinted at that the clues to finding a way to fix her engine may be found in Avernus, if only she could be persuaded to go (for most of the story, I wasn't really equating the "Can't we find a way to fix you?" and "You need to go back" options, as I had no real reason to think that the answers would be IN Avernus). And perhaps that she will only go if someone is willing to go with her, never alone. But the emotions hit hard, either way. This is one of those stories I'd be afraid to touch for fear of breaking what worked about it, even if there are ways that I wish there had been a bit more going on with her quests.
For another nitpick... It's implied that Gortash and Zariel were in league for developing the infernal engines that would later be used in Gortash's Steel Watchers, but it also seems like Zariel opposes Gortash now, given Mizora's dialogue. It feels like there was a thread here that's relevant to Karlach's story that wasn't really explored, one which could also perhaps add more depth to Gortash and Mizora's stories, as well. Gale's Quest I like Gale, but there are some things in his story that are hard to get a handle on. At first, he talks about how his fatal flaw was crossing Mystra's boundaries when she said not to, and that seemed like the kind of personal growth lesson he would need to learn. But then Mystra sends word that she wants Gale to blow himself up, which makes "listen to Mystra" now seem like a terrible lesson. And then Gale starts obsessing over the crown in a way that definitely made me go "Did you learn NOTHING?" (but hey, at least it was a dialogue option). And then later Mystra appears and says she'll accept the crown instead of asking him to blow himself up. There is a logic to all of it, but the emotional thread gets a bit tangled in it.
One main thing I thought about during the last stage was that I really wish that it had been Elminster who suggested to Gale that he offer to return the crown to Mystra as a sort of compromise between Gale wanting to uses its power and Mystra wanting Gale to self-destruct, rather than either character flipping their position so abruptly. Plus, I think that would really fit Elminster's role here as a bit of an intermediary between the two. Lae'zel's Quest I absolutely loved going through the Act 1 stage of this quest, up through Lae'zel's crisis of faith about her queen. That was some great stuff, enough that I actually didn't mind that she didn't have much going on in Act 2. I think my feelings about the Act 3 segment might be more reflective of feeling like Orpheus is in a weird position of sort of being strongly tied to Lae'zel and no other character while also being weirdly positioned right at the center of the main plot. It also felt like Vlaakith appearing in Act 3 to try to win over Lae'zel was a bit... redundant. She didn't really offer anything new, and we'd made our choice in Act 1 / would reaffirm our choice when meeting with Voss.
Personally, I actually really like the ending where the rebellion continues without Orpheus and instead reaches out to the other gith faction, as otherwise, it seems like they'd always be a bit too much of the violent warrior extremists no matter which side of the civil war won. Learning some diplomacy and appreciation for non-githyanki seems like the best outcome, even if they may not have agreed with losing Orpheus to get there. Shadowheart's Quest I have mixed feelings about this. There were some highs and lows. I liked her initial tension with Lae'zel and the mystery around the artefact and why Shadowheart was sent to retrieve it. I also liked the recurring sense that she was being lied to by Shar in some way.
But the confrontation with Viconia just felt... undeveloped? The idea that Viconia wanted the artefact to fight the Absolute just seems like the weakest answer, and one that did not necessarily explain all of the details around this subplot. I especially don't get why Shar would be against Viconia in the other version of her story, but I didn't play that one myself. Still, the final encounter with her parents was emotional, so it saved the story in some ways. Wyll's Quest Oh boy. Wyll's quest. I initially had some very high hopes for this. Meeting Wyll, he initially seemed like too much of a gallant hero. But then, his encounter with Karlach, and the way he's almost willing to kill her just to avoid facing the fact that he's been played, suddenly made him more interesting. I thought I was about to get a story of a man realizing that he's been tricked into doing some very bad things while thinking he was more heroic than he was, and that turning into a devil himself would help him learn that and bond with Karlach. That is... not what this storyline was.
I expected Mizora to send Wyll on increasingly dubious tasks, especially as punishment for defying him, but that didn't happen. We also didn't learn of any other assignments that were more than they first appeared. Getting out of his pact was surprisingly easy, at least in the Act 2 stage of getting Mizora to agree to it just for freeing her. Later, the choice surrounding Wyll's father is just.... confusing.
I refused Mizora's offer with the idea in mind that eternal service to Mizora and Zariel would result in them demanding that Wyll do far worse things than the death of Duke Ravengard, as painful as that loss might be. Plus, Mizora was offering her help in the matter, and I figured that we could at least make the attempt to save Ravengard on our own, even if it fails. But immediately after this, all companions act like Ravengard is definitely dead. I ended up doing the quest with Ansur first, and boy did that make for a weird experience. In this case, the Emperor is the one who gives the speech about Wyll being the true hero (which feels VERY manipulative coming from the guy who's responsible for the death of the city's protector in the first place), and then Wyll does some verbal gymnastics about first presenting the idea that maybe he could be a duke, but then maybe he should be a hero, or maybe he should go hunt Mizora, and then listening to whichever I pick. And then we rescued his dad, who also tried to tell us about the dragon, and then that storyline just kinda ended.
I saw a video of someone who accepted the pact, rescued Ravengard, and THEN did the dragon quest, and I will say that returning to Ravengard and having HIM be the one who tells Wyll he's a true hero and suggesting that he become duke makes a hell of a lot more sense than the version I got, but it still feels a bit off to me.
Wyll's quest just felt like it had zero WYLL in it. He had like no real character growth (contrast with Astarion) and no real emotional struggle or pain to work through (contrast with Karlach). And this is despite having like five different reasons that he COULD have those things, from his pact with Mizora, to his relationship to his father, to the damage being done to his home city while he was away, etc. I am absolutely boggled by the fact that the Emperor somehow got more character development and central focus in WYLL'S dragon questline than Wyll did.
The only thing keeping this from being a total flop for me was the ending where Wyll volunteers to go to Avernus with Karlach. That felt like the ending that his initial quest was building towards... but the middle was just not at all aimed at it. I could even see a situation where Wyll is torn between becoming a duke to replace his father and be the leader his city needs -- or go to Avernus with Karlach, fight the devil who's been manipulating him, and free a friend who needs him. But the ending wasn't really the issue, it was everything leading up to that. The Emperor's Story I have such mixed feelings about this character. For one thing, I feel like I'm confused about what the game "expects" me to feel about this character.
In the beginning, the Dream Visitor likes to play the "I was an adventurer, just like you" card while hiding the fact that they're a mindflayer. Cool. I like that. But then, it's later revealed that they used to be Balduran, founder of Baldur's Gate, which really seems to detract from the idea that they were "just another adventurer." I wasn't a fan of that, especially since Balduran hadn't really been set up as an important character to the story at hand. (And see the above rant about how putting this reveal in WYLL'S quest was just weird)
Later, it seems like the game wants you to feel like the Emperor isn't trustworthy and is a manipulative entity that you might want to get away from. But almost nothing he ever does created that impression for me. The sole exception being the time when he almost refused to accept Minsc into the party and would have forced us to kill Minsc, if not for the PC and Jaheira being so adamant about it. This kinda stood out to me in my second playthrough when I played around with options like accepting Raphael's deal and trying and failing to hide it from the Emperor, just to see what he'd do about it. And he doesn't do anything. He reads your mind and yells at you, but he never DOES anything. All his threats feel kinda hollow.
The other thing is that I wish we could have more of an impact on the Emperor himself in some way. I mainly wish we could suggest teaming up with Orpheus and that past interactions with him may make this easier if we'd proven that we did care about the Emperor's wellbeing rather than seeing him as a monster. I also think it'd be nice to be able to influence his methods of interacting with people going forward and perhaps what he does with his freedom, as we do with the other companions. Part of me wishes there was an option to help him reconcile or make amends for the way things ended up with Stelmane / Ansur, but with both of them dead, that isn't exactly possible.
I actually liked his backstory with Stelmane, too. It's very interesting to see him initially present it as though they were excellent partners, only to (possibly) later reveal that he broke her mind by trying to control her. I would have liked to be able to explore that a little bit more, with corroborating facts other than his own telling of it, since it seems like the kind of thing that could either be taken as a moment that made him realize he needs to treat his friends better (if he didn't mean to for it to her hurt as much as it did) or as one that cements his colder nature (if he decides that this was a perfectly fine thing to have done). Much of his dialogue feels like he's teetering on the edge of going either way, but there's no resolution to this feeling. I suppose I was also expecting that overthrowing the Emperor and Stelmane would have been a larger part of how Gortash came to power, but so little of that connection is explained. Suggestions for the Emperor My thoughts for the Emperor would first be to make him appear more manipulative and controlling of the party, to match the impression the game seems to want you to have, while also making this the way of influencing his own arc. I'd probably give him a few general powers / methods: 1) Allow the Emperor to use his own psychic powers to manipulate nearby NPCs 2) Have him threaten to expel party members / allies from his protection 3) Let him take direct control of characters to make a point
For example, perhaps even in Acts 1 and 2, the Emperor could "subtly" influence nearby NPCs such that, whenever the party is asking about the nature of the astral prism, or the Emperor's past, or anything else that the Emperor might not like, he nudges their dialogue such that they can't seem to recall, or lose track of the conversation, or otherwise steer away from it. Nothing painful, not even terribly malicious, but clearly manipulative.
Then, in Act 3, there is a perfect opportunity for the Emperor to potentially just directly mind control the party. When you arrive to help him subdue Orpheus, the game already railroads you into siding with him. So, why not... simply have the Emperor himself enforce that? If you refuse, or even if you simply hesitate for too long, the Emperor gets frustrated with you and takes control of your party to finish the fight in a hurry, and then releases you again and attempts to present himself as being reasonable again. If they really want to show that fighting the Emperor is just a game over, then maybe it can still be an option afterwards, when he's even more exhausted from trying to mind control the entire party and cannot keep it up any longer. Following that, I think I'd show him interacting directly with some of the companions a bit more, generally arguing with them over something. Maybe this involves him controlling them if they're trying to make a show of defiance, or maybe they're the one trying to persuade him of something and are currently failing. The argument over Minsc and the Shadowheart vs Lae'zel event come to mind.
As for the topic of the arguments, I don't think I'd add any new quests for this -- I think the Emperor should have more opinions on the resolution of existing quests. For example, Astarion is considering becoming a vampire ascendant. There are a couple main ways I could think for the writers to play this -- the Emperor could argue against it, as he would rather keep Astarion weak and manageable, both now and after the fight with the Netherbrain, and you just know that line of reasoning would only incite Astarion further. Or, the Emperor might see a more powerful Astarion as a very useful pawn against the immediate existential threat, Astarion's mental wellbeing be damned. Or perhaps even some third options, like being against fighting Cazador at all for some reason. Right now, the only questline he really has opinions on is Lae'zel's, for obvious reasons, and I wish that there were more potential consequences to openly planning to free Orpheus when he disapproves of it -- such as threatening to evict Lae'zel from the party, if he cannot be persuaded to allow the hammer to be retrieved as a potentially useful tool.
I personally also find it strange that he has so little to say about Gortash and Orin, given that they murdered his friend/favorite minion and captured the Emperor himself. I suppose you could say that reinforces the idea that the mindflayers aren't very emotional, but on the other hand, the Netherbrain itself is described as being "angry."
With the Emperor being more opinionated and usually advocating for sabotaging the party's agency to some extent, I think that would help motivate the player to either want to be rid of this guy or wanting to push through a character arc about not mind controlling your supposed friends. Some mix of successful diplomacy with him on other secondary quests and giving him a bit more of an actual companion quest of his own could determine whether he ends up being more respectful and willing to listen, or whether he's forever stuck in the idea that his ideas are the only right ones. Pets / Loose Ends I really wish there were just a few more lines from each of the camp pets. Even if it's just when changing acts / camp locations. I was surprised when neither Scratch nor the Owlbear had thoughts on seeing the Shadow-Cursed Lands, nor of finally reaching the city after that.
In particular, the interaction with the post office kennel master just felt weird as it is. You have to volunteer the information that you have Scratch... only to refuse to give him over? I think this interaction would flow much better if Scratch had asked to go see his old home, and then this NPC approaches YOU like "That is my dog. Hand him over."
And while I love the big armored Owlbear in the finale, having *some* buildup to this would have been greatly appreciated. I didn't even realize Dammon had SEEN the Owlbear, let alone fitted it for armor behind our backs.
I was also just a teeny bit disappointed that Us didn't get any acknowledgement in the epilogue. My headcanon is that my characters asked Omeluum to adopt it.
These things are the sort of minor loose ends that the later acts felt like they were full of. Game-breaking? No, not at all. But if they were cleaned up, it would have felt so much better. I don't know what kind of content updates we can still hope for, but I'll cross my fingers for at least some improvements in Act 3 and maybe some little bits here and there.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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There is a *lot* to unpack here. I might not touch on everything. THE EMPEROR Okay. Just... I don't like the Emperor at all. Maybe he could've worked if he wasn't so godsdamned linear. He always forgets our previous conversations - even if I tried to kill him, or threatened to do so. 'Hey, let's bang. I already have my shirt off'
Just prior to Act 3 you get this 'okay, now you have to choose moment' wherein you can side with the not-githzerai.... And then, the game doesn't let you. So, you're stuck with him until the very last....... Where he JOINS THE ABSOLUTE? Noooo.
Secondly, he *is* a villain. But siding with him, you never get the consequences for that.
Lastly - the bit where.. Oh, that's Wyll's Quest. Well, let's do that first.
WYLL's QUEST I don't like how Wyll has absolutely ZERO agency. He might as well be one of the tieflings and it being 'Mizora's Quest'. Hell, come to think of it, Zevlor has a better arc than Wyll does.
Then, his dragon quest. What a load of nonsense.
You should totally recruit the dragon. Well. Dragon was already dead, Emperor killed him That's fine, if you can defeat a dragon, we didn't a dragon. Hokay. The Emperor turned out to be Balduran. That makes no sense, we will never speak of this.
LAE'ZEL's QUEST I really like her quest. It has something to keep in mind from early on in Act 1 to the very literal end. It is entirely woven into the main story.
That also means, that if you don't have her in the party, the whole main plot falls flat on its face. NO more Voss, no more reason to free Oprheus, no more 'why making a choice here is important' In my first two playthroughs, Lae'zel died at the hands of Shadowheart and it wasn't until later how much more sense the main plot makes with her around.
The way I see it, Lae'Zel is the main character. Not Tav, not Durge, Lae'zel is.
Gale's Quest doesn't really kick off until Act 3, which is a long time into the game. Other than that, I feel it's fine. I like how he has a stake in the Main Plot. Astarion's Quest, I hate to say, I've not too much to say on. I don't like Astarion. I've killed his master, but never with Astarion actually around. I don't care. He's wrritten for very specific demographics of which I am not a part. If Astarion didn't have something very handy to do in Act 2, I'd never have him in my party ever again. Maybe on a super evil murder-hobo run, but I don't like how that plays out. Shadowheart's is fine, whichever way it goes. I like it well enough. I wish it had something more of an impact on the main story. But, only Gale and Laezel have a connection to the main plot, so.. I guess it's fine. Orin v Gortash is, again, fine. I wish they were antagonists earlier but we don't meet them until it's basically over already - and it's already established they're just in your way and not the big bad at all. Pets are fine. Look, I will never ever get enough of the Owlbear Cub so anything that has more Owlbear cub would be great. But by the same token, I know that most players have this towards Astarion.
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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I feel that Gale's quest lacks a conclusion. All other characters get a concluding moment for their quest within the game, only he hasn't one. You can watch his conversation with Mystra - which you shouldn't be able to witness as you even get told right before it happens that you cannot be part of it - but he doesn't get a moment to make his feelings about the conversation known, which for him as a companion is much more important than the exact content of the conversation. Other than that, I think think the pacing of his quest is pretty good because the Crown is just the plot twist that challenges his previous perception. It's temptation, another way out - like the ritual is for Astarion. Of course I didn't see the first post at first *coughs* I don't think there is a problem with the thinking in Gale's quest. At the end of Act2 basically everyone can have realised that blindly trusting their gods is not a good thing to do. If you let do Gale as he wants at the end of Act2 he will blow himself up and fullfill Mystra's commands. If he continues he sees the Crown as an option to take fate in his own hands - same as Astarion with the ritual - he at this point has realised that someone who asks you to kill yourself and many others for a quick easy fix problem, might not be worth of his devotion either. He might have also realised that Mystra's command is not only aimed at the absolute but also at the magical artefact that Elminster did not mention. I feel - much like for Astarion - grabbing for the Crown is parts struggle for autonomy and part revenge. Which is fine. You can talk Astarion out of the ritual and you can talk Gale away from the Crown.
I also feel like Mystra didn't consider Gale *had* anything else that he valued in life but Magic, so once he shows that he really wants to live, she gives him a way out. I am fine with that. It feels like two people/entities who once cared about each other making up. And I found it rewarding that, at the end of his Origin at least, their relationship feels like a healthy one. They are on good terms again and that is nice.
Last edited by Anska; 25/12/23 12:07 PM.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Dec 2023
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Secondly, he *is* a villain. But siding with him, you never get the consequences for that. This is the part that makes me feel like they weren't quite sure what they were doing with this character / the final choices in the game.
Half the time, interacting with him, it seems like they wanted a companion-esque character whose story you could influence. Some of the interactions for showing empathy towards him seem to garner genuine reactions, while other comments he makes, like being exasperated whenever you show interest in his human life or the way he describes keeping Orpheus imprisoned as a beautiful sight, suggest that this isn't a "good" person. But the only time you get his most evil-sounding dialogue is if you're frankly pretty antagonistic towards him, and with the context, it seems far more like a response of "Fine. You want to interact with an evil mindflayer? I can be an evil mindflayer." Except he still doesn't actually DO anything to you because again, all his threats are basically hollow.
The other half of the time, it seems like the game wants you to see him as a villain, exactly like you said. The problem is... it just can't back that up. He can't do anything to the party or to their allies. He doesn't seem to have any evil plans (I am, again, forever shocked that he didn't want to control the brain). He doesn't even intend to force you to become a mindflayer. Where am I supposed to see a villain in this, aside from keeping Orpheus imprisoned for his own self-preservation? I think I've seen it said that the Knights of the Shield are evil, but... that's not really established very well in THIS story. Considering one of our battles is choosing between the Guild and the Zhentarim, letting the Emperor return to running his own syndicate seemed about on par with that.
Basically, I don't think he's a good person, but he doesn't seem to rise to the level of a true villain, either. As far as the story of this game is concerned, he just wants to survive, and while he's willing to do evil things to get there, he generally seems inclined to cause the least amount of trouble possible if the opportunity presents itself. It also happens that his survival aligns with the party's survival and the city's survival, which is why it seems to me like he doesn't feel like the villain of this story, even if he could be in another one.
I've heard people justify his decision to join the Absolute if you side against him, and while I can sort of see what they're latching onto, it just feels very forced. His whole strategy up until that point has been attempting to side with the party and use the party; it seemed like that moment called for him to attempt to force the party's hand or otherwise control them, not just... leave. I wouldn't even call that a villainous move. It's just bizarre.
I definitely agree that his scenes need to remember more context of how you've treated him before. It makes no sense for him to try to come onto a character who's already expressed some serious dislike for him (It already felt weird on a character who HAD been nice to him, given that he's the one who's like "I have no need for human relationships" half the time). It's especially weird to me because they made this a character who is with us through ALL of the acts, and who's part of a seemingly major choice in the final battle, but then made him so unaffected by anything else we've said or done in the entire game? It just feels either unfinished or like they were trying to walk back earlier ideas they had.
Orin v Gortash is, again, fine. I wish they were antagonists earlier but we don't meet them until it's basically over already - and it's already established they're just in your way and not the big bad at all. Yeah, they're... fine. The feeling that they're just "in the way" is a good description but not exactly a good way to feel about two characters that were supposed to be major antagonists. Or at least, I thought they were, given their introductions. At least I have no objections to fighting them, but when the game makes it seem like there's some reason to choose between them, I would have liked to actually feel that effect, instead of it just being a matter of which order you tick the boxes. I didn't even consider what the game would feel like if you didn't have Lae'zel / lost her early on. It was definitely one of the highlights of Act 1, even in a playthrough where I kept her in camp until it was time for her quest zone. It also felt like it gave the act so much more of a driving force (even if her objective was slightly askew from the grove-goblin situation); I'm sure it does feel a lot weaker without her.
Last edited by Jewel; 25/12/23 06:21 PM.
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