Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

It seems to me that everything is much simpler. They just wanted to say directly that at ascension he not only does not respect you, but also does not love you, he is now an abuser. What is devoid of any subtlety and simply illogical.
As for the route of spawn, some assumptions and opinions here do not seem very delicate to me. To enjoy the path of ascension, one does not need to somehow belittle the other route. After all, this Astarion is the same person, be it UA or AA.
There is a moral dilemma with 7,000 souls and it is not a joke. To say that spawns are cursed, soulless and not innocent... well, it's hard to agree with that.
I understand that everyone see things differently and it's very cool, but I still don't think UA is unhappy. The scene at the docks is terrible, and that's what needs improvement on this route. But in general, he is happy, he is loved and loves, and he is free.

Each path gives and opens something for him and closes something, even takes away.
Exploring them both is like 3d.




I think the same way.

Well said. I myself like, even if I said, Spawn Astarion feels empty for me, both routes, because I like people to be happy and enjoy, what they prefer.

Noone knows for sure if it was accidentaly or intentionally. At least, that's what we are hoping or would be the best outcome. So that they would recognize the mistake and change the scenes to be consensual.


In the romance scenes Astarion changes in both routes in my opinion. In one more, in one less. He is or behaves not exactly the same as he was. In the main story, there is not so much difference. But everyone is free to have their own opinion.

There is a difference, of course. But in romance he is in love in both routes.
That's why AA's new kisses worried us so much.
Or Tav should enjoy it, and (preferably) there should be another option for kissing ("be gentle", perhaps).

Thanks for the explanation. I agree, the afterlife in that world is pretty off-putting.

Yes, Astarion loves and adores Tav in both routes And kisses should show this, too.

This is what is so infuriating when reading through these sometimes. People defend their headcanons for a route they will never experience, a choice they will never make, for a fictional character in a video game that is supposed to be about playing how you want. Meanwhile the Real People who make this choice and play this route, are asking to remove something that is seriously upsetting to them in Real Life. We're asking for something to be removed that was added in much later than the game's release. The fact that we have to actually explain why being forced to simulate abuse is more important to address vs. "headcanons of abuse because of breakup line videos on youtube" baffles me. The fact that we have to explain the "difference in nuance" of "Tav's face looks a little funny in the conversations sometimes" vs. "Tav's face showing abject terror in an intimate scene is extremely upsetting to those with history of abuse" is ridiculous.

I played through the AA route as a fairly good/neutral Tav. It was PERFECT as a dark romance. It left it ambiguous enough that if you wanted to really want venture into the territory of "cycle of abuse" you could (odd choice, but who am I to judge?), or "it's a classic possessive vampire romance trope" you also could. The ambiguity of the the bride theory is fantastic. The ambiguity is what leaves room for role playing in the... role playing game.

These animations not only completely remove player agency, they are actively damaging to players in real life. Full stop. That's the issue.

The PC's face needs to be changed - top priority.

If we're asking for a list of wants I'd also like the patch 5 kiss added back in, (it worked really well as a possessive kiss... that waist grab and pull in? woof....)
I hate that "you're my favorite" line. Maybe it's just a callback to his "My favorite travelling companion" line, but it's so dumb. I roll my eyes when I hear it. I shouldn't be rolling my eyes at my LI.
I also am not too much of a fan of how cartoonish AA's "Astarion Poster Face" is. Some seem to like it though, but he pulled it at the Morphic Pool and I'm just like, "okay, this is silly"
The kneeling kiss should not trigger outside of camp. A rule of kink is "don't force others into your kink"... you keep it subtle, or you keep it in the bedroom.

Possessive, obsessive vampire love is the what we had and what we want back. Badly done "daddy dom" while my character looks terrified of their partner is, what do the kids say, "not the vibe." (Do they still say that?)

Sorry I keep quote replying to you but you make some really good points that make me go "YES!!! THANK YOU!!!!" That's a really good point about the kneeling kiss. It does seem to take away from the On. Your. Knees. conversion scene. That scene always made me think of "Bedroom Hymns" by Florence + the Machine. We submit ourselves to him, in sense of worship, and we consume of each other "I granted you a single drop of my blood" in a profane ritual of our own. Now we just plop on our knees right in from of Sorcerer's Sundries for the whole Lower City to see. It cheapens it.

And now all of the sudden we are terrified of this? Okay...

Louder for the people in the back.
Seriously!
If you, as a broad audience media producer, ever find yourself thinking, "Hey, let's make players be able to RP abuse! :D" ... consider what in *poor* taste that is.

If you want to make a statement about abuse--forcing the playing to SURPRISE SIMULATE IT is not the way to do it. Full stop. Poor form. Completely insensitive.


Exactly. They had it. They had it perfectly. We already *had* what we wanted. We're not asking for anything unreasonable or extra. We're along for what already existed. For a game, with roleplay, and not the authors personal moral interjection.

I completely agree!


Yes, here. Hihihi. Sorry, I really do like the sadistic poster smirk, the shove right before and also the kneeling scene everywhere. I'd like to experience it in every place, I go, and not only in the camp, where also companions are watching. Also for editing pictures in better places. I apologize for being into Astarion's sadistic kink But well, I agree in all the other things you've said. I didn't understand, how they could remove the patch 5 kiss, as it was a perfect one for everyone. Add more stuff, great. But removing good things.. meh. And people, who are not into dominant kisses should also be able to enjoy their romance, so bringing patch 5 kiss back and have the choice between rough (but consensual of course!) and gentle kisses, would maybe be the best for everyone.

Yes the "You are my favourite, after all" sounds odd, most people dislike it. It's funny, but when I put this line into Google, the first site showing up with exact this line contains "abuse" and "torture" (and no, it's not the Larian Forum), at least in my country. It doesn't sit well, lol

I agree with you completely.
I cannot understand why some people argue so vehemently for keeping in something in a video game that is upsetting in people in real life.
-Especially when the animations were added in a patch long after release
-When the player character's body language and facial expressions seem at odds with the dialogue that comes before and after
-When players can still roleplay that their Tav is afraid of A.A. if they want (you wouldn't ask for a kiss if you knew you were going to be abused but could simply avoid it, surely?).

Interestingly, nobody on this forum who is arguing for keeping Tav's body language and expressions in the patch 6 kisses, has said that they personally are into that sort of sadistic treatment of a romance partner in-game, or that they find the interaction between A.A. and a terrified player character hot. (apologies if someone did say that)
The arguments for keeping things as they are seem to boil down to arguing that romancing A.A. is bad and the player should feel bad if they choose to do it.
That's disturbing.

You weirdo (kidding!!!) I think I'm in the "unpopular opinion" with the poster smirk, I think it's just on top of everything, my cope is to just make it all seem ridiculous, so that's included in it. I would probably enjoy it more if my character looked like she actually enjoyed it.

At first I didn't like the shoves, but I realized that again, if my Tav's face had a cheeky smirk back, it would totally change it into something more playful.

Oh, I didn't know anything about the plot at all in my first playthrough, and I went to the ritual, because as soon as Astarion acquired his will, learned about the benefits of the ritual, and longed for it, I decided that I would definitely help him with this. After all, he suffered so much. He wanted the sun, he wanted power, he wanted to decide everything himself. And he also loves his eternal youth, he likes luxurious things. And so we came to the ritual, there was a scream "What have you done", I didn't really pay attention to it, then Astarion killed Cazador, the spawns were killed, but I think something is wrong here, I think, okay, probably everything is OK. But then there was a conversation that the ritual could not be carried out, Astarion regrets it of course, but what is done is done, he did not have joy in sight, then I got a scene in the cemetery, and again I did not recognize Astarion, I see him clearly depressed, a quiet voice, sweet words mixed with longing. I believe he's sad, and I don't believe he's happy, he's led by our character now. What the hell, where is my ritual, I thought, it turned out we accidentally killed Spawn sister...I rebooted, I did everything right, and here he is, standing confident, important, main, bold, the way he was, but a little more confident. There is no problem for me to sacrifice 7 thousand unknown spawns for the sake of a single one. His happiness is important to me, the whole world is not interested. It's like in the Greedfall game, I chose Constantin at the end because he's my family, he didn't deserve everything that happened to him. And for me, only he is important, and this rotten empty world is dealing with its own problems, which it has created for itself.
Let's return to Astarion.He got what he wanted so much, eternal life, eternal youth, without the limitations of simple vampires, of course he wants his partner to share this power and eternal life with him, he is obsessed with a partner, he wants to lead, and I like it, this is the Astarion that I see from the first act, only more confident in himself. Now his main weakness is our character, which is why he reacts so painfully to the end of a relationship, if it is organized, and in the end he does not let go at all, because it hurts him to lose his treasure, with whom he shared everything he has, trusted us, and the partner accepted it, and then decided to leave, how so?
In the next playthrough, I chose spawn to know how things were going there. I understand the choice of those who do this, he is comfortable and convenient for a partner, but this is not for me, he is very depressed, although he tries to hold himself proudly, but he has clearly suffered. He was persuaded to do something that he did not want to do, or it happened by accident, but he regrets it, but there is no choice and therefore he adapts. In this relationship, I see Astarion as that night, if he is forced to have sex, such an unhappy expression on his face. It seems to me that he does not accidentally say only one phrase about what we are to you. The first part of this sentence seems to be true... Nothing special... And there was such pain at the docks in general, I would never choose such a thing for him, and we just stand there and do nothing, what? Well, in the tavern, these words of his say a lot, it was recorded before the 6th patch, but nothing has changed with the 6th patch, he is sad, resigned to his fate, completely dependent on us.
If you break up with him, he's just stunned, he literally sacrificed everything for us, and we leave him. I think he will never forget what our character did, what he deprived him of, even if it happened by accident. When there is a break up in the epilogue, he says so, I will not let anyone else decide for me, everything depends only on me, this is an approximate text.
I expressed my personal attitude to AA and UA, in no case do I condemn anyone, and I do not say that your choice is bad or wrong. I understand that everyone has a different vision of the situation. I have it like that, I understand that someone thinks differently. And that's okay. And of course I'm all for it if the spawn line is improved. I will be happy for the people who chose this path and were satisfied. And I hope for mutual understanding in the case of AA. That for those who consciously choose AA and know that we are his forever and we are not against it, the frightened face of our character makes no sense, it is completely taken out of context, where there is not a single quarrel with AA, where we are completely entrusted to him.

I have the permission of the You Tube creator's to share her poll here for any of you to vote on that the kisses bother as well for AA. If you would like to vote, please do so. Please be respectful on her You Tube page as well, this is my request for those of you would like to participate. Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxVL1qb0C-BXHKgluc9W_B2i8GTzIGl95z

Per NirraArt

Done

Thank you for sharing the link. Done

Yes, I really want this too! Astarion really doesn’t want to let Tav go in this kiss. <3 He kind of keeps reaching for Tav as Tav ends the kiss. This was my favorite kiss, I played it constantly with or without reason.




That's it! We want to preserve existing history. If we talk about adding content, then just add the ability to hug and kiss Astarion in the epilogue, as you can do with other companions. Kiss for real, and not as if it were an insert from a movie about three types of domestic violence.


As a rule, if you directly ask a person whether they like these scenes as a viewer of the video, or whether they enjoy them as a participant in the events, then the answer is silence... Well, or the arguments that you indicated.


I agree, I was particularly upset by these shoves at first, but when I watched the video where the author made Tav’s face neutral (at least that way!) and showed it from a slightly different angle, it was received much better. How cute Astarion hooliganism

illeaillas-san, I agree with every line of your post. I couldn’t even reach the end of the UA path, it’s too difficult emotionally, and the whole game loses all meaning for me in this case. Yes, this is a personal attitude, some people think differently, but you can't shove traumatic content into players who don't want, can't, and don't intend to perceive and experience the story the way it is “considered true” in someone's author's idea or headcanon, regardless of the number of people who share this “canon” or sympathize with the author's intentions. If Astarion is more important to us than the “moral rules” of this game world, then these should be the problems of the world, let it react to it as it pleases (but within the framework of the realism of the narrative), and not the problems of real people who “love” Astarion too much. And they will still help him ascend, or not play the game at all.

If I'm totally honest I don't really care about moral quandaries in a game.
I tend to make reasonably good choices - mainly cos that's how I am in real life, but equally I know its a game and don't worry if I don't.
People don't give two hoots sideways if someone kills everyone in the emerald grove but that would equally be considered evil in my book, given innocent (to the best of our knowledge) refugees and kids, but that's fine - it's their game not mine, and whatever reason they choose to do that it is their decision and has nothing to do with any moral quandary I may have.

I tell Shadowheart to make her own decisons in the Shadowfell (in fact I keep quiet, it's her choice not mine)
I let Laezel make her own decisions with Voss (just tell her I've got her back either way)
If Wyll had agency I would allow him to make his own choice over his pact (he doesn't so its the only time I make an NPC's possibly life changing decision for them)
To me Ascending Astarion is no different.
We've known these people for a very short space of time, what would make me think I have any right to enforce my morals on them?
They have helped me so I will help them, they haven't given me a 10 page questionnaire over moral choices so I won't do that to them, if one of them leaves that's up to them.

So moral arguments about Astarion being evil don't matter to me either way, evil schmevil - I simply don't care.

Then we get the shouting from the gallery that we shouldn't play his Ascension path - because why exactly? Because of 7k undead?
Oh I can, and have, make all sorts of valid arguments that they are never going to be fine upstanding members of society if released - wouldn't know, never going to happen in my game. Even if I went the Unascended route I'd kill em anyway.
I don't know them, I don't care about them.
I know Astarion I care about him and this is what he wants - what he's wanted since he first heard about it - only argument that holds water for someone like me who role plays that the rest of the world can do whatever it wants so long as he's happy and safe, followed by the rest of my companions being the same wherever possible.

We apparently, now, shouldn't enjoy kissing him after ascension - erm why not? Exactly why I shouldn't I haven't seen a reasonable answer to anywhere. I'm not suddenly going to be scared of him, not would I accept being slapped or grabbed by the throat.

So he's now a part time partner abuser if we ask for a kiss, for some unknown reason that makes no sense and doesn't fit with the narrative or dialogue surrounding his little episodes.

I play single player not in a group of friends and my preferred route through the game causes no problem to anyone else at all.

My game doesn't tell anyone else what to think.

My game that other folks can't see at all, and unless they make exactly the same choices as me they never will.

It's all irrelevant
The only point that matters is that pre patch 6 and for nearly eight months, we had a perfect way to role play the ascension path as we wanted to.
Now we don't.
In an RPG.

Fixing Tav's expression during AA kisses is the first step in the right direction to fixing the kisses. AA kisses shouldn't be disappointing and making every character who kisses him in that manner look scared doesn't make sense. Plenty of differently role played Tavs might actually like it.

Then after fixing the expression... the kisses could be made better by sticking with how AA behaves before the brain is defeated. Whether it's real or not, AA puts on a show of being in love with Tav. The kisses should reflect this fact.

Arguing with AA or saying things he doesn't like will make him become abusive, but then he goes back to being his romantic self. AA is very romantic, far more romantic than spawn Astarion, but that could just be due to AA getting more romance content than spawn.

Why change how AA behaves this long after the game has been released? Keep his behavior consistent please. The only people who think the kisses are in line with his behavior, because he's an "evil Vampire Ascendant", are people who haven't really given his romance a shot and haven't tried to get into it, especially with Tav or Dark Urge who is just as evil as he is or whatever their in-character reason is for not caring about the red flags.

Sure some people want to still see the good in him and that's the beauty of AA. He is REALLY GOOD AT MANIPULATION and he can make you believe he is good. Why ruin such depth to his character? It is great how people can have different experiences with AA, so try not pigeon-hole everyone into the same experience, because that is boring. It's a video game and boring doesn't belong in it.

Story wise, this is the major issue.
It is INCONSISTENT.
Whether you want to believe AA loves or is only manipulating tav--Every. Single. Other. Interaction. with him is *silk glove* while they're together.
He would have everything to loose being so glove off at this point in the story. Motivation doesn't matter. It's his characterization. It's ooc for every other scene with him.

This is the biggest problem I have with the kisses. Why would Astarion start acting badly towards Tav before the tadpole is gone? He can act however he wants once it's gone, but it genuinely makes no sense for him to start treating Tav bad BEFORE it is removed. It's OOC and would be pretty stupid of him to do tbh. At best him and Tav break up and then that defeats the whole purpose of making Tav into a spawn who will be with him forever. At worst, a more violent Tav could hurt him, kill him, or kick him out of the group which would mean death without the artefact's protection. He literally has nothing to gain from acting like this while the tadpole is still in Tav.