Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback What is the point of all-in puzzle combat?

So I fought the Tax Collector again. I knew about her tricks but went in role-playing the party without metagaming any preparations. She won the initiative and one-shot the entire party because everyone had quite a bit of gold. So I had no choice but to reload, metagame, and dump all gold before fighting her. And then it was an effortless snooze-fest of a fight. From an impossible extreme to a boring easy fight. It wasn't fun the first time around, and it wasn't fun the second time around. What's the point of such combat design?

Grym is the same but his "puzzle" is even more obvious. Abuse the gamey targeting AI and bludgeon him to death. It doesn't really matter if the party is level 4, level 8 or level 15. Once an easy puzzle is cracked, it's not a fight anymore. Beating it feels more like cheating than the characters being particularly skilled at anything. How's that supposed to feel rewarding in an RPG if character development and character skill doesn't matter?

The game punishes the player for role-playing the encounters. Combat design that forces the player to metagame in an RPG should be a huge red flag. That is, using knowledge the player has but the characters shouldn't have.

Well, in defense of these encounters... All three of the cursed Thorms can be roleplayed to death without fighting them at all.

My first time with the Toll Collector I had no idea what was going on, other than 'she hits really, really hard' so I went out of my way to stay out of her reach and sniping her toll assistants first. No metagaming, no character knowledge, just trying things. And the game allows that. That's how you end up with people soloing Grym by putting a health potion under the Grym Hammer and luring the baddie there, getting knocked down and healed again. That's how you end up with people enlarging their Owlbear and death-jumping the bastard.

The thing you try to describe here, is actually the strongest aspect of the game.

The first time I met Geringoth I roleplayed her to death. the second time I assumed the skulls were important somehow so I killed one and saw that it removed her armour so I just kept doing that. I had no idea that the amount of gold you have has any effect, not until I read it here. I also never figured out Grym's hammer thing, I just ganged up and kept hitting him once I lured him into the lava.

I think what rodeolifant is describing is what makes some folks bounce off the game. The game wants you to screw around and do stuff, and some players don't like to just screw around. But for those that do, the game has a lot to offer. But it has far less to offer to those of us who don't enjoy that.

The first time I met Geringoth I roleplayed her to death. the second time I assumed the skulls were important somehow so I killed one and saw that it removed her armour so I just kept doing that. I had no idea that the amount of gold you have has any effect, not until I read it here. I also never figured out Grym's hammer thing, I just ganged up and kept hitting him once I lured him into the lava.

I think what rodeolifant is describing is what makes some folks bounce off the game. The game wants you to screw around and do stuff, and some players don't like to just screw around. But for those that do, the game has a lot to offer. But it has far less to offer to those of us who don't enjoy that.

Gyrm isn't even that much of a puzzle, not if you've done some exploring and found all the clues that literally tells you about using a "Hot hammer" against it... Literally I was surprised that anyone even tried to fight it normally instead of smashing it with the giant hammer in the middle of the arena.

As far as the Tax Collector goes... The first time I fought her, I did get sniped because of gold. But since I carry all my gold on 1 mule character who has high STR to carry all my crap, that one character died and the rest of my party beat her up (And I read in the combat log that gold is what super powered her). First time around I killed her skulls which removed her armour. Second time around I went for the achievement where you kill her without killing the skulls first.

Never did I have to metagame to role-play characters.

The point of these types of combat? To get people to explore and read stuff. Many things are written about in notes or can be divined from Speaking with the Dead or Animals. Informing you of what's coming up and alluding to how to prepare for it.

Agreed, and the altnernative is quite boring. Whilst I enjoy the early game combat, fighting things like Goblins with no tactics required gets fairly tedious quite quick. So, for instance, I quite like how Radiant Damage is king in all of Act 2.... And you're rapidly becoming used to firing up your Spirit Guardians every fight... Until you come across the Sharrans. They are just as susceptible to it, but they will nuke you if you use it.

Anyway, ultimately - If you *want* a straight up fight where you're just slugging it out with Grym, you can totally do that. A bearheart barbarian with a good hammer and a Life Cleric in support will totally knock him down. He takes force damage too, so you can hop around and Eldritch Blast him if you really want to. He will go down. Eventually. And that goes for every encounter. There is a mechanic to Raphael with the pillars, but I've never even noticed it until I read about it. I always just pummeled him into the ground.


On Goblins, though: That is a dissapointment, that should be mechanically more interesting. I had hoped for massive reinforcements from drums, like in Icewind Dale 2. At least on the higher difficulties. Don't take out the drums this turn? Ten more Gobbos. This turn? Another ten. Now THAT is how you do a proper goblin fight.

I absolutely hate the screwing around and "creative" ways of winning like enlarging a wildshape and jumping on enemies.

All of these "clever" ways to win have one thing in common which is breaking the rules of the game. There are no rolls to jump long distances accurately and the enemies get no Saving Throw to evade that nonsense. Gerringothe just one shots entire parties with ridiculous off the scale damage if you happen to carry enough gold. Like the jumping on someone damage is ridiculous and off the scale.

And dont get me wrong. It's great that they provide alternative ways to kill enemies or solve problems. But in classic Larian fashion they love their own ideas so much they completely break the game in favor of them. If a game has rules, use the damn rules instead of randomly ignoring them and creating overpowered easy exploits. Thin ropes that drop heavy rocks to kill enemies are not 100% to hit with an arrow in D&D, but at Larian they are. They can't control themselves with that stuff because they want it to happen so badly. But it's not rewarding or fun when it's too easy.

Once you figure out the meme that you can stack crates and jump on enemies for massive damage it just becomes a gimmicky exploit instead of any kind of tactic.When the tax collector one shots the entire party, or you can just choose to one-shot Orin with a funny jump, you've gone too far.

And with Grym the "puzzle" isn't the hammer. It's opening up his character sheet and seeing he is (double) vulnerable to blunt damage, and figuring out how to exploit his AI so that he can't even fight back. A level 1 character can bludgeon him to death which is extremely stupid.

Right. Well. I've beaten both Grym and Mrs Toll the gold fashioned smack 'em to death way, using the rules. And, that proves that you can totally do it your way. I don't see an issue with others doing it differently. I don't have the patience for stacking the crates either, but it's good fun for others.

Regardless. They are optional boss fights. They always come with some sort of gimmick or other. And, in typical D&D fashion; getting creative with the rules. In tabletop, everyone always tries to teleport to the end of the dungeon, or fly to the top of the tower. It's always been like that. I find it rather amusing that this game addressses that sort of gameplay instead of invisi-walling you out of that.

It's not new, either. Going up against Firkraag without protection from fire and fear meant you died. Running at Kangaxx with no protections up meant your death. Or, Imprisonment, really. Unless you're a Berserker. Heh, in the old one on Hardcore. Just 'the rules' - meant a Fire Giant will crit you from 130hp to 0 in a single hit. Balors and Divas with Vorpal hits, multiple mages casting Malison and Chaos ensuring none of your people are responding to commands and mudering the local townsfolk...

A boss one-shotting you isn't anything Larian came up with for giggles. It's just always been a part of it. It means you stay the hell out of melee range and come up with different tactics.

And let's face it. It's 5E, there's tons of options - it's not hard.

Challenge aside, the problem is simply that the game both plays by it's own rules, and doesn't.

You can play D&D, or you can ignore D&D and use Larian exploits to trivialize many encounters. They simply go too far with extremes when there should be a satisfying middle ground somewhere.

In case of shooting a rope to drop down something lethal on enemies - just add an AC 15 for the rope so it's not a 100% success. And it won't feel like an exploit. There's a rules system in place, and level 1 characters with 8 Dex are not supposed to be able to casually do Legolas style shots. And if you play an archer, it's annoying anyone can do those shots without fail.

The ridiculous jump kills - add an Athletics check to aim the jump instead of just letting anyone jump extreme distances with surgical accuracy. Add appropriate fall damage to the jumper. Give the target a Dex Saving Throw to evade it. Tone the damage to a reasonable amount. Then it's fun and balanced instead of a stupid "I win ha-ha" button that breaks the rules.

And again, self-policing yourself to not using creative exploits because they are too powerful, is not fun.

I would imagine that was an intentional design. It wants to offer “choice” to as wide of an audience as possible, but if you are looking for a singular, coherent system you will be left frustrated.

The fundamental problem when you try to please everyone, and be everything at once. You end up with something that's not great for anyone.

You can't make a CRPG that has a ruleset, and then just lets you ignore it. Or you can, but that will only appeal to casual gamers who weren't looking for a tactical challenge to begin with. And the same casual gamers are still frustrated if the game suddenly makes you fight a tough encounter where you actually need to understand and play by the D&D rules.

That's why difficulty settings exist. But the lines are too blurred. Honor mode is full of cheesy exploits that make it easy. And players are still complaining Easy is too hard. The difficulty settings aren't doing their job right and that's because Larian seem to be confused themselves whether they are making a D&D game, or a puzzle game.

Aaaah, see, now the monkey gets out the sleeve.

Well, here's teh thing. It was blatantly obvious that this was never going to be something of a tactical challenge at its core. Never, ever. It was always going to be about domination fetish vampires, thirsty Druids and lesbian Tieflings. BG3 is in all probability not for you, and was never intended to be.

BG3, like it's predecessors, tries to emulate a D&D campaign. That's a roleplaying game wherein the heroes are typically way too overpowered for the challenge presented. It's jsut part of it, it';s something of a power fantasy. Just as much as creative dicking around with the environment and pulling shenanigans for the easy win. It happens on *every* table I played on over the course of thirty years - and that includes tournament tables. Even the rules lawyers will 'try to shoot that rope' and bring about the book to find the most obscure set of rules to convince everyone they have a 100% chance to hit.

Now, D&D has indeed veered away from the hardcore stats and the wargaming it started out as, moved away from the abundance of dice rolling to make it more for the roleplayers and less for the math enthusiasts. Because let's face it - it's jsut a better business model to entertain the masses than it is to try and be niche. But, the nicheées are certainlyt there, but you'll rarely find them playing 5E - it's the Skyrim of tabletop games - it's easy to grasp and is more about the RP fun than about Wargaming. That's why Paizo broke away from the Wizards and just hammered on with their interpretation of 3.5.

It's called Pathfinder, commonly referred to as Mathfinder as it is not for the filthy casual, more so for those that want to calculate stats. There's two quite challenging CRPGs out. Set that to the highest difficiculty, go an play Iron Man Mode and be entertained. Unlike BG3 [or the previous ones], not all builds and party compositions can actually finish the game. You have to 'git gud' to pull it off.

Emjoy.

I have no idea what this phrase means, but I like it. I'm gonna start going around saying this just to see what kind of reactions I get.

It's a Dutch phrase, which I literally translated for comedic purpose. It doesn't mean anything in English, but here it says something along the lines of; 'Ah, now things become clear'

Considering you name, I actually assumed you were Dutch. Jan de Kort, Jan de Kamp... Very, very Dutch names.

It's still pretty great for me. I also think it's largely in keeping with BG on the whole. Main reason to do it this way, is just so it's possible for more people to play a D&D game in this setting without necessarily needing to understand all the D&D systems at once to still play ball. But done in such a way that it doesn't totally shirk the basis, like say some sorta dark alliance. Or I guess basically just to introduce the systems in a way that it still feels manageable and rewarding for a first out, if you stick with it. Some chaos on the fly sure, but doing it piecemeal so I eventually get to the core systems just from fumbling so many times. Various work arounds available, cause there's always like a dozen different approaches to the problem, even if some are much stronger than others. It's a good feeling whenever I finally put something together that works.

If it's a BG game, I'll assume that there's like always going to be some boots of speed or way to edgepan a fireball just so hehe. I remember feeling very satisfied playing BG1, when I finally started to go under the hood with a bit more understanding of all the various mechanics that the game had to offer.

To me the Tax Collector would be analogous maybe to fighting that dude with the Basilisks in the garden in BG1. Like first time out, I blew past the super obvious hints that we should have remembered from Branwen at the carnival, and totally get everyone turned into stone. Second time we fair somewhat better and it only happens to half the crew. Third time we realize that there's a way to use that super pricy potion they were selling at the temple and put it to a really good use in that area. Fourth time we figure out we can do the same with a prepared spell so we didn't have to spend that gold. 5th time we realize, holy shit, Korax good dog! Why didn't we catch that dude needed to be protected from the Flinds so he could help us handle the Basilisks!?

Finally on the Sixth go around, we realize that the good dog can pretty much solo the entire garden and hit level 5 for the party without having to do anything other than that. So then as like the literal first thing you can do after leaving Candlekeep, you have a shortcut to the midgame that's super fast. If you just ignore all the things pulling you other directions and head straight to the garden with Imoen right off the bat.

There are a ton of set piece puzzlers in this new one that reminded me of that experience. Like back when I didn't know about the basilisk gaze and anything much. Just taking the game as it presented and teasing it out over the course of several tries. Usually what made me want to even do all that to begin with had little to do with the puzzles or the battles per se, and more to do with environmental music holding me in some kind of mesmer, and custom portraits and things like that, but also just that appeal of trying to figure the thing inside out and upside down.

I'm pretty sure once we get to like Owlbear off the top ropes or stuff like proper hammer time with Grym, keeping it way too legit to quit, that it's bound to start coming a bit loose at the seams. For that they need like the Sword Coast Strats versions, and just mods to whiddle it down or blow it out to make the actual encounters harder with the exact sorts of checks and balances that become fun and entertaining at that point. Like hopefully it gets there, but they probably need that steam workshop and such, and like trying to get the same sort of stuff to the consoles, which I guess makes the idea of definitive final pass pretty attractive.

All puzzles are kinda the same way right. The game is more Labyrinth than maze. Like once you got the thread laid out, or know how to get to the center. To get to the center, you always just keep one hand on the wall and never take it off. Keep pressing forward. Works every time heheh

But yeah, I don't know, I get it too. That same feeling. Like I kinda want the game to reward me more for going deeper into the rules minutia and general systems knowledge and push me there even more than like tricks of the trade with runepowder, but then once I have a couple tricks I kinda delight in those too. I wouldn't know what to have them remove. I think they could handle quite a lot just from raising the prices on a few things in the consumables and maybe to do the level/respec/raise to tighten it up there. Even for the stuff I thought I knew how to handle I was still sweating in all the honours, so I feel like they must have done something right there, but I don't think I got it inside out quite yet. And that's pretty crazy, like how many hours could this thing possibly keep me entertained? Quite a few it seems, but I gotta imagine much of that is down to some of the puzzlers. The ones that I still just haven't cracked yet

I believe this game and this kind of games should be played the other way around: always role-play a role-play game first!


You did the opposite way: you had already known all the bells and whistles and even tricks when trying to role-play. Hence the puzzling: why me a player had to die when trying to role-play!

I learned her tricks while I was "role-playing" my Gnome Durge. What truly matters is the first time. The fun. The thrill. My first fight with this tax collector was fun as I was slowly uncovering her unique capabilities. But the thrill was not as great as the "battle" over drinking nearby: when I won several approvals plus inspirations while drinking a big bad boss into death, how great the thrill was!!! I did not lose a single check. And that was my first time ever there. However, that kind of thrill can never come back, no matter how many times I reload or replay pretending knowing nothing.

 

By making what I considered a biggest mistake that might lead to my Gnome Durge's fighting Grym alone, I accidentally discovered the by far easiest no-risk way to destroy Grym. The frustration-turned thrill was unforgettable as well.

Again, what really matters is the first time. When I came back with a different character and repeat the same strategy (trick), there can only be a little bit of fun - that thrill is long gone.


No, not really.

If you role-play a role-play game first, you will feel rewarded for uncovering an easy way to defeat a supposedly powerful boss.

On the other hand, if you just pretend to role-play BG3 as if it were your first time, obviously, there cannot be any thrill left to you for discovering what you actually have already known.
Basically, there is no real way to cheat oneself for fun, for thrill.

I have so far spent 600+ hours on BG3 almost exclusively playing on Tactician. I have not died once yet. I even rescued all 15 prisoners in 1 go during my first time stumbling into Iron Throne while chasing the master of a monster - even with the harassment from a naughty devil, no one was left behind. The fun. The thrill. The level of satisfaction. All is unforgettable. However, I personally believe, the thrill can only be had during the first playthrough - and - before you have learned all the spoilers. The thrill cannot be faked.

I agree. Spent, what, two years?, hoping to push Larian to pick a lane and create something coherent. It was never their objective, and for whatever reason it worked really well for a large amount of people. It’s a very broad, but shallow experience. A lot of stuff to dip into, but once you engage with it, you notice glaring issues. Just pointing out that it is an intentional design, rather than flaw to be fixed. BG3 I would want to play, would no doubt alienate a big chunk of the player base

Evident from this thread also with people defending or at least approving Larian's mess because it works for them.

On the other hand, BG3 is so close to offering satisfying tactical combat and a more "hard core' style challenging gameplay. It could be done through difficulty settings and putting some thought into it. Or simply by reverting or balancing a lot of the house rules. D&D 5e is a better tactical game than BG3 is.

I definitely find it rougher when something comes really close to delivering what I want, but then falls just short. Where I can see daylight, but then they shank the extra point cause they went for a tie, or got all sloppy in the clutch. I mean that's always worse hehe. The difference here is that I think the mess isn't nearly so dire, cause I can see the places where they could clean it up, to make the experience more satisfying. I got a little list in my head and a running tally of the puzzles I enjoy compared to the things that still irk me, so I can easily imagine the sort of nightmare scenario I'd enjoy, vs the one I wouldn't, or how mods might be able to get it there. Sometimes I feel like they're in this situation though, where they're trying to clean the kitchen and also cook at the same time, but that's really difficult to pull off in an orderly fashion. In the lowpoints of the EA I was very frustrated by the slow drip here, but then the game on launch felt much improved and gave me much more of what I was after, even if it was a sery very long time coming, so I'm somehow still optimistic. Being honest, that's probably cause I knew it wasn't ever going to Nightmare on Elmstreet for me again, but it might still be Nightmare on Elmstreet III or even Nightmare on Elmstreet IV, ya know. Which is really all I need.

Maybe a year from now, Gimblebock wises up, cause it probably always takes 12 months longer than I'd wish. Perhaps that rope trap goes from a 100% killshot to a coin toss in honour mode, just to make sure we can never quite sleep on anything. Maybe the toll collector comes back in that one, but somehow screws us over even harder if we're already meta broke, the lottery of bounced checks legendary. Something like that. I'm not totally sure how it might look exactly, but I can still sorta picture it. Like say they add a zero to all the resurrection costs at Withers, or additional costs there like a perma hit to CON. They could remove healing potions from the game entirely, and tweak some of the merchants/consumables so they don't replenish things that compete directly with class abilities and feats. They could have a shared initiative mode, where you can't just break off one party member to remain at a safe remove. Or have it where if Tav gets chunked at any point then it's instant game over, regardless of who else is left alive. Things like that shake it up. I was pleased with honour mode, even if they still serve it up pretty fondue there, and clearly it's a meta mode more than a 'going in blind' sorta mode, but that's pretty BG to me still. I feel like the tactics aren't really my top reason for replaying BG games. It's something else for me, like that keeps me coming back, and I don't know how they did it, but I'm still here. An accidental apologist I guess, didn't see it coming, but pleasantly surprised nonetheless. I wish the game that's out right now was the game that spent 3 years in EA, cause its easier to tease out the knots now with the wider view, whereas half of everything in EA felt like speculation, like 'so is this it?' Once they call it, probably takes at least a year or 2, before the mods I'd want most can go to town. Right now the game feels just too delicate, and every time I start modding it, I end up having to go back to the vanilla thing after a couple weeks when it hotfixes.

I would really LOVE to have a list of all things to change to offer a better challenge.
I've learned modding a bit during the EA and I'd love to make a "hard core" style MOD (without healing surfaces, with shove as an action, without so many broken items,...).

But to be honnest it doesn't look "simple" at all to me considering the amout of things to think about and to change.

If you have an exhaustive list of things that make the game too simple, please share it.
I'd be more than glad to try to create a mod that suits both of us and probably many other.