Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion I just replayed Baldur's Gate 1, 2 and ToB and I have to say this. Why Larian? Why?

Why? Why did you do that?

Why on God's earth have you put in Sarevok and Viconia in the way that you did? What you all did to those character is a disgrace. Viconia is a turbo evil moron? Sarevok is "Bhaal's obsessed cultist?" What were you thinking? Who was this garbage meant for? New fans? Who couldn't care less about those characters and maybe somehow make them care by putting them into those small cameos? Or Old fans? Was it for people who played originals? Pleasing them by showing old characters in this new high quality way? Well... If it's the latter. You FAILED! Spectacularly. This is a monumental FAILURE. On BOTH sides. Let me explain why. Let's start with old and new for Sarevok:

First of for new players. Let's even FORGET they were in OG games and just talk about how they are portrayed in this game only... They are awful. Or rather... they are BORING. Sarevok looks intimidating and sounds cool. That's all there is to him. He is some psycho weirdo who has a thing for Bhaal and incest. Yay. What a riveting character that shows up for 5 minutes and the games acts like it's a big deal, like the build up of some lines being thrown here and there with his name is in any way making him feel as grand as you thought he would. Because it's not. He is a boring character who says some generic, villain things about Bhaal and then he is gone and dead. He is utterly forgettable. Not to mention the rest of the Tribunal who have no character whatsoever as well. Such a big part of the story and you made it feel so hollow and boring. That is impressive. He has something going on with Urge, but it's basically just hyping up others like you and Orin. You prop up those two with a character people barely know or care about and the most context to his power is his boss fight which depending on a player can be made into a joke.

And now for old. This is an insult. Because Sarevok in the original was a GREAT character. His backstory was layered. His plans were devious, his voice was great (in Polish version too which I play because that dub is honestly amazing), his presence was huge and despite being a Chaotic Evil character he was more than just a boring murder junkie. He was smart, his goal was about becoming a God. Not some servant of Bhaal. He was a character you wanted Gortash to be and then some (and he was not dumb enough to speak loudly about his secret plans in front of a whole crowd... and did not have a coronation in the Bridge). Not to mention his appearance in ToB which can be seen as weird at first, but in the end it builds up to a very good story where you can see him either go back to his old ways as he tries to again become what he once was or maybe become something more and fix his mistakes to become a better man. Both leading him to burying the one person he loved. All of that complexity, story and character, GONE. Not to mention that you IMPLIED he had a redemption and went back down. What are you doing!? Also you made someone who's one of primary motivations is seeing his mother killed by his adoptive father someone who does INCEST WITH HIS OWN DAUGHTER! This is disgusting. And before anyone tells me. "Oh, but it's realistic." What? Should I expect Astarion then to abuse everyone in the future no matter what happens? Would you not be crying about it if some other studio now will do that? Of course you would you little twat. The difference is that you care about Astarion and don't about Sarevok you little hypocrite! But if this cameo is for old players and it's spitting on people who CARE about Sarevok. Also for some reason you seem to think Bhaal resurrected him or at least you want people to think that with his diary... Again.

WHO IS THIS FOR!? Because it's clearly not for fans or newcomers. Is this for you? You wanted to put in Sarevok to make yourself feel oh so good about your characters he constantly hypes up that YOU made? If so... this is insulting.

And the same doesn't get better with damn Viconia.

The New (no, not Disco Elysium "The New"). She is again, a boring, forgettable, ugly and utterly devoid of any personality character who's biggest unique feature is being a Drow who worships Shar. What is there to even talk about? She abuses kids, mindwipes people, hurts Shar and all her lines are her being evil, evil, evil. This is boring. And very uninspired. She is just a plot device. An obstacle for Shart to overcome and that's it, which could... and with big letters COULD be fine if you did not do the same thing with Astarion, in much better way too mind you. One thing I have to give to you. Astarion is good. He is better at being Viconia than the Viconia you wanted Shart to be. But let's get back on track. There is nothing to talk about here beyond implied backstory between her and Minsc and Jaheira where she is told to be "Le evil" even more. Riveting. So... what is there for new players? Nothing? Less than nothing. Shart's words ring true that no one will remember her if this is targeted at new people...

But... Oh boy if this is targeted at fans of OG games. No. I wont even dive into her backstory as someone else here already did so I will keep it short. You took one of the most complex characters in the series who even in her default ending still ended up in a VASTLY different place than what she is at in this game. Not only are you contradicting yourself with some things like with Mirror of Loss having good memories of hers even though Jaheira and Minsc have nothing, but vile things to say about her, but you also have the AUDACITY to tell old players that no one will remember her... One of the most complex and beloved characters in the series and you say... nobody will remember her. Go to Hell. Genuinely. Whoever wrote that. This is... beyond insulting. This is trash.

And this even more reinforces to me that whoever wrote those things did it for themselves to feel better about their character. Hell. They probably didn't even PLAY the BG2 because any sane person who even played through them ONCE can tell those interpretations are completely off and stupid. Were you blindfolded? Did you just let those characters die or just never recruited them? Did you ever even played those games? Seriously. Who is this for? Who are those cameos for? And the fact that you made those two, some of the best characters from OG games into CAMEOS who have little to no explanation as to how they came to be like this, none that makes sense at least, is just a baffling decision that makes me truly believe you never cared for those characters Larian. Because everyone can see that when you care you can do great things, there is some very good things to say about this game even if the story can be flawed, but it is so clear when you don't care, you DO NOT care. So next time when you are given some IP that has some beloved characters attached to them, unless you care stay the F*CK away from them. Period. Don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Stay away. Because what you will do will do damage. That is all. That is my rant.

Play the OG games. They are great fun even if they are dated in many ways, you can get used to them. Dwarf fighter/cleric is a good build (and MY Gorion's Ward, not that Abdel thing, just install a mod for romances for all races if you want that, I did, no shame). And not like they do not have certain problems I laid out here, writing in ToB even with Ascension can have some of those flaws as well like never getting to know the Five as much, but damn were they dignified at least about what they were. Dignity that I do not feel in BG3 even if I love this game. Also hot take. Amelyssan should have lead the Tribunal. She is more powerful and she IS in fact the High Priestess. You could argue that she tried to betray Bhaal, but not like Larian cared for why Sarevok leads them or why he is in such weird state so why that would be weird at this point? Oh wait... right. Recognizability. I forgot... Okay. I'm done. I'm tired of this rant. Shame on you Larian.

P.S. Can someone PLAESE make a mod where those two turn to dopplegangers at their deaths? At least with Sarevok? And maybe use AI voices to change some dialogues with Minsc and Jaheira. Would be appreciated. Yes I know AI bad, but this is a just cause I say. Okay. I'm done now.

It could well be that more depth was planned for these characters but that was ultimately lost in the general thrown together nature of Act 3

I WOULD believe that if there was a hint of that depth in the game.

Even if more depth had been planned for those characters, their starting premise is really flawed. I don't think any amount of explanation would reconcile the characters we see in BG3 with what fans of the previous games would expect from them, especially in Sarevok's case.

Jaheira, Minsc, Viconia, Volo, Sarevok, Elminster are just too many recurring characters.

I would have expected even the storywriters to have more general knowledge of mathematical stochastics. You just have to think of the above names as coins in a common chain of events. Let's say heads = failure and tails = success for a return in BG 3, then it should be clear that never all coin tosses have the same result or show tails/success.

And also the reasoning behind this random chain is just too ridiculous:

3x humans over 100 years old and also still in their prime, two of which appear by space and time magic randomly at the same timeline and randomly in the same region. A few too many coincidences.

2x aged elves sounds a bit better, but why are Vicci and Sarevok return to BG, even though they were wanted by the Flaming Fist and should have been hunted down immediately? Sarevok in particular should have been killed after his crimes, when he should have died as an ordinary human without divinity anyway, like Imoen... And as the previous speakers have pointed out, why would he even willingly return to the place where he ultimately failed? Jaheira should have faced her own past after the Bhaalspawn saga in Thetir, especially after the loss of loved ones in BG and the surrounding areas.

Elminster making a brief appearance is the only thing that fits convincingly.

I agreethat there's probably a few too many returning characters, with Sarevok and Viconia in particular feeling very out of place and pointless in the game. However it's worth noting that various human characters who have returned are all alive based on canon established long before Larian's involvement, so it's not strictly Larian's fault for them being alive beyond what makes strict sense. Minsc was turned into a statue and then turned back into a human (or maybe this Minsc was a statue of the original minsc that got turned into a human, so he's not even the original Minsc to begin with, I can't remember). Jaheira's got a long life. I don't know the original games but she's got plenty of time to do lots of things. I don't think her being back is that strange, and frankly I think she's utilized perfectly in the story and plays exactly the role you'd expect of a character like her. I've said elsewhere that she's basically an old mentor figure but since she's introduced past the point in the story where you'd most rely on a mentor, she doesn't need to die to provide character development for our party. I also know that Volo is alive in D&D canon, not sure why. But I do think you could have lost Volo, Sarevok, Viconia and even Minsc without it doing any harm to the game's story.

Well Volo and Elminster are long established FR characters and not characters created for the video games. Before BG3's release I would have said that all the classic game characters should have just been left completely out of it - they all had epilogues at the end of Throne of Bhaal so best to just leave them be. As it's too late for that, either just have one - I would say Jaheira in this case - or go all in and do a proper sequel. Obviously it would be silly if every old companion got turned to stone to be revived a century later, but finding and rescuing would have been better as a quest attached to Aerie, who would still be a young elf, and given more connective tissue between the games. Viconia and Sarevok just being put in as memberberries essentially is disappointing. And I do think BG3 is very good, and Jaheira is very good overall, which is why it's a pity that there are parts where the ball was dropped.

As far as I remember, the MC could have a child with Aerie and in the epilogue with Viconia. Even though they were intended to be separate endings, they could have been cleverly linked together. Instead of Abdel Adrian, you could have had two descendants of him, one representing the good (maybe Aerie's child joining the Harpers) and SH as Vicci's child raised by the evil (Sharrans) to continue the Bhaals story in the second generation or at least use it as a starting point.

There's a lot of possibilities. Although if we're accepting Abdel as canon then he romanced Jaheira. Who died. So... yeah there are problems when you try to reconcile the canon from various sources. Maybe it would be best for there to be no canon romance as it does limit the ways those characters can be used in the future. I did wonder if at some point Shadowheart was considered to be Aerie's kid (like very early in her development). But then Aerie herself is still young for an elf, younger than Astarion and Halsin, so maybe she could have joined the Harpers in some capacity and become Jaheira's student (Harpers are supposed to be anti-slavery and she's definitely anti-slavery so working together at times would make sense) just as Shadowheart is Viccy's. But it would be cool meeting characters who are descendants of classic characters.

It's Larian's fault for including them in the first place and no source books or anything of the sort make some stuff that is THIS bad about those characters. Also some people say "Oh it is 100 years after OG games", but here is the thing. Viconia had to already have an established sect to be a leader of where she would abuse Shadowheart so she has been like it for LESS than 100 years. Maybe even just 50 which for Drows is barely anything. So that is ASININE still. And Sarevok. In one awful book that is not even considered canon he was a drug addict that got chosen by Bhaal I think again, but in this game they say he WAS redeemed and just fell again so they actively made the worst choice that was not mentioned ANYWHERE! And if they were sticking to the "Lore" in HUGE quotation marks then they would make lorroakan Edwin and THAT would be insulting as well if this is how he would end up... And if it IS him then it's just insulting. But as it is... okay. Although I do not like Aylin. I think she comes off as quite toxic and honestly unpleasant, but that's another topic for another day.

They also edited Viconia's age in the wiki to make her way older than she is.
In BG2 she tells you her permanence in the underdark lasted an age and a half: 150 years, then 72 years on the surface between the fall of house DeVir and the events of BG1, then 124 years till present day Forgotten Realms. Last time i checked, that adds up to roughly 346, not more than 600(when Drow start aging).

And yep, agree, both Sarevok and Viconia have been heavily slaughtered to prop up Larian's original characters.

Also... i will add something(can't remember if SerTomato's great thread mentioned this or not): Viconia loved her brother so much, she protected him from all the worst abuses Drow males are subjected to... it doesn't make sense that she suddenly betrays that love just to obey Shar, cause she already forsook Lolth for "less" when she didn't want to kill a child.

Not a great move and definitely earned rightful flak, especially when Shadowheart(really guys? the name is cringe, especially for a Sharran) literally screams "No one will ever remeber your face".
They could have been named differently, within the same roles and Larian would literally benefit from that as there wouldn't be the criticism about how awfully they have been handled... now the characters themselves are pretty dumb and uninteresting evil for evil sake and lapdog for lapdog sake, but at least it wouldn't be character assassination of two of the best characters from BG saga.

Totally agree with the OP. In general, Larian's understanding of "evil", "evil characters", and "evil walkthroughs" is at a critically low level. Viconia was my friend in BG2, she was a wonderful, interesting, intelligent and ironic companion. "No one will remember her?" Damn, I immediately remembered what she was like, even though it's been a few years, I guess if you replay it now the contrast would be even more outstanding. It feels like they took a school kid, gave him a summary of the character's backstory, and then asked them to write a script for the game. Sarevok to the same place. You could write evil characters this way, save on salaries, and the result would be the same.

BG2 had a story, logic, balance. You could play in different ways, everywhere had its own interesting game experience. In BG3, however, it feels like the "evil options" are made just to show players how you should dislike it, how bad you are for choosing it, and blah, blah, blah. In a perfect world, Viconia as an extra companion should have been an alternative to Minsc and Jaheira, well, and in a completely perfect world, be like herself as well. But Larian is all about "heroic slippers".

And they couldn't even get Kevin Michael Richardson on board to reprise his role as Sarevok.

Though, given how butchered he ended up being in the game, that might be for the better. He's just there as a bossfight, and that's the extent of his role. Are you saying that nobody in a city with a powerful military force / adventurer presence has ventured down into the undersewers in 100+ years and cleaned the Bhaalist mess up, especially after Sarevok has already done a ton of damage once?

Same with Viconia and the Sharrans. You'd think there'd be paladins on the hunt for a sect of a generally shunned goddess in a city which works to maintain law and order (unlike somewhere like Westgate which is an actual cultural and racial and religious stew), but I guess that would imply that there's clearly defined "good" and "evil" in Toril, and we can't have that nowadays, apparently.

What's weird is I feel BG3 presents itself from the outset as being more morally flexible (the lack of character alignments and such), but is actually quite simplistic in its morality and even more "black and white" than the OG games. Because Sarevok and Viconia, while having evil alignments, are nuanced characters whether you redeem them or not. In BG3, they are reduced to cartoon villain versions of themselves. BG3's handling of its evil paths also reflects this (for example, Larian doubling down on making it super clear that ascending Astarion is the "wrong" decision instead of merely an evil decision).

Anyway, Sarevok and Viconia's treatment is still my biggest issue with BG3 as a whole. It's just not cool to take characters people love and make them as repulsive as possible. My theory is still that whoever put the characters in this game (whether Larian or WotC) did not play BG1/BG2 or did not play with these characters. Or pay attention to the vast amount of free information on the internet about these characters. I could probably find upwards of 80% of their dialogue online if I looked.

Furthermore, there are weird things said about BG2 that just don't make any sense if you've actually played the game. Like Jaheira tells Gale that Irenicus did a blood transfusion to steal Charname's power, which is a bafflingly inaccurate summary of a major plot point of BG2. I know BG3 takes place over a century after BG2, but IMO it should not take that much effort to make callbacks to BG1/BG2 consistent and accurate. BG3 is a good game, but it's a horrible sequel (to my favorite game ever, no less), and that's why it disappointed me.

That Sarevok is in the BG city in the first place is barely explainable, since in the most widespread ending for ToB he leaves for Kara-Tur to bury Tamoko and isn't heard from since. Not to mention that, since he was stripped of his Bhaalspawn powers upon being resurrected, it makes even less sense for him to still be following Bhaal (which he doesn't even in the non-redeemed path for him in that expansion) or be over a century old by the time of BG3 (he was a calculating schemer and a deadly warrior, but not a mage or a druid who have the means to slow down aging). The whole incest scenario just seems like wanting to make him as unlikeable as possible on whoever wrote him's part.

Whereas Viconia has been reduced to a leader of a college clique with a midlife crisis and the wrinkles to come with one (she was still young by elvish standards in the originals, and elves live for ~800 years in the setting, with visible aging only beginning at around 600+, so her looking like she's in her forties is completely wrong). Sharrans as a whole are rather difficult to take seriously, being, again, less of a sect and more of a campus sorority, bullying and gratuitous edginess included.

Elves in general just don't look lore accurate in this game, IMO. (There was even a very long thread on this very topic during early access). Iirc, as drow get older, their hair turns yellow-ish and (maybe, like high elves?) they get partial cataracts over their eyes. They don't ever get wrinkly because they just don't age the same way that humans do. Halsin also looks more weathered than an elf should (even though I see why people might appreciate that, it isn't lore accurate). So yeah, there is definitely no reason for Viconia to look as "aged" as she does regardless of whether she's 600 or 300.

There's absolute Lore butchery left and right.
Quasi-Gods are canonically unable to grant powers to their followers(and the Dead Three being back in a weakened status would NOT weaken themselves by further splitting their essence), Jergal being completely out of character(He's the scrivener of Kelemvor but he's there to also make sure Kelemvor doesn't act too zealous or too benevolent while doing his job... he's also known as Lord of the End of Everything, and his dogmas literally say "Never prolong a life unless it furthers the end times", yet he brings back to life adventurers for money), The gods being treated as if this were Eora;

When durge(really bad fanfiction) dies, instead of his/her entire being returning to Bhaal, just some blood seeps out and it shouldn't be happening in the first place cause of Quasi-Gods being unable to grant powers/essence to their followers in the damn first place; Furthermore, Jergal would not bring durge back... it goes against what he stands for as a God and even as a simple scrivener.

Viconia is 346 in current day FR, but they cheekily edited the wiki to make her appear 600 yo(and as you point out, even after 600s, Drow do not age that rapidly); Jaheira should already have Timeless Body as she was way into epic levels, Timeless Body isn't a ritual but Nature granting incredible longevity to Druids through the primal energy they channel through them.

Jaheira says Irenicus fucking used a blood transfusion to steal Gorion's Ward's powers!

Hell even in the prologue, Illithids are so dumb they planeshift into Avernus(It's common knowledge Devils strictly enforce border laws onto planeshifting people who want to be sneaky) being caught into a crossfire, then act as if they lack their mastery of psionics and conveniently don't know how to differentiate between thralls and adventurers!

I wonder what was wrong with the option "Death of DU - end game and restart", as it was with Bhaal's son in BG2? The other companions can be resurrected - the DU can't, it's perfectly logical and consistent with Lore. Unless the need for the idea of "redemption", which is particularly ridiculous, since Bhaal in this case completely takes his own - and blood, and power, and soul. But Jergal somehow manages to trump Bhaal, and bring the "redeemed" back to the world of the living.


Yeah, but the game instead has some ritual that Jaheira never used, which does nothing but create an excuse to blah blah blah about "how bad it is to be immortal". Then it sits in your inventory without meaning or use, like unfinished content that will probably never be finished. Well, and delivers separate lulz when Karlach after the death of Gortash screams about how she wants to live, and asks "do I have a magic wand in my backpack". Well kinda there is, and kinda doesn't work... It would have made a lot more sense to give Jahaira a Timeless Body than to introduce this pointless something into the game. I'm even glad I disliked the local Jaheira so much that I never took her with me, except for doing her quest and the Minsc quest, and didn't hear that blood transfusion line from her.

My personal opinion is the following: they didn't want their "Original" characters(Halsin, Astarion and Shadowheart are different mixes of Viconia and Sebille wannabes) to be outshined or percieved as "weak", so, instead of making this a torch passing ceremony, they changed lore and events accordingly so that it comes as the torchbearers being beaten to a pulp and the torches taken by the new ones... the old evil characters are used as punching bags and purposefully character assassinated to elevate their originals and make people who don't know them, either hate them or be indifferent. It's a really disheartening treatment, and even tho i don't like when this sort of thing is done, it kinda does make me wish they get treated with their own medicine in case a next "BG" comes out, cause maybe at that point they might understand what other people meant(I have managed to convince two of my friends to understand what i mean and admit those characters aren't even the same... but i also have failed with others cause no matter how much context i provide, they just don't care). I called Durge fanfiction cause... there can't be Bhaalspawn around since Bhaal is not a god anymore, and giving his own powers to others(weakening himself) is not just out of character for how crafty Bhaal actually was, it is also extremely dumb cause it contradicts quasi-god lore.


I get the blah blah immortality "bad", as it can be a curse... it'd be interesting if Jaheira had that problem cause of Khalid's death being the first step towards aging really slowly and losing yet another partner during those 124 years... but that's the problem, she doesn't experience it in the first place.

Also, immortality becomes a blessing if those you love share it with you, cause you can express that love for the rest of eternity.

It is filled with " 'member-berries" .

I mean even the off-hand comment about how the Ironhand Gnomes sided with those crazy cutlists over a hundred years ago.

While I enjoyed seeing Minsc, Boo, and Jaheara I hated that they were kind of shoe horned in. I mean Jaheara is a half-elf who would be in 1492DR over 150 years old! And Minsc... well Minsc used the age old turn into magic stone and break when needed trick. Its the same trope that hit Volo.