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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Dec 2023
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I just played through this part of Astarion’s quest last night and danggg, the palace does feel empty doesn’t it! I thought that Astarion was so popular because his questline culminates in a choice between breaking a cycle of generational trauma, versus embracing it and carrying it on to destructive effect. But I feel like that theme was pretty underdeveloped? Like it was there, and you can see it when you talk to the skull of Cazador’s previous master for example, but… it seemed rushed and not developed explicitly enough, to me at least? It's very rushed. But I think if you relate to his experiences enough, you kinda forget about the palace as you watch him deal with Cazador and what happens after. I did like the cutscene and everything after the Cazador fight, that was satisfying, Though how quickly the 7,000 spawn managed to shuffle into the sewers was.... astonishing, I was hoping for one more chance to talk to Sebastian, and there were small things littered throughout- like the skull of Vellioth I just really expected the level of attention to detail and rich background storytelling I had gotten used to in Acts 1 and 2. I know Act 3 was rushed, and it certainly shows, but I just thought they'd have made Cazador's place a priority given the importance of him to one of your Companions as well as how much they built him up throughout the game. I mean, I'm not saying a Vampire can't be a minimalist, but damn. Not even anything in the super off-limits study of his, and his super secret elevator was just sitting there all primed and convenient. I didn't even need to have a perception check to find a lever or button for it or nothing. It really felt like I just waltzed into this vampire's house whistling, completely unobstructed, on his most important day ever, and just casually strolled my way to this 'hidden from everyone for centuries' shrine or whatever to start the boss fight. Given how paranoid they constantly said vampires are, Cazador's security was worse than a suburban mall's. Between that, the sad amount of twitchy servants, and complete lack of personal items to find I'm starting to headcanon that Cazador might have been going broke and just not telling anyone while he desperately sold off his personal effects to pay this years property tax.
No trees were harmed in the delivery of this message, although a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2023
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Sure, of course. I guess I’m thinking that it would be cool to just have more emphasizing that theme around the palace, to create more of a narrative atmosphere? Like it would be super cool if there was a hall, for example, where you see and can interact with the portraits of all of the past vampire lords that ruled in the palace. Maybe have their skull or a relic of them on display, and/or a book/journal talking about their reign, what they were known for, how it was brought to an end. And I’m sure there were some violent ends, because based on the document you find, a lot of the reigns were pretty short, considering they were supposed to be immortal as a vampire. So yeah, I found a little piece of paper chronicling the names of the vampire lords, but it would be cool to have a bit more, you know?
A portrait hall would actually be a really nice touch, and there’s a large empty hall that would work great for that already in the palace. So that you can get a better sense of the centuries-long cycle of violence and abuse. And then it would make a lot more sense to deter Astarion from completing the ritual. Because as it is, it seems kind of weird to keep him from removing symptoms from himself like vampiric hunger and sunlight sensitivity, and to release 7000 vampires who are likely to kill so many people. I think that having more content on the cycle of violence would give the player character a better understanding of why it’s so important to break?
Last edited by Ecc2ca; 02/01/24 09:11 PM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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There are story reasons why the security is not particularly tight. Just as you are about to enter the palace, the door unlocks automatically for you. Cazador is expecting you to bring Astarion so he can use him for the ritual. You can get extra insight into Cazador's way of thinking if you chat with him alone first and then talk to Astarion at camp. Astarion says: 'He won't throw the door open for us, he's no fool , but there may be fewer obstacles in our path if he's expecting us.' It looks like he put a modicum of enemies in your path, thinking it would be enough to best you or at least weaken you before you face him. He's very sure of himself and thinks you stand no chance against him.
About the palace - I agree, it's too small and is positioned in a ridiculous location. It was clearly meant to be in the Upper City, but since we didn't get it, they awkwardly squeezed it in. I think there was a line from Astarion saying the palace is imposing on the outside but sadly we don't see that in the game.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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About the palace - I agree, it's too small and is positioned in a ridiculous location. It was clearly meant to be in the Upper City, but since we didn't get it, they awkwardly squeezed it in. I think there was a line from Astarion saying the palace is imposing on the outside but sadly we don't see that in the game. When the Emperor tells you his story and you get the sequence in which you can watch Baldur's Gate grow, you can see Ramazith's Tower in the Upper City (where it was supposed to be) I wonder if you can spot Cazador's Palace in the skyline as well.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Dec 2023
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There are story reasons why the security is not particularly tight. Just as you are about to enter the palace, the door unlocks automatically for you. Cazador is expecting you to bring Astarion so he can use him for the ritual. You can get extra insight into Cazador's way of thinking if you chat with him alone first and then talk to Astarion at camp. Astarion says: 'He won't throw the door open for us, he's no fool , but there may be fewer obstacles in our path if he's expecting us.' It looks like he put a modicum of enemies in your path, thinking it would be enough to best you or at least weaken you before you face him. He's very sure of himself and thinks you stand no chance against him.
About the palace - I agree, it's too small and is positioned in a ridiculous location. It was clearly meant to be in the Upper City, but since we didn't get it, they awkwardly squeezed it in. I think there was a line from Astarion saying the palace is imposing on the outside but sadly we don't see that in the game. I never talked to Cazador though, and when he sent his spawn to my camp to retrieve him we almost killed them until he teleported them all away so he had no reason to think I'd bring him anything. I think this idea of the path being made easier could have been handled better (and may still yet in patches to come) even if it was more people or whatever you could encounter, who might step aside if you have Astarion in your party, or where you have to pass persuasion checks to convince them that you and the other other random people with Astarion are totally supposed to be there too, and who will fight on sight if you leave him in camp. Just layers to how it could go depending on who you bring with you and how you approach it. Maybe like the Isobel fight where they try and knock Asatrion out and take him away and kill you when you enter, showing the two contradictory natures of a vampire being super arrogant but also insanely paranoid. And yes to everything Ecc2ca said. I found that document of the past vampire lords as well and It made me really curious about them, but of course there was nothing else. Finding documents, or a hall with their pictures, or things around that showed more of that cycle of abuse you're there (depending) to break would be fascinating and much more meaningful to Astarion's decision to break free. Not to mention, I'm just a lore hound, and I really *really* just wanna know more about whats going on here XD I would also just love to find more personal effects of the Spawn. Astarion has lived there for 200 years and I found literally nothing of his? Even if he has a negative reaction or wants to leave it all behind, it would be neat to get a glimpse of his life there in a more personal way than just what he has told us. Especially more about his relationship with the other Spawn. I don't even know if he likes/cares/hates/pities the other Spawn.
Also random nit-pick, where is this sewer entrance to the underdark they spoke of? I combed that dang 'Palace' and found no such thing, not even a door hinting that was what it was and I just couldn't go in there XD
No trees were harmed in the delivery of this message, although a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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I never talked to Cazador though, and when he sent his spawn to my camp to retrieve him we almost killed them until he teleported them all away so he had no reason to think I'd bring him anything. That's the thing though, he is utterly convinced Astarion will come to him one way or another - either with you, emboldened by having allies, or defeated and not knowing what else to do in case you die. He says this if you face him alone: 'He will come here, because he knows nothing else. Because he is incapable of anything else.' If you approach Cazador but not close enough to trigger the scene, he says these things: 'I have worked too long on this ritual to have that brat spoil it now', 'I never should have spoiled the child so', and 'Astarion will return to me. Our family will be whole again.' Astarion has lived there for 200 years and I found literally nothing of his? Even if he has a negative reaction or wants to leave it all behind, it would be neat to get a glimpse of his life there in a more personal way than just what he has told us. Especially more about his relationship with the other Spawn. I don't even know if he likes/cares/hates/pities the other Spawn. It's strange indeed that we don't see any of his belongings. The Emperor has the whole scene in his hideout explaining what his old items meant to him, Shadowheart also reminisces about her connection to places and items in Shar's cloister where she was brought up, Jaheira has the same type of interaction in her hidden cave. Yet, Astarion as a Baldurian has nothing like this to make things more personal. He only explains what various rooms were meant for. As for the other spawn, they're not close but he pities them. He has a sad conversation about them when you reach Moonrise Towers. Generally, by reading books in the palace, talking to the servants and listening to Cazador we can safely deduct he is considered the black sheep of the family. Leon will say he'd always been weak if you fail the persuasion check to convince them to follow Astarion or say nothing.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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It makes sense that we don't find anything that belongs to Astarion in the palace. The spawn don't have anything and he's not someone who would keep a journal. I'm pretty sure the clothes he wears are all he owns. It is disappointing that they didn't give him much to say in the city though. He should know all the shady places.
And it's funny that Leon's the one talking shit lol, he should try spending a year in solitary instead of his special room.
What I'd like to find out more about is why Cazador was obsessed with Astarion specifically.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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I was thinking this too and thought it was one of the reason's why his clothes are kept in such good shape apart from the obvious reason. And I wonder if Cazador was once the black sheep of Velioth's "family", the disobedient one who eventually overthrew him.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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I was thinking this too and thought it was one of the reason's why his clothes are kept in such good shape apart from the obvious reason. And I wonder if Cazador was once the black sheep of Velioth's "family", the disobedient one who eventually overthrew him. Cazzy seeing his old self in Astarion would explain all the "special" treatment.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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It makes sense that we don't find anything that belongs to Astarion in the palace. The spawn don't have anything and he's not someone who would keep a journal. I'm pretty sure the clothes he wears are all he owns. I didn't think he'd have much, but I was at least expecting there to be some sewing tools since he knows how to do embroidery and how to maintain his clothes. He also experimented with making perfumes.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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It makes sense that we don't find anything that belongs to Astarion in the palace. The spawn don't have anything and he's not someone who would keep a journal. I'm pretty sure the clothes he wears are all he owns. I didn't think he'd have much, but I was at least expecting there to be some sewing tools since he knows how to do embroidery and how to maintain his clothes. He also experimented with making perfumes. Yeah the real reason is probably "Larian forgot/couldn't be bothered", but we can also justify it as Astarion not bringing things home. Speaking of embroidery, I kinda miss the “Lamentable is the autumn picker content with plums.”
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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I am pretty sure Cazador was supposed to have some stuff for Helia, hence the surprise werewolves. But Larian just stopped working on Cazador altogether when they dropped Helia.
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