Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

How is it ambiguous? He says outright that because the netherbrain and tadpole are gone, your future is his to decide. The tadpole that we've seen definitively negate the power for a master to control their spawn. Because that tadpole isn't there, your future is his to decide. Why would that be the case if not because he can control you? He may not spell it out in specific wording, but that doesn't mean it's ambiguous. it's like the end of Disny's Tarzan, saying Clayton's death is ambiguous because he died offscreen. Yes it's ambiguous in the most technical meaning of the word, but the movie is stating what happened so clearly that the intent is clearly for the audience to understand that the man died. Some things have ambiguity to them, such as the nature of Astarion as an ascended vampire and what that means, or what part the archdevil might continue to play in his future. But unless come the epilogue you can actually be broken up with Astarion, there's clearly no ambiguity intended in that exchange.

For YOU, it is NOT ambiguous. I agree on that. For other people but it IS ambiguous. More I don't need to say. I am not here to convince you otherwise. You can have your mind and be happy.

Hotfix #22 came out, but unfortunately our problem hasn't been addressed yet.

There were several people who expressed the desire to be able to choose between rough and gentle kisses, myself included. I believe the best scenario is to have two options when you ask for the kiss itself, without dependency on the night of turning, which is a unique scene that results in Tav's off-screen death and is related to drinking blood instead of kissing. Besides, the more options the better - one day Tav might enjoy a sweeter kiss and the following one something more passionate.

Oh, BioWare have always written amazing stories and characters. BG2 had the courage to show characters with personality, not just "comfortable" and "right", but the kind that willingly argue with the player, refuse the player's choices and can walk away at any time if your decisions seem wrong to them. In BG2 all heroes were clearly divided by worldview and for the sake of protoganist they were not going to change it. You couldn't convince Edwin to become "good and right", but you could change his attitude to you personally as a player. And it was cool, yes the character himself hasn't changed, he still treats others with contempt, but you personally are special to him and he is ready to reckon with you.
Until patch 6 with AA everything was great, Tav for him is special, even if all the others he is ready to use, although as we see in the epilogue is not ready and the maximum that he is able to capture is a wine cellar. Oh this is the "great evil AA" who just throws masquerade balls, drinks wine and enjoys life with Tav. It's just that AA fans have an ending like the old Disney fairy tale "happily ever after". I think fans of Astarion's spawn are just jealous of us, they don't have a palace, power and a living vampire who doesn't even have to drink blood, who is ready to fulfill Tav's every whim. That's why it was necessary to spoil our holiday and add patch 6, so that we are not happy.

I am not sure, if I do understand you correctly, but do you basically want pre-ritual kisses and then a new set of kisses for both routes?

If UA enjoyers need their beloved cycle of abuse story to be validated by having an alternative path suddenly destroyed and unplayable then yeah... clearly it's not that well written if it can't stand on its own or they're just salty/jealous. Or both.

If Astarion is not an abuser then it shows they denied him the ritual for nothing, imposed their morals on him and made him miserable in the process.

Though we walk the same path, we look upwards and see two skies.

Maybe it's just that your sky is in diamonds and you need to get out of Underdark.))

This is called having your own opinion and perspective on things. We don't live in a dictatorship. At least not me.


Well said Unfortunately, envy can sometimes cause a lot.

Totally agree

I am very much the interpretation here is of two things the kneeling is a reassurance that AA is held to such a standard that has been missing for 200 years. he was fed rats and buried alive etc..
It is a consensual kneeling "you are my Lord"
The degradation thing is a self esteem issue.

Lets just put my perspective In here I'm not some youngster I'm very much classed as middle-aged I'm sure some think I must be young to think this.
as an observer of people in my day to day life body language etc... are they a threat to people

Astarion really is never a threat in his romance yes he's a manipulator to get what he wants
pretty sure I used that Tactic when I was in my early 20's and learned from my mistakes in part he also learns by his mistakes ACT 2 confession.
If your general Tav is a chaotic -neutral character in line with how he seems portrayed to me he is actually very supportive and likes talking chaos *Power doesn't mean he actually wants it.(he chooses not to Ascend)
AA He isn't exactly keen on you being a dark gods pawn but he will stand by Tav it's probably down to his possessiveness DU Tav is his to a point.

The Patch 6 kisses are OOC Tav's face is the bigger problem in my eyes it just makes my skin crawl this is not what I see in his overall personality if I saw this in real life I'd be reporting them to the police and try and give the girl a helpline number no one should be subjected to this in public. You can go the kink side of things generally thats behind closed doors and usually both will enjoy it they just need their safe word just in case.

The relationship is only of equals on an evil play through or hedonistic play through
Generally a mortal good willed Tav is completely screwed by Ascension.
It isn't his good end and it can be debatable that Spawn doesn't really have a good end though the epilogue seems to be course correcting.

On a note as the 7000 spawns seems to be the deal breaker on his evil side
That moral question to do with the spawns if he doesn't carve the Runes has a huge indicator on how bad all 3 are with the Paladins Oath
Kill the spawns - Oath broken (Devotion)
Leave the spawns in cages- Oath broken (Vengeance)
Free the Spawns- Oath broken (Ancient)

I like Astarion as a whole and I see this as two sides of his personality I do not prefer one over the other.

Zhak maal Orpheus! The prince of comet will rise and the two skies will become one!

I think this would be the easiest solution to the problem for developers. The night of the conversion - choice kissing. And for those who choose "okay, let it hurt" change the frightened faces.


I think Florika meant that in giving up the ritual, Spawn wasn't given anything new at all. No new kisses, no new phrases. Since before the ritual, all fans have they same Astarion, those who choose AA, have before the ritual all of Spawn's kisses and after the ritual, new kisses. And Spawn is left with two kisses and nothing new.

Thank you, though I don't really mind. I do mind, that the one new kiss all versions of Astarion get was not optimised for all character heights and that it looks awkward for all but tall Tavs. ^^;

So there is no worldview in the game. This means that a class like "paladin" as a whole cannot work properly and it is very problematic to win it back. If we reveal the tenets of each of the presented oaths, then all three should fly when releasing 7 spawns. Paladin Devotion has violated the dogma of Duty. "Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protecting those you protect, and obey those who have power over you." Releasing 7k spawns is definitely an irresponsible action, because they cannot be controlled. With the oath of the Ancients, it is clear that the very existence of 7k spawns contradicts the laws of Life. Paladin Vengeance has violated three points of the oath at once: "Do not spare any evil." "To fight a great evil" (releasing 7 to spawn is a greater evil than destroying them) and "At any cost - my remorse should not stop me from fighting evil"

The fact is that when a relationship breaks down at the end of the game, Astarion does not use his vampire power for threats, control, and so on. He is like a simple toxic person, an abuser, uses words, ordinary words, screams and gets angry, makes Tav think that he can control Tav, that without Astarion Tav is nothing. Bluff. No magic. He is afraid that Tav wants to break up, he doesn’t want this, so he resorts to threats in order to keep Tav with him. That's how I see it.

I've come to the conclusion I don't understand something about humanity,
When Unascended Astarion players complained about the Dock Scene, I sympathised. I added my voice to the calls for it to be changed because it was a poorly written scene that made players unhappy.
When Karlach fans made calls to change her ending I added my voice to the calls for it to be changed or some element of hope added, because it was an unecessarily sad ending.
When Wyll fans complain about the lack of content I added my voice to the calls for more to be added, even though I actually have little time for Wyll and find him irritating, because it makes players unhappy that he has little going on and no agency.
When Minthara fans complain about the lack of content I add my voice to the calls for more to be added, even though I don't find her all that appealing, but her fans do and I support where I can for giving more content to an undeveloped companion.

But when Ascended Astarion fans call for something to be changed, something added in a patch 8 months after release that no one asked for in the first place. Instead of support from the community we get dogpiled on by players who have never played with him in this route and treated like we are somehow idiots for wanting this romance and we are soooo stupid that we don't understand he's evil.

I don't get it, I really don't.

I understand you. I do exactly the same as you. I can understand the choices and paths of other players, I never prove that their path is wrong. And when it comes to AAstarion they attack us and say that we see everything wrong, this is very upsetting.
We have to constantly defend ourselves and make excuses, argue.

Thank you all for your answers and support. I'm glad that I was mostly understood.
Anska, no, not really, maybe at least one new one for UA, and for AA can leave the pre-rituals kisses if you choose to "be gentle" on the night of the turning, in order not to repeat, they can give him that kiss that was before the 5th patch, it seems.
Mirmi explained well what I meant. It's strange that UA has the same kisses that he had before completing his quest. After rejection the ritual, it cannot be said that it didn't affect him in any way. I think he has changed no less than the Ascended Astarion has changed.
That is, in the second act we have two kisses that all the players who romance Astarion will see, then depending on the completion of his quest, at the ascension we currently get three more new ones, but without the ascension the same ones remain.