Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Please don’t forget about vampire spawn Tav…

One of the places the game drops the ball the hardest on reactivity is in regards to the decision of allowing Astarion to turn Tav into a vampire spawn. We’re nearing Patch 7 and I’m pleading with Larian to improve just a few tiny things for immersions sake so the route doesn’t look like it was hastily thrown together last minute. Here’s the things that really stand out:

• Happy buff still refers to Astarion in the tooltip.
• Tav can still use mirrors just fine without any explanation (at least use a generic “It’s empty” or narrator comment…please).
• Tav has no indication they feel any vampiric hunger (at least a stray narrator comment saying we feel that would be greatly appreciated…)
• Fangs or bite marks. I get there might be an engine limitation, but this one still really stands out.
• Many NPCs have no reaction, but Araj specifically should acknowledge Tav is a vampire now. Tolerable if the rest of the suggestions were covered.

It just feels a bit frustrating that so much effort is put into edge cases, but then no consideration here. Especially when some of these are really low hanging fruits. You have the flag in the dialogue already so I know is doable.

It is such a big turning point for the player character if you go that way in the story, but like you say it has almost no reactions or implications from any of the close companions (except Astarion of course and Karlach for some strange reason), nothing from the narrator after the turning, not even a change in the appearance of my character even though Tav has become undead.

I agree with these, and my addition would be to have Tav wanting blood, wanting violence, reacting to smell of blood.

And the tooltip really needs to be changed, it was the first implication for me that the story had been rushed or forgotten about.

One thing I found really good is that they did think about the undead miazma when you do the quest for Oscar/the mummy guy. Astarion and Tav is standing straight, not bothered by the undead miazma in the tomb while the other companions is wheezing. It was the ONLY time I got reminded Tav is undead now. And I really liked that.

Overall, there is very little information about vampirism in the game. About “dark desires” and how they affect spawns.
Not much about the “first living vampire” concept either.

This drop of blood of the Ascended Astarion thing, I assume Tav is subject to all the perks of the ritual.
That is:
reflections,
sunlight,
lack of hunger,
the pleasures of mortals.

Considering Tav doesn't burn in the sun after the tadpole disappears.
That's how I interpret it at this point.

Though it should still be stipulated. Especially the taste of blood, since Tav gets vampirism after all.
I thought Gale, who we could talk to about the changes and lack thereof, would be interested.
I'm guessing this is an “Upper City Content” problem that extends to many aspects.

But honestly, I don't think Larian will expand and flesh out the story much.
Especially the more change the more inconsistencies, flaws, and plot holes happen in the game, unfortunately

In my opinion everything is explained by a couple of phrases that Astarion says: "You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different". It fits perfectly with the explanation of why PC has not changed.
There is also a phrase that explains why the PC does not feel hunger, why it is not afraid of the sun, etc. Well, firstly, it is a tadpole. And secondly, Astarion is an ascended vampire, and he creates an unusual spawn: "You have supped of my blood. It will be no trouble to extend a fragment of my protection to you". That's all.
And the reaction from the NPCs and party members is not enough. I would like to hear them all, what they think. And correct the description of the ability, and then it will be beautiful in general.

The eyesore of a tooltip on the Bite ability that refer to Tav as Astarion needs to be changed, it's unrelated to any story or roleplay and probably an easy fix for Larian. It would help immersion.

In regards to the no-change Tav, I still feel it's a little bit uninspired to have Tav stay exactly the same after being bit and turned by the new ascended vampire lord. Personally I would have liked to see some kind of consequence. Like when not being able to turn away from killing after accepting Bhaal. I do however think it is Larians intention to leave it up to player imagination. Since Astarion also says we will have to wait and see what parts of vampireism will come forth in Tav.

Also the bite marks. This is something I was missing instantly in my noob playthrough. I even studied my character in the Magic Mirror to see if Tav had any fang marks. In the Night of the turning, if you choose the hurt option and have the right hairstyle, you can clearly see the painfully deep marks on Tavs neck after Astarion bites them.
I would be very happy to see Larian add this, like many of us I think.. If not, I hope a modder will pick it up. Maybe add it as a scar option at the very least so we can put it on ourselves.

I explain the “Astarion is happy” buff on Tav as meaning that Astarion cares so much about his consort that he's happy that she ate well today. And since he had a good meal himself, it follows that he is now doubly happy. Well, or like the fact that Tav feels so good about Astarion being happy being an Ascended Vampire that it makes her feel invigorated and increases her effectiveness through staying positive. This is actually a flaw, of course, and could easily be fixed by simply changing the text description of the buff. At least just to the “Happiness” variant, if there's a problem with including the player's name in the description of that buff.

The lack of reaction from Araj does look unrealistic. It feels like the developers were too lazy to do an extra scene for the sake of it. Logically, Oblodra should offer Tav to bite her in exchange for the potion. And then there should be Astarion's reaction to that, additional lines, and if they agree, also a cutscene where Tav vomits and Astarion yells at them for not listening to him, or sympathizes, or prevents them from producing the bite - either way it would be a whole scene. If Oblodra had mentioned with one line that Tav was now a vampire and nothing else, that would have been weird too, considering how she wanted to be bitten by a vampire. Oh, and you can bite Oblodra in combat all you want - no special effect, you get the usual aforementioned “happy buff”. For the sake of realism, at least here it could be possible to put Tav in a state of nausea or poisoning. Also, Raphael's reaction to Tav turning into a vampire could be interesting. He's clearly capable of determining that they're a vampire, he knows Astarion's history, and he'd certainly have some mocking words to say about it, considering how angry he was at us after kidnapping the Orphic Hammer. The lack of response from the companions (other than Karlach) is also depressing.

In addition to invulnerability to undead miasma, Astarion and Tav also have invulnerability to infection on the plague ship (Lustrous Lass, the ship can be accessed via the Counting House or the Water Queen's House, and a sign on the latter's side indicates that it's under quarantine for said plague). The rest of the companions may be infected.

You have to go down a specific dialogue path to even get these lines, and more importantly, why is Astarion the one telling our character what they should expect?

Everywhere else, the narrator is the one who generally informs us on how our character is supposed to feel. Astarion tells us he’ll miss Tav’s warm skin, but the narrator never mentions feeling cold the next day, nor is there a dialogue option to comment on it. Even if Tav is really intended to be immune by the effects of vampirism, the narrator should at least offer a cheeky comment the first time you interact with a mirror, like “It seems you still have your reflection!” or on the dock we should at least get a, “The sun feels hot but not particularly painful, it seems Astarion’s blessing is protecting you…for now.”

Or if Tav is supposed to be a vampire a simple “You rise painfully the next morning, cold and exhausted with your heart eerily still. As Astarion gently helps you to your feet and leads you back to camp, all you can focus on is the gnawing hunger ravaging you. Blood…rich…sweet…red…You’ll need to feed soon. Perhaps your companions might be able to offer some sustenance.”

I am against these two requests, I see it the same way as illeaillas-san and LiryFire: Astarion is a living Vampire and gives his blood to Tav, so also Tav doesn't feel the ache of hunger and he has the same living Vampire's advantages as Astarion - like seeing his own reflection, walking in the sun etc.


I agree with illeaillas-san and your statement isn't true, everyone who clicks on Astarion the next day will hear this line. He always says this sentence, no matter what answer you give him. I think, the majority of people won't miss it. These are the phrases everyone gets: "Things will be a touch different for you than they were for me when I was a spawn. I’m imbibed with unfathomable new talents. I am fairly certain I can extend Mephistopehles blessings unto you." and "You need not fear anything. You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve."

Maybe you could say that it's still a bit ambiguous, some people role-play like this and others like that (for example if you don't talk with Astarion the next day or roleplay, that Astarion would lie to you, etc.). I would advise Larian not to add a narrator's comment later (one year after release), because it would either make one or the other unhappy. There would also have to be further consequences. If the narrator were to say: Tav feels a painful hunger, but Astarion tells him that Mephistopheles has given him blessings and that not much has changed, that would be very inconsistent. Then Astarion's statement would have to be changed or they would have to add another scene where you could ask Astarion about it, etc. pp....



For me this would be inconsistent to the dialogue with Astarion right after, as I wrote above (if Larian wants Tav to feel hunger, than this Dialogue needs to be changed as well and we need to get the option to talk about it with Astarion, when he is telling us, "but you won't be different". I could imagine Larian didn't give a narrator comment for the sake of ambiguity, and did this on purpose, so the players have more possibilities to roleplay the way they want.

It would have been desirable that there were some more reactions by others to Tav being a vampire or Astarion's spawn. But I don't think Larian will change anything because they already said there won't be any new content. (In general I think a lot of things could have been more fleshed out in act 3)

I personally wouldn't want them to add any lines about Tav/Durge having vampiric hunger.
Though I don't think this has been confirmed, there are hints that Astarion performs the vampire bride ritual on your character rather than turning you into a regular spawn. For those who prefer it that way, or prefer to roleplay it like that, I am glad that it's kept ambiguous.
There has never been a vampire like Astarion, the Ascendant. But they don't elaborate that much about what he becomes. Who's to say what his spawn (or vampire bride) would be like? Since he is a 'living' vampire who can walk in the sun, see his reflection, and no longer feels the hunger, it is fair to assume his blood would give you those benefits as well. My character can still enjoy food and drink and everything else like she did before.
Although, getting fangs would have been nice (to complement our new Bite ability)! Along with appropriate reactions from your other party members. Karlach is the only one who I've seen react to it.

Astarion and Tav being vampires is by now just fanfiction anyway as Larian completely ignored what it means to be a vampire and the condition has 0 effects.

I like these suggestions. I think what OP and myself are missing are some rpg choice validation. I want to be reminded of the choice made. Consequence, but not punishment (important distinction) for my actions in the game.

Adding the bite scar on Tavs neck would be a consequence that do not impact story. Astarion did bite Tav, hard and long, a scar is surely in order.



Maybe for the hunger part it would be inconsistent, but Tavs heart has stopped beating we can not deny that. I can only imagine it would feel very wierd. Having the narrator comment on this would be interesting, imo.

Maybe the narrator would say something like: "You awake, clammy and cold. It feels like you can not draw air. As you sit in your bed you wonder if the night before was real or a dream. You can taste the air around you, hear the slow breath of your companions, their beating hearts. So unlike your own you realize, now silent as a stone."



It is part of the problem yeah. They also made a new vampire type that has 0 rules. But leaving it open is perhaps not such a bad idea, since people already have their own roleplay in the game.

I was surprised to see Astarion (and Tav after the bite) is not referred to as undead on the character sheet, though they are. It would have made an interesting healing dilemma since some spells do not heal undead.

Larian hasn't really paid much attention to vampirism since the beginning.
Astarion in EA says this phrase "sheep are easily spooked". It may seem figurative, but it's not quite so. Astarion once says "food animals don't have to kill you, chickens, oxen and people". Lord Astarion doesn't hide this "angle" of vampirism and uses cattle for people from the city.
But we don't have this conversation about what orders of vampirism means, no about dark desires and whether they affect the spawn in the context of cruelty and perception of the world.

The lack of what you've listened was intentional, given Astarion addresses it in dialogue directly.
"Things will be much different for you than when I was a spawn. You will be stronger, sharper, swifter, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve."

This dialogue is given to all characters who speak to him post bite night. Tav must ask him what happened as they don't remember. A stark contrast to his memory of turning under Cazador.

He also discusses extending his blessings to a turned Tav. And Tav is standing in the sun without burning on the docks at the end. Given we don't know what kind of spawn an Ascendant can make, it seems Larian is being creative with how vampirism will affect Tav.

I think that's really fun and cool and original. I would like it to stay that way. I hope Larian doesn't change anything for vampire reactivity with Tav. Keep it creative! It's clearly meant to be different. Larian did a good job with it!

Tav was definitely given blood. It would make no sense for Astarion to elaborate on that detail if he didn't. Tav is under no obligation to demand true vampirism in dialogue with him.
And Tav doesn't burn in the sun which is an effect of the blood. How permanent or temporary was not specified. Astarion is a tricky character in this regard, he's a rogue and a charlatan. He doesn't want to be alone. He chooses an immoral way to get it.

Overall I thought Tav might be a true vampire since Astarion tells Tav about the rule of blood.

Astarion: In theory, the next step is to drink their blood. Once you've done that, you're free and a true vampire.
Player: So they bite you, you bite them?
Astarion: Yes and no. The problem is once you're a vampire spawn, they completely control you. They have to allow you to bite them.

So it seems that the Vampire Lord himself has to do a willful act, and this bite by spwan will be "special".
But no.

Player: You'd have to drink Cazador's blood to be free?
Astarion: Free and a true vampire, capable of creating my own coven? Yes.

Astarion says he'll be a True Vampire. Clearly Cazador wouldn't make the willful permission to "special bite". So the blood just works the way it is.

Astarion: Although I'd settle for just killing the bastard. I wouldn't be a 'true' vampire, but I'd be free of him.

Why Spawn Astarion doesn't drink Cazador's blood to become more powerful than the spawn, the chances of curing vampirism are very low anyway.
And why the blood rule doesn't do true vampirism when Astarion is literally splattered with it is a mystery.
He doesn't even recall this possibility.

So in my opinion it's not just Tav's vampirism that is overlooked.

Tav's can be explained by the effects of a new kind of “living” vampirism.

Other details of vampirism and Tav.

Spawn Tav: Will you still drink my blood?
Astarion: Of course I will, and you'll drink mine. I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me.

To talk more about this we can't.

Speaking of transformation:

Astarion: I remember how it hurt when I turned to a vampire. My body writhed and warped while I was utterly helpless, the grip of death owned my heart as it beat its last.

Tav:
Player: What exactly happened?
Astarion: You were drained dry, and at the height of your delirium, I granted you one drop of my own blood.

That's why the bride theory is very superior, which could be adapted.
There's an opportunity to nicely close plot holes and explain the homebrew of what's going on with Tav.

Firstly there's a reference to Kin Nectar with a well written lore. When vampires drink each other.

Second.
Astarion describes his turning as painful. Tav does not remember(?) their turning.
Astarion mentions delirium. I take it Tav's total oblivion.
The transformation of the bride is described as complete euphoria. Which however can lead to madness and death if the Vampire Lord is mistaken.

Third

However, the amount of blood is different, not a drop, there must be a wound.
Yet in the context that the process of creating a bride on carries damage to the vampire, "even a small amount of blood" weakens him. The amount of blood required is not specified.

In BG3, as you can see, the "blood rule" is mentioned but in no way works further.
In that book, there is no such "blood rule" for the spawn, there they are fledglings, but they are at once vampires who get used to the world of vampires and are emotionally connected in a magical sense too. "Inborn" propensity to bow to the will of their creator. However, this passes with time.
It's kind of a bond.
The bond with the bride is more intense, the two literally feel each other. The bride doesn't have the " inborn" thing of regular fledglings.

Similar thing:
To create a fledgling you don't need blood
To create a bride you need blood

According to BG3 rules, there should have been no blood at all. Blood works for true vampirism and sapwn-turn supposed to hurt.

Van Richten's Guide to Vampires - Relations between Vampires
Plus everything is explained in detail and interessting.

There's only one book on vampirism in Bg3: "pale, tired, red eyes - don't let in the house"

For me, because it is so ambiguous in game, figuring out my own roleplay have also been ambiguous. Tav is sometimes bride, sometimes spawn in my mind when I play.. even still today I feel that way. She was most definitive a spawn for me first playthrough, a willing and happy one I'll add. But after getting on this forum (thanks to the problems with the romance scenes) and meeting all of you DnD lore and vampire lore specialists, especially LiryFire and DarkAngelBecons, I'm leaning more bride. Not only from the lore presented by them, but also how it fits with the turning scene specifically.

Even without knowing the lore, it feels like a ritual. Like a diabolical wedding, where the first bite mark the start.

I would have liked Larian to lean more into the bride theory and having the consequence/downside being a new obsession with blood. But that is of course biased to how I roleplay the romance.


I remember reading that one..

Then this is something that should be clarified by the narrator like any other change that happens to our character. At the very least, the game implies Tav is cold to the touch. Surely that has to feel different than before. We also know they crave blood now as they feel happy after consuming it. Surely that's a craving worth remarking on at the very least?

Turning into a mindflayer isn't left to nearly so much ambiguity. The narrator spends significant amounts of time describing the character's new hunger, the struggle to keep their identity, etc.

At the very least, I would expect the narrator to say we don't feel different if we aren't supposed to feel different.

Why though?

It's a roleplay game. Not nailing down every detail to allow for different perspectives and roleplay is how they generally work. If you're wanting to imagine your Tav in a more typical spawn/master dynamic you can. If you want something more with Easter eggs to OG lore, you get that too. It provides a really great roleplay experience for a very wide audience.

It's not really equitable to mind flayer lore delivered by the narrator, as we all know exactly what a mind flayer is. We do not know exactly what an ascended vampire is. Nor what kind of spawn they will create. It's left for imagination. It's something brand new while mind flayers and the like are not.

I much prefer Larian letting the player decide what their relationship with Vampire Lord Astarion will look like and what exactly he's made them.

Because it’s literally a narrative driven roleplaying game and not a sandbox of props to make my own story with! I’m literally trying to figure out how to roleplay how my character would feel about this situation, but I can’t because I don’t know what I’m working with! The game just never tells me how my character is physically feeling after this major transformation they just went through! Notice when we talk to Astarion after the first bite night we can say we feel woozy? Where is that option?

When I was playing my first Durge, the game made it clear my lack of killing was making my character feel twitchy and ill. As a result, I ROLEPLAYED a constant internal battle my character was facing with wanting to engage in cruelty because it felt so good, even though they knew it was wrong. This led me as a player to go along with way more evil shit than I wanted to, including killing a cat, because the character I was playing was was slowly being broken down by these physical symptoms.

There is no precedent for the Dark Urge in DnD, just like there is no precedent for a netherese tadpole infection. And yet, Larian takes the time to make it clear to us how these things physically manifest because they’re establishing a narrative setting. How we choose to react to those things is ROLEPLAY.

And sorry, when the game gives me a tooltip for a buff that literally refers to a different character, my reaction is gonna be, “Larian is clearly not finished with this route”, not “This is intentionally left vague so I can make up my own story”. Likewise, “You won’t be different” just sounds like the writers trying to come up with a handwavy excuse to cover why proper dev effort wasn’t put into Tav being a vampire.

In my opinion, we don't discuss Astarion's vampirism much, and this by a love interest is quite a thing.
The Tav spawn has a line "Don't you dare speak like that, about my Lord Astarion" for Karlach, which incidentally may hint at this strong emotional bond that Minthara is talking about.

Speaking of Tav Spawn.
The point is, considering Astarion doesn't even stipulate the possibility of becoming a True Vampire in Act 3, when in Act 1 it was one of his goals.
But when it comes to Tav in Act 3 - all the rules and descriptions from DnD5 will be carried by a Tav spawn that has already swallowed a drop of blood from an ascended living vampire... Which literally breaks those rules on many levels.
Tav Spawn DnD 5 will look very inconsistent and intrusive because of this.

Also Astarion literally craved eternal life (eternal beauty I take it), we hardly discuss that either. Although he does say the phrase "I am a vampire - forever young". He's also clearly fascinated by the power a vampire Lord can wield in Act 1 and Act 2. It would be interesting to explore further whether he would prefer mortality or immortality. Get Astarion's recommendation on this, especially if Tav has a romance with him.
As it says in the artbook that has been sold since release including in physical form. I wonder those who bought it know that the character is, according to the community, rewritten and it's an EA concept.

I do worry about new inconsistencies and "other people's ideas" since Astarion and his whole quest is a team effort. That goes for Tav's vampirism, too.

If anything is ever added I just hope that Evil will not be a punishment, "isolation" - It just means isolation from players who like to play evil. We literally only have one character without a quest for the pure Evil path, and that's Minthara.
Path with its own pros and cons, fun to play, with its own point.

Yeah imo the reason vampire Tav (and astarion) do get intentionally forgotten are
1. The implementation of being a vampire is so inconsistent and lacking Larian does not want to draw attention to it.
2. Next to Shadowheart Astarion has become one of the poster childs for the shipping fandom and Larian does not want to anger them by making Astarion and Tav pairings less desireable by introducing more monsterous/vampire behaviour.