Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Regarding certain changes to Astarion's romance scenes

I've seen people objecting to the new direction of the romance scenes should you choose to have Astarion complete the Ascension ritual, and I feel like it highlights how many people have missed the entire point and direction of Astarion's character writing, and why this change was made.

From the very beginning, Astarion's writing has revolved around one simple facet: Larian Studios correlating between his being a monster known for being predatory and manipulative, and his queer male sexuality.

Astarion is the most queer-coded character in the game, with his entire personality based around stereotypes of queer men: an effeminate male character with "pretty" looks, contributed to by his elven nature. He's vain, petty, spiteful, and often complains when he doesn't get his way. But above all, the story frequently associates his vampirism with his sexuality, and how he uses said sexuality in order to prey on innocent people. His backstory revolves around how he himself was groomed into victimizing others through his sexuality by another queer male villain. Part of his character arc involves him becoming aware of and ashamed of his sexuality because of how he made use of it as a predatory monster. And of course, we can't forget the fact that one of the first things he does in the party is the classic analogy of him attempting to bite the player character against their will, in an obvious parallel to sexual assault.

In his good ending, Astarion rejects embracing vampirism and "ascending". This concludes with him being forced back into the shadows, into the darkness, for not embracing his vampirism doesn't change the fact that he is a vampire. It simply treats him slinking away into obscurity and away from others as a positive choice, the right thing for a vampire to do. He will never stop being a vampire, but distancing himself from others is his good ending. (Note that vampirism in 5e can be cured by resurrection magic on the vampire after they have died, or through certain spells such as *ahem* True Resurrection.) His evil ending is an embrace of being a vampire, and with it being a heartless predator who takes what they want from others. Everything to do with his vampiric nature is something that is wrong, and from the very start, at the very heart of his characterization, that 100% includes his queer male identity.

That is why Ascended Astarion's romance scenes have been changed to include that element of unease and discomfort on the player character's part. Because Larian Studios wants to make it absolutely clear that by embracing his vampiric identity, every aspect of his person that they associate with his predatory, manipulative, monstrous nature is evil. That very much includes his queer male sexuality, which Larian's writers made part of Cazador grooming Astarion into a predator and Astarion's parallel to a rape attempt toward the player character. They want to make it perfectly clear that by embracing an identity they associate with being a queer man, Astarion's "romantic" scenes are innately evil and wrong.

I've had it with AA and his stupid kisses. Wherever you go, nothing but those seem to be the topic. That being said, not everything has to be a metaphor for sexuality, sometimes sacrificing 7000 people for a quality of (un)life upgrade is simply sacrificing 7000 people for a quality of (un)life upgrade, which is not such a great thing to do.

Though, I have to wonder if you took a look at the epilogue party at all. While romanced Astarion's epilogue is pretty lacklustre because it seems to be missing the middle portion, un-romanced Spawn Astarion embraces the night and his vampiric nature, using his skills in a positive way by being a hero-adventurer. The letter the Gur (the monster hunters) send him express admiration for him, and inform you how they have started to modify their methods of subduing vampires in a way that helps their now vampiric children to deal with their hunger. I won't go into detail about the insanely good spawn-ending of my Astarion-Origin, because I feel everyone here must be sick of me gushing over it by now - but overall the "good" / spawn path leads to Astarion accepting his nature and, if you let the other spawn live, leads to the possibility of allowing other non-evil vampires to live among other people. Where is that a bad ending or bad messaging?

Also, shouldn't in your analogy curing vampirism be a bad thing?

I agree with Anska: if I read the words Astarion and kisses one more time, I will explode.
But op, you attributing Astarions negative traits with being queer is very problematic. Astarion being such an ass in the first act comes from him being tortured for 200 years and having forgotten, how normal social interactions work. Plus the fact, that he is angry that no one helped him and now we bend over backwards to help every poor soul, if playing good. Astarion not ascending and developing his character further, is dealing with his past in an adult and healthy manner, while him ascending is taking the easy way out and getting corrupted along the way ( don't forget, that there is also the deal with Mephisto involved). Nothing more, nothing less.
The companion stories are often tied to how power corrupts - Lae'zel staying faithful to Vlaakith and becoming her honour guard will kill her, Shadowheart becoming head of the Sharran chantry will leave her in a very unhealthy state of mind, Gale taking the Crown can get him killed or he might start a war ( according to Raphael in one of the endings) and Astarion ascending makes him this cold, calculating super vampire, that becomes closer to Cazador every day. That has nothing to do with embracing something, it's basically the same reason, Gortash became Banes Chosen: out of fear to be dominated and tortured again by Cazador/ Raphael.

No, in the beginning (that is, early access), Astarion's story was that a corrupted magistrate whose downfall was because of his own evil machinations and dealings with vampires. That was supposed to be the twist; the player would first only experience his story from his point of view, and then learn of the other side. Later, as with other companions, Larian scrapped parts of his backstory. I don't think it is even because they changed the character concept, rather, I suspect this is due how barely finished Cazador's dungeon is and how the entire interaction with Cazador is just one battle.

The new animations are the result of Larian's current approach, which has started long ago, and that is catering to twitter posts and fanfictions. Halsin is another example, his act one characterization is as he was in early access, the new additions (beyond his act two quest) is the "daddy Halsin" meme.

I'm a huge Astarion fan whose sick of hearing about Astarion.

1. Whether or not he is queer-coded means nothing to who he actually is. Trying to correlate his flamboyant nature to being queer is a little bit of a stereotype and at the end of the day, Astarion is Pan. He romanced both men and women and his victims are also both.

2. Trying to tie him being "queer-coded" to his vampirism in a very stretch-worthy attempt to say Larian is trying to say being queer is evil is one of the most insane reaches I've ever heard. If they are so hell-bent on shaming queerness, why hasn't this come up with any other character? They can all be queer. I mean, hell, you have Aylin and Isobel who are downright celebrated so I don't know where you're getting that.

3. The AA path, in my opinion, is supposed to bother people. But not because "queer is bad" (because it isn't and I'd bet money Larian doesn't think so) but because the sacrifices made to true power are painted in evil sacrifice with erases good nature. It's about power corrupting completely. After Astarion ascends, if you romance him, he sees you as his property rather than an equal. He becomes paranoid, domineering, and lacking all self-awareness he had about doing what he could to not be like Cazador. That's the point.

I am a little tired with people pretending AA is a good guy underneath it all; I'm sure you've all seen the justifications. "If you really want Astarion to be happy, then Ascend him." But then he becomes power-hungry to the point that he wants to bleed the world dry, I mean...

Either way, this is why people are bothered by the kisses. Tav has a victim's face when Astarion replicates the night he turns you by making you get on your knees. It's cause she has no choice anymore. She's his spawn. But everyone wantes AA to remain their dark romance which I understand.

I think they should change the victim face she gets. No one should be comfortable with non-consensual behavior. But at the end of the day, I wouldn't put it past AA. He really really really isn't a good person.

OP You seem to be confusing flamboyant and pretty with his sexuality in some peculiar mind game I don't understand.
To me as an older female player none of his flamboyance or his looks screams homosexual, or otherwise, to me in any way, he's just a character that I happen to like.
I grew up with an uncle - a happily married man by the time I knew him, who had been a total womaniser in his younger days (his sister, my mother, had to cover for him between all of his different female conquests and he always ensured they all used the same perfume) - who had similar personality traits and was totally flamboyant, sometimes even more so than Astarion - women adored him and he adored them. That's not to say Astarion isn't gay just that I don't think its relevant.

Its just a different personality type to what you are used to maybe, and deciding that he is 'queer coded' is doing a disservice to the game developers.

The element of unease, whatever else it may relate to in Larian's mind, has nothing at all to do with him being homosexual or otherwise.
None of the companions are anything other than Tav coded, they aren't homosexual or straight, they will happily romance tav no matter what gender or race they are.

Regarding the unease in the last big patch: It seems Larian want to remind players that Vampire Lord = evil. Which would be fine except Ascended Astarion isn't a DnD vampire lord (or any other known type of vampire), he's something new and no DnD lore covers him as yet, his path was created just for this game.
No player who ascends him (and I have played unascended and ascended) is unaware of his evil side - no one is that daft and Larian hammers it home at every opportunity, the thing Ascended Astarion romancers object to is the fear in Tav/Durge's face in the new kiss animations which are completely weird as Tav/Durge knows exactly what Astarion is, and ascended him anyway.
No way is Tav scared of him and players are objecting to a role playing game defining how a player 'should' feel.

I dont know if we played the same game, my dude, but Astarion's queerness quietly and beautifully blossoms the more safe and happy he feels. As it should be.

He's queer as a spawn, and he is queer as AA, because that's who he is, regardless of being good or bad.

What i mean is that he isnt closeting himself for being a spawn, nor he is more gay for ascending, lol i shouldnt take this kind of posts seriously anymore but being an old queer ass myself i cant help it.
Cant believe we have one good rep and people still see things that ain there.

Because they're queer women. Every queer man in the story is either evil or gets fridged. The story only glorifies and objectifies sapphic women to appeal to the game's heterosexual-male target audience.

You believe good queer rep is when the queer-coded character sexually assaults the player character, and one of his endings is about him becoming an abusive sexual predator?

I imagine we're going to see people insisting that BG3 is good PoC rep too, because the only black party member is a character who was written as a lazy wannabe who got his powers the easy way through association with devils, in contrast to the white party member who was just so good at magic that a literal goddess got horny for him.

Firstly, I feel like everyone is tired of the AA kiss discourse at this point.

Secondly, Larian has some amazing queer rep, and twisting into knots to argue that the AA kiss is somehow homophobic is truly impressive and a brand new angle.

Thirdly, all origin characters are pansexual, Astarion isn't somehow queerer just because he's theatrical. Some of the arguments in OP's post are just harmful stereotypes.

Newsflash, gay people can be flawed, can be evil, can be good, can be pure angels. There's nothing different between us and heterosexuals. We are not 'special'.

'Good queer rep'. Holy hell. This is why most people are afraid to make gay people flawed in media lately and it gets VERY stale, fast. I'd take flawed characters who happen to be gay over 'gay = automatically good' easily.

And he's ascended. He gets quite mad, he killed all those poor spawns just so he can ascend. He gets possessive. That's the point of his other ending, his evil one.
Don't want all of this? Don't ascend him.


Hard same.


Sincerely, a lesbian. Just in case you accuse me of being a homophobe, like you are accusing Larian of right now.

+1, another lesbian here. Give me a flawed character with some good story, gay or not, I honestly don't care. But for the love of god, people really need to stop this "good queer rep" bullshit. It's not doing any favors to us. AT ALL.


And yes, enough with Astarion already. You don't like new Ascended Astarion animations, don't go that route, no one is forcing you to choose it.

Because there's nothing wrong with storytelling where the only roles queer men are allowed to have is either a one-note villain, a rapist and groomer, or a sexual assaulter.

There's a world of difference between "gay characters aren't morally perfect" and "all queer men are either evil or rapists."

Being a lesbian just means that you don't care how queer men are dehumanized by the story, because Larian is happy to relish in fetishization of queer female stories while it vilifies queer male sexuality. If that's what you want, then you want storytelling where every queer man is expected to be or is explicitly a rapist for being a queer man.

Honey, you're reaching here. Very hard. No one was crying about lesbian character in Horizon Forbidden West when she was evil. Why? Because we accept that gay characters can be flawed and they should be flawed, it makes them feel human, not some caricature of a person.

Wyll and Gale, crying rn. Convenient that you only focus on Astarion and forget the other good men.

Also Astarion can be good. Know how? Choose not to ascend him. Easy peachy. Also you're troll posting at other characters threads now so this will be my last reply to you.

Because the villainous queer female character in that game wasn't a rapist, with their evil nature demonstrated via attempted rape, and their sexuality wasn't constantly associated with being a predatory monster.

First: Astarion isn't gay. Every companion is playersexual, so maybe you should focus on Wyll, because he's a good person?
Second: Actually, people accused that certain lesbian character in Horizon about being a rapist and a groomer as well. So again, no one was angry that it was a lesbian, I haven't even met a lesbian that was angry about that storyline.

I think you're just easily offended and you're looking for a reason to be offended. And for the last time, I'll repeat - don't play Ascended Astarion path, problem solved!

You might want to rethink this phrase if you have a sliver of decency.


Honestly i did read already some concerning takes on AA, that i fear those people (maybe too young?) might easily fall in an abusive relationship dangerously easy. It is meant as a cautionary tale and people keep doubling down on Larian changing him when they just emphatised what already was crystal clear. Ascending is his villain origin story, no more, no less. A warning that anyone (lgtbq OR NOT, godsdammit) with the glass full, might go dark with a bit of encouragement.

Sometimes I think the horrible accessibility of this forum might be a good thing, because if it doesn't condemn its users to a mandatory chill-out time every once in a while, the level of anger, hate, whine and wild conspiracy theories it sprouts is mind-boggling.

I've had that same thought about the forums many times, but then I also recall that unlike say the late 90s or the aughts which seemed somehow hopeful on the upswing, the times now are increasingly fraught and full of paranoia and this will have spillover and knockon effects of all sorts. I think if one wants the game to be queer coded and situated in that history the code to look at would be Hays and how the game uses cinematic tropes from that era perhaps as a kind of establishing baseline to then riff from. My own headcanon is that if doing that, perhaps some of the characterizations in the game are somehow meant to be descriptive (rather than prescriptive models) of the general backsliding that has happened in recent times on multiple fronts IRL. So that where we find ourselves now, we look around and the situation in Faerun seems more fraught than ever and more tropic than ever. But then it holds up a mirror in that way as well. It is forgivable I think, when the game does this essentially through humor and levity rather than gravity, if only because the clearest analog I can think of reaches back in time much further than even the 90s or the 80s or the dawn of D&D out of 70s counter culture.

D&D is the single weirdest and most beautiful work of collective art to come out of the postwar strife in the 50 and 60s I bet. Like this oddball alliance between peaceniks who for some curious reason were obsessed with toy soldiers and miniature wargames, but also poetry and theater and pulp fantasy and illustration, and math and probability, and they made games and computers, and then games to play on those computers, and the whole architecture that we now use to communicate and discuss them, pinballing around the globe at the speed of light or almost.

I think it appeals probably in different ways depending on how high information the audience is and what they are bringing to the table, and also where they are, and with reference and allegorical riffs they might nod at, which make me think the intent might be to spotlight how far we haven't come. Like we want the devs to show us how far we've come, so the escapist fantasy can hold, but the lesson is perhaps something completely different than that. Not sure there, just a theory. I have been very fixated on the character of Viconia and Sarevok in this regard, as returning characters who had a certain arc that I recall from the old times. Where I left Sarevok after the throne of Bhaal he had come around completely. Viconia had become true neutral too. On the other end of the spectrum Jaheira had Khalid in the Refrigerator, Edwin was Edwina, and Anomen of course was just Anomen. The rearview mirror on that one is usually alright though. Like where the game sorta matches the general timeline.

At that time Melissa had come out not even 10 years prior in like 93? Interview with a Vampire hit the big screen what 94? Dracula had only happened back in 92. Then there was a troubled time starting around 2000, when things started getting so horrid. Then another time a decades on where things seemed to reset, but not really, then everything fell off a cliff war and war and a pandemic etc. Now we're in a time that most of us haven't even thought might be possible, except maybe in reading histories of the early 20th century, and what it was really like back then (spoiler* it wasn't great at all.)

Straight up nightmare, Haunted One really. But I live in the States, so you can probably imagine. Shit is super hectic right now depending on where you live, and the sorts of peeps you kick it with, and where you stand on the alignment chart. Some wingnut wizards probably would burn every single D&D book ever published if they could, and none of us would get to play a game like this. It might be the single most important game to land in 24, because it is overtly much more accepting, but then the story it tells also has this sort of veiled reminder of the world outside. Like oh shit, are we at the purity Bhaal for real? Fuck. Like not in the game, but when we look out the window? That's when it hits me hard, like oh my goodness, maybe this game really is my favorite thing to come out in years and years - not for what it says per se, but rather in that it gives us a kind of grammar or a cypher that can be used outside the game too. One which allows people to discuss stuff that they might not otherwise ever have had a chance to discuss, or know how to, like to be understood or reach out meaningfully. But basically handled in metaphor, via characters that are figurative and not just abstract symbols or idealized in that way, but something a little easier to recognize.

So yeah I don't know for sure. What I do know is that on it's face the game codes for many things and perhaps not in the most flattering light if we are just fixating on the trope itself as a starting point. If we move more to where it ends up, the story basically delivered across multiple playthroughs, the impression I get becomes rather different and I'm pretty impressed, honestly. The meme-ability and shorthand which the game provides then becomes like some sort of zine or hip hop on skateboards for the new era, but unlike the stuff I remember, the youth are totally online and immersed now in deep water, and there aren't as many ways to connect across the big divides. Except perhaps in arenas like this? I swear gameplay and the spirit of it, is like the only thing that will save humanity from itself. It's like a bulwark and shield, and not at all a waste of time or energy.

Honestly where else are we finding games like this that millions are playing, and still playing, and which produce so much conversation on so many wide ranging topics? When hugs and kisses can just dive immediately into say queer history or race relations or refugees and the dispossessed, identity and representation in popular media and just all this stuff, that barely gets a footnote in some other arenas. Also, if we look to say film or cinema and theater (shows and such) the level of sophistication there is often very high information. We are extraordinarily film literate as a society now, so that is reflected in those works a bit more deftly. But in games this is still relatively new, or it's still new in newer games, I mean, if that makes sense. I give them so much leeway for even attempting it. The scale of it all is still staggering to me. And that's after a couple years in the kitchen. I'm really curious where they may go next with it.

I'm probably overthinking it though, I'm almost certainly overthinking it. Probably. This game activates my goodberry ADHD, then spins me around in the hyperphant blender. My dyslexia on the boards plus some low key anxiety and nostalgia, and cautionary tales, all in the cauldron. It's fascinating though, how no matter where things begin, over time the discourse in any thread seems to elevate eventually I'm amazed and feel like it's a bit of a BG Renaissance. That makes me happy cause a good Baldur's Gate game I think can herald a positive change and some progress, even when that stuff is hard to spot elsewhere. Least where I live.

The best thing they could do for me would be what the youngest cohort has already decided, to implode gender as a complex completely and just ditch it as one of those antiquated things that does more harm than good. For someone who grew up when I did, I would never have thought in those terms, because it was hardcoded, not the people but the discourse. It was invisible in the way that grammar is invisible. I can't understand grammar until I've tried to learn another language and then have something to compare it to. That's the only way to get a view on it, but also so hard as an adult. I only mention that because it's such a useful frame for thinking about other stuff that often gets baked in when we don't even realize it, aren't aware of it because we're awash in it, especially when younger but really at any age. I think the framing up there at the top is problematic, but also like maybe it's more the placement or the place that's problematic. Astarion is a lot of things to a lot of people, but mostly what they are bringing to the table on it, I'd wager. Still it's interesting to hear what other people think. I don't think the game is particularly sexual at all really, even though I hear that refrain all the time, I think it's that we live in more repressive times than we realize and there is a lot of disempowerment still floating around. That leads to reaching for any power in some cases and rash moves in some quarters probably, but it's like not in the game, so much as outside the game and the conversation surrounding the game. Cause the game too lives in the world. I kinda wish it had come out 10 years ago, but games are so complicated they lag behind a bit. You can tell mostly from the haircuts and such and little fashion things, little echoes in the design. Say the music or how things are visualized, like they're never quite timely timely, but a bit of a time capsule already by the time we get them. The game of right now, is maybe a parable of the era in which is was born. Latter half of the 20-late teens to early 2020s, and it arrives in 2024 in earnest or whenever the curtain is called. Like when it comes out on disc.

I think the next game, they might try to frontline a different sort of dimension to this, one which is top of mind for me and perhaps a few others I bet. This would be not Astarion's treatment of the PCs, but the PCs treatment of the animals and woodland creatures. In other words, make the Vampirism the analog for that, for what happens to the random boars and such, as opposed to the Party. Instead of humanizing and anthropomorphizing and apotheoses romance, perhaps the game is about the woodland animals and how the forest is being burned to the ground. The vampire in that scheme, perhaps makes a different judgement and could tie in with the set up of this game. For example, before we reach the grove, I imagine the average player is pretty high on the hog and not thinking a game would go there. Probably would expect that maybe hunting is component of the play, animals are there for use and nothing more, but then we reach the awakened grove and the animals start speaking to use, as if human. In my headcanon this is Silvanus and Chauntea speaking through the animals. I think that could a pretty interesting setup. 7000 spawn go down and the player sometimes feels it. 7000 chickens or cows or pigs go down, nobody cares. But maybe they might if the game did it up to the nines? I could see that as an angle. Kicking the boar to the curb was a low point, like kicking the squirrel was probably Durge's lowest point. This is what they call fright of fancy, cause it doesn't even fly really. Like if we got up to bat, but it's just an enemy that Cazador throws back at us? Batman at this point perhaps would consult with the bats to get it sorted. Not sure, I wasn't going to thread again, but then I've just been ruminating on it for a while I guess. Sometimes the arc on the finish is way more interesting than the arch at the start, for whatever that's worth.

You know, I feel we've become a new kind of media-illiterate, media-parrots if you will. There's so much perceived intertextuality, so many tropes, that it's all there is. Instead of engaging with the text first, it becomes spot the trope or spot the social hot-topic - no matter how relevant it is in the context of the piece of media you are currently observing.

That's where the whole "Gale was groomed" thing comes from, or Astarion as a Dark Romance. Do I see where those theories come from? Sure. Are they in the text itself? Hells, no, not with some twisting, squinting and giving it a side-eye in favour of your favourite fancy. Vampirism isn't about sexual assault here - because sex is about sex here, and about bonding - it's about power. During bite-night Astarion proves himself to be free from Cazador's compulsion while still giving in to his master's philosophy of power and domination.

The whole queerness rep is also a bit difficult because it's not even a topic in this Faerûn we play in. You don't get discriminated because of whom you love or because you don't adhere to some gender stereotype. It's simply all fine and absolutely normal. The real wish-fulfilment-fantasy really.

I don't think BG3 is an overly sexual game either. The marketing is sexy and kinky, yes. Some stuff that goes down in Act 3 quenches the blue bird's thirst. But the rest treats relationships and sex more as forms of connection. Astarion and Gale are very direct about it, Astarion talks about his issues and Gale tells you that for him it's a way to better understand yourself as well as the other person. I don't know about the other companions.

What gets to me and bugs me, is the hostility in the discourse. I've nice discussions here, even - or especially - when disagreeing with someone. They have been interesting and fun.

But then there is the hate and the whatever it is that incentivises someone to c&p the same long-ass quote of their own text into every bloody thread vaguely related to the subject mater. The Karlach thread is at this point a "We hate Gale" thread because they are jelly of his bad (!) God ending and see him becoming a professor as a sign of status and not as what it is framed as in the game, a position to help people. I assume, if there'd be an option to get Karlach's heart fixed in exchange for her soul, they'd happily jump on it. (Says something, if a thread about a character does absolutely not discuss the character at all.) There is the whole Smooch-discussion which has sprouted insane conspiracy theories (3D sadistic porn animator - really? ) and an absolutely wild spiral of outrage and ever repeating arguments of self affirmation and victimhood. The Halsin-brothel thread is nice for the most part but attracts the occasional dude who feels emasculated because his pixel-wife does not respect him enough and needs an outlet that compensates a shotgun.

Really, we need more pets to pet, inside the game and in the wild. Pamper all those 7K spawn - they deserve nice things and happiness - and try to talk with every squirrel and every strange ox.