Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion after Patch 6

So I just joined up to post my concerns about the new patch (mainly), I tried airing them on "X" (it's still Twitter to me) and Facebook but "X" is a chess pool with teens who are into bdsm and Facebook isn't much better, problem isn't that Larian isn't listening or replying to fans either, problem is that they're only replying to fans (in the same manner back) who are posting obnoxiously gifs and well.... bdsm stuff I guess..... at least on "X". I just wish they would consider us adults gamer fans concerns as well, we are after all paying customers as well...

Before anyone misunderstands me and potentiallyjump my throat..., I absolutely LOVE BG3 and Larian for creating the game of my dreams, it's truly a marvel and it's something I've waited for several years, no other company has managed this, so a BIG thank you ??

Now to why I started this post....:

I like many other women (and men) love a manly man who is dominating, who can take charge in the bedroom and be a little rough but believe me on this there's a HUGE difference between being a little dominating and being ABUSIVE! Now I've tried both! There's nothing wrong with enjoying a man who is a bit rough, after all he can control himself but an abusive man CANNOT! There lies the difference.... what is wrong with the new patch and Astarion kiss animation is the choking, it's promoting abuse, that abusing your partner is a good thing especially during sex and these young teens are already hooked because of this movie 50 shades of gray thing that started the trend and now they start to see "woooow, seee choking IS okay and HOT", it's NOT. Call me what you will but like I said I'm not a prude I'm also into a guy who can be a bit rough but I've also been with an abuser and choking is not okay, no one can change my mind on that. Tav looks scared as she is getting murdered, now why in the hell would Larian do this? Promote such a thing? I've always Ascended Astarion because I liked his dark side, it was perfect, just enough dark but also a bit witty, now it's directly ABUSIVE and it's completely ruined, his whole character is ruined for me, I can't even stand to look at him.

Anyway that's my thoughts I needed to air.

I mean, what Astarion's doing could be okay if consensual, so the choking itself isn't the problem, and I don't think this is what will influence kids to be abused or something, especially when they added Tav's scared facial animations which are clearly trying to send a message. This was always the crux or Ascended Astarion's romance as well, so it's not out of character for him, I'm sorry.

What I will agree with is that there is some real cognitive dissonance going on with the kisses themselves, and I think a lot of the controversy is coming from that. Larian is mixing two contradictory messages that don't mesh well and the takeaway can be a bit confusing. It kind of reminds me of how TLOU2's story is about how revenge is bad and killing is bad or whatever but then the gameplay does nothing but contradict that by making carnage look and feel epic to play. Here you have Tav's facial expressions telling you "this is not a good situation to be in" in what I guess is an attempt to not glorify/fetishize/romanticize Ascended Astarion's romance, but you ALSO have the kisses themselves be very clearly intended to be sexy, so it defeats the whole purpose by contradicting the message it's trying to send. Fanservice doesn't mesh well with trying to avoid romanticizing something.

Yeah you're right I guess. I think they could help ease some of the fans concerns fairly easy with this imo.

They could simply add two choices :

1. Kiss me roughly (the choking)

2. Kiss me gently (none choking)

Hopefully Larian will consider this in a future patch.

I still don't like the idea of the choking being there but I can see now how it can be to show his abusive side but still I'd still like the option to choose, especially since we had the other version previously.

The problem with Larian is that they don't add things, they replace them, that annoys the hell out of me, cause I buying a game you play it thinking it will keep the things in the way it was, hopefully improve it over time but to remove things and make it completely different.... that's not what I paid for... why not just add it instead of replacing? I'm just afraid all this new success are getting to their head, that they're going to ruin it for themselves at one point. Maybe I'm wrong.

First of all, thank you for mentioning this. It is really frustrating if you take your time to write feedback, good feedback one put a lot of thought into, and there is literally no reply or another form of acknowledgement but at the same time, if you post something more...offensive in a horny way, they will more likely answer. This is the case for Larian Studios twitter as well as for some VAs and Larian members - basically most of the people involved in the game.

As for the choking, I feel like Larian really tried to see how far they could take things, like they included lots of stuff that you usually should double-check before adding it. Also, you should know what message you want to transport to your customers.
In BG3, we have BDSM, sodomy (even if the bear is thinking like a human) and even forced sodomy at the drow twins, SA / trauma, religious torture (against parents) and so on and most of the topics are not handled well or with the sensitivity that is needed.


To my understanding, if you release a game in Early Access, you not only want money but you want the feedback, that's the fuel for future improvements. There have been lots of things people (including me) loved in EA that totally got changed in the release. Larian knew what people wanted to see more of but they removed or replaced said content with new stuff (looking at EA Halsin, who got a complete rewrite or Minthara, who you thought would play a huge role and they treated her dirty in the release).
I feel the same as you, chances are they are trying to feed just a part of the playerbase, which is the lound, young, horny part that's spamming X (and other platforms) with mostly headcanon stuff that's fueled by their own sexual fantasies.

Astarion already chokes Tav during the romance scene if you tell him to make it hurt, so there is nothing new about that sort of exchange. It can be completely consensual and enjoyable for both parties. I think it would be nice indeed if they added two choices like they did in the romance scene, so everyone can pick their flavour.

I support that.


I am most outraged by Tav face and that it is OOC Astarion, as there are hints of domination, hints of power game, brutal, but it is not given attention in the quest, research.
Astarion is inspired by libertinism (Marquis de Sade among them) so maybe he has that trait. Man tells how he'll kill Tav if they start turning into MF - smiling. I had envisioned different options, knife, strangulation, immobilization, blood.
But to reveal them like this... It's better to do nothing.

It's done, fix face, Tav face during this - I can hardly believe that no one had the slightest thought of making that face appropriate to those who like Dark Romances.

Opinions from twitter and reddit - on what the story AA should be, why it's "bad", contradict common sense - contradict the idea of the Dark Romance. Contradicts the feelings, experiences, thoughts of the people who choose and explore this ending. They probably treat it differently than those who don't like it in the first place.

I know plenty of stories where everything was romanticized. For the purpose of romanticizing. It was clear as day. Thank you, Japan.

It's got to be all very carefully and smarter for a person in need of a dark romance. A mature, adult person.
Larian could have written Astarion's romance this way, however he only shows his gentle side in the romance. And I don't know if they planned to write a dark one. Considering Lord Astarion is still himself…
The animation literally doesn't match his words that Ascended Astarion utters after the kiss. They favor a gentler dynamic.

Well analyzing it from a story perspective is ridiculous right now.
It's literally done so that the player for fun everywhere could watch the knee animation. Based on that, yes respectful fanservice is when there is a choice - softly – roughly.

Thank you!! It's nice to know I'm not completely nuts in feeling like this lol, knowing that there's others who feels the same way is reassuring.

I never played bg3 in early access so I can't speak to that but I've heard from others how a LOT of great content have been removed, especially from Halsin and Wyll and this shows greatly in the game since they have much less content than the rest, Minthara too. What bothers me most is not putting things in or adding things or fixing the game, it's the CONSTANT replacement of them, the game should be out of early access by now, at least that's how I understood it when purchasing it for my ps5, so replacing the content in it shouldn't be allowed if it were up to me.

Thank you!!

And yes I agree, the facial expressions are everything, she looks so damn scared and humiliated, this is not bdsm it's abusiveness and violence, I've tried both like I've mentioned. If you've noticed he also slaps her face and then she looks really sad and scared and he does this in public, this is exactly what a violent abusive man would do, not a bdsm or a dark fantasy person. I remember my ex who used to embarrasse me in public similar to that and I would stay silent just because I didn't want it to get even bigger out of humiliation, that look on Tav face is exactly the look I used to get and feel. Who ever thought it was a good idea with these new animations was clearly drunk or on drugs that day or perhaps an abusive person themselves. And no one in their right minds starts to kneel for a kiss like that in public then afterwards is okay to get slapped, so damn ridiculous.

Some of the more elaborate animations - the kneeling one but also the one they showed for Shart - made me wonder what the Dev think players use the kiss animations for too. Those seem more like nice (or not so nice) animations than something to be used in roleplay or as a casual kiss after something noteworthy has happened in game. For example, I like a celebratory post-battle-kiss.

I totally feel you. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with replacing stuff that hurts the players because it triggers some kind of trauma or something like that, but if they still need to replace stuff after 6 months, then I feel like they should've postponed the release for a good amount of time.

Two years from now, it will probably be a different game. I hope they don't hold a dagger to the player's throat and force them to choose the good because it's the right thing to do and WIN.
Larian speaks to adults who understand that evil is complex, capable of loving, tender, happy lives. That character development is not dictated by "pick a good way".
"The lightning bolt of justice" won't strike if evil is smart and lucky enough. Or is it a game 12+

I can understand you. Problem is, they don't show sadomasochism but dangerous Sexual sadism disorder, paired with a dangerous thinking that a victim would enjoy the abuse, while it is definitely not, so it's unbearable to watch the victim. That is: Tav definitely indicates that he detests Astarion, is scared, sad and disgusted (according to body language and facial expressions), and on the other hand, as soon as the lips are together, with his mouth that he give Astarion the kiss aka "Don't kill me, do whatever you want with me, I pretend to want it - out of fear.". But his body is rejecting itself against everything (also visible in the clenched fist in every kiss with free camera). Tav doesn't enjoy kissing. This is dangerous sadism being promoted and actually has no place here for players, who want to enjoy a game. The players who chose ascended Astarion are okay with the romance and want their character to enjoy life and not suddenly dealing with sadistic disorder here, and everything is fine there. If they want Astarion to have a Sadistic personality disorder, they need to change all the other scenes, too, and not only show this in the kisses. Also, Tav (how he is shown here - who doesn't enjoy a thing) would never ever ask for a kiss. He cannot be shown disgusted and on the next scene happy, as if there is nothing. That makes no sense at all. If they want to show Sadistic personality disorder in Astarion, then Astarion needs to start the kiss.

The kiss animations wouldn't be the problem if BOTH agreed and enjoy it. So they need to change Tav's behaviour and bodylaguage.
As it is now, dangerous sadism is explicit being shown here. Larian didn't do himself any favors with that.

If this is what you got from my post, then either I didn't get my point across good enough or you're okay with abuse or perhaps you too are confusing abuse with bdsm. If you read what I wrote I said I'm fine with bdsm and dark fantasy which means that it's not the darkness I'm against or the so-called adult theme, it's the sudden change of AA character, that he suddenly goes from bdsm/dark kind of ness into complete abuser and violent person, THAT'S what I'm against.

Let me give you an example if I really couldn't get it right before: Let's say Dragon Age Origin, you've been playing it up until now but suddenly Bioware decides to change the game to Dragon Age 2 because it "feels" more right, how would you feel after purchasing it? You bought this game as Origin, played it as Origin but now it has completely changed, it's now NOT Origin, it's Dragon Age 2..... For me that's the same with AA, he had a PERFECT dark side, yes a DARK side, I'm not against DARK, please understand that and it's not because I'm triggered either, I see people using these two augments as an excuse two defend these new animations, all over the internet but I think the real issue is that people has issues with abuse, they can't separate bdsm and abuse, they ARE two separate things and trust me I do know the difference. I still enjoy the dark side sometimes but NOT abuse, there's a line and it's been crossed by Larian.

I'm sorry, I wasn't referring to you, to Larian.
It feels like they started writing the dark side of Astarion just cheap.
And that's what AA fans are worried about, that Larian isn't writing a dark romance that will be good and right, but a "look how bad" one.
They do show a dark romance that people have already fallen in love with, making it "abusive," which contradicts the entire novel before it. It's generally weird to write abuse\no-true-love when it's the only romance with men for the "path of evil".

Some people enjoy showing violence\abuse when the player-character specifically doesn't want it to happen to them. But the player does. Angst. The most illogical line of romance with Lord, which is taken as fanservice just to listen to the man hissing.
Then Larian to rework Lord and Astarion entire romance, because what came before is a completely different romance. Which still doesn't make sense if the player is Druage.

Most AA fans don't like Tav face, of course body language, too. Even if they like the animations. I know this for a fact, and I know that several complaints have already been written about it. It's a trigger.
He asked whether to turn Tav, Tav could choose gently or roughly. Tav is special and Tav is not a victim, they chose this. "Treasure" is a gentle dynamic, as evidenced by his phrasing after the kiss.

Love-obsession is when everything is given, but it's for always together. Those who wrote kisses are obviously abandoning the concept of a consenting Tav-ally who also obsessively loves Astarion - which is the most logical. Astarion tempts for evil, and they end up together.

Great insight! Tav's dubious reciprocity is the reason it looks so bad. Everything is jarring.


You'd think that a character that won several awards and has been the face of promotional material from the very beginning would be handled better, right?

I'm tired of the inconsistencies, questionable replacements, removal of his EA scenes, taking away the agency of the player. We paid for this game months ago and they then started changing everything because someone at Larian has a boner for the abuser theme.

He's the only evil male romance, so make it a good one Larian! Same as give love to Minthara! Is this an RPG or propaganda for heroism? Why do they keep trying to make us feel bad for wanting to roleplay evil characters and liking evil characters? It's obnoxious.

oh yea the facial animation ruined everything for me. like my Durge has been the badass the entire playthru and possibly become the Absolute endgame and why she looks terrified getting chocked or asked to kneel for a kiss. She should know what to expect of AA after letting him ascend. And honestly in my head I'm like after this kiss ima kick his ass with a Banishing Smite (7 playthru and 6 of them were with AA now patch 6 really changed something for me)

This, just this.
I liked his dark romance, but honestly why a game is pandering to sadism and sexual abuse with those facial animations is just beyond my understanding.

Agree.

There is only one ascended Astarion, but there are many types of tavs: everyone chooses to have a romance relationship with AA with a personal perspective based on the person’s living culture, background, understanding of the world, past experience, and appetite of literary and artistic works. NOT ALL AA PLAYERS ARE BDSM LOVERS. I’ve been chatting with some other players after patch6, some agreed with me that BDSM can be played in a bedroom and both tav and AA should enjoy it. We can’t accept it to be played on a street in front of everyone.

It has been several months since BG3 released, each player has already build his/her own logic chain, has a different understanding of AA. It will be hard to accept the character got OOC after a single patch. Character changing makes players nervous about future playing and nervous about Larian: logic chain built in one patch will be easily destroyed by another.

I really love the metaphor of defeat the absolute's authority in BG3. And I believe characters in a good piece of art work should not be 100% bad or 100% good. LEAVE BLANK SPACE is very important, leave the space for players to have their own imagination, please don’t play the absolute’s authority manipulating players’ thoughts. Sometimes the best thing to do is to do nothing at all. Or to provide more choices: rough kisses and gentle kisses both available, let the players choose by themselves.

AA is an outstanding character with his own bones, fleshes and spirits, there are many aspects can be discussed about AA, not only evil and sex, especially sex, which is the last part this character would like to be linked with.

Agree, but I want to make one thing very clear:


This is NOT bdsm. BDSM is CONSENSUAL and sane. And if consensual, it would be okay to play it on the street, the place doesn't matter. The importance of it being consensual is paramount to keep within BDSM ethics and ensure that this relationship is a healthy one where both partners are supported, that is enjoyng it. Both partners have a healthy mind and are free from psychological derangement.

Tav is portrayed as an abused, unhappy, disgusted, rejecting sextoy, who has no enjoyment in it. He is showed as being mind-and body-controlled by his "Partner" with no own free will, forced to do things against his will. What is shown here is a sexual sadism disorder, where pleasure from inflicting pain on another, nonconsenting person in a sexual context. It’s classified as a paraphilic disorder — a category of disorders that involve having sexual desires or engaging in sexual behaviors that are atypical and that upset you, or that involve another person’s nonconsent, injury, distress, or death.

A sane and healthy BSDM lover is NOT pleased to see Tav like that. These kisses are abuse in the context of dangerous extreme sadistic tendencies. This Sadism shown here is a Mental Health Disorder.

Would the kisses be consensual, Tav enjoying and loving his partner, only then it would be bdsm. And only then, these kisses would be fully enjoyable.
But this is just a perverted sadistic abuse, what is shown here (and a dissservice to all BDSM lovers out there ) *__*

Thank you for your clarification. Yes I agree both tav and AA should enjoy it.