Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Feedback and suggestions, no, really, that's it

Obviously, spoilers ahead. A lot of them.
Disclaimer: I may just not know about certain niche things in Baldur’s Gate III, because, well it’s impossible to know everything. I also have basically zero experience in DnD outside BG3, so I may not see obvious things, or make rather stupid mistakes. Bear with me.
So, let’s talk about evil paths. How original, I know. As far as I know, there are three types of evil in DnD lore: lawful evil, neutral evil, chaotic evil. To simplify things, let’s say that the ‘avatar’ of LE in this game is Raphael, or, perhaps, Gortash, and the avatar of CE is Orin, or Durge, or Bhaal himself, doesn’t really matter. We’ll get to NE in a bit, don’t worry.
First, let’s cover CE. Chaotic evil alignment means doing evil things just for fun. Not personal gain, not power, not anything logical, just fun. Watch the world burn, that kind of stuff. And BG3 does a great job at doing that. Durge is all about that, and even if you aren’t Bhaal’s favorite child, you can still roleplay as a deeply messed up deranged maniac with minimal effort. Next to no problems here.

Moving on to LE, in my humble understanding lawful evil alignment means doing evil things in certain bounds, which can be dogmas of an evil god, strict personal code, or internal laws of some organization. And BG3 simply doesn’t have that. There just isn’t an evil organization which you can join. Giving the Crown of Karsus to Raphael is probably LE, but that’s a very rare example. Taking Gortash’s deal could be what we’re looking for, if he didn’t get smited by the Brain. You could say that letting Lae’zel stay loyal to Vlaakith or letting Shadowheart become a Dark Justiciar is rather LE, and you would be partially correct, so we’ll talk about that later. For now, let’s just say that LE playthrough in BG3 is possible only with very severe mental gymnastics.


Finally, we’ve come to NE. Neutral evil alignment means doing whatever benefits you the most. No rules, no boundaries, but also no unnecessary killing, as people are usually more useful alive than dead. And because this alignment is pretty simple, let’s quickly analyze the various choices we are presented with in this game from the perspective of a NE character.

Let’s say our imaginary Tav is very similar to Minthara, who is probably the most NE character in the game, - cunning, wise, insidious, ruthless, calculating, serves no god and no master, will stop at nothing to achieve their goals.

Okay, the first major choice our Tav has to make is whether to protect or to raid the grove. By protecting the grove Tav gains: payment from Tieflings and druids, gratitude from both of them, which isn’t much, but it can theoretically be useful, illithid parasites, which are useful, whatever loot goblins have, which should be something significant, since they are greedy, and a possible cure from Halsin. By raiding the grove our Tav gains: gratitude from Minthara and possibly more information on the tadpoles and the Absolute, whatever loot goblins and tieflings had, which isn’t much, and that’s about it. Our Tav isn’t dumb enough to think a tadpoled goblin healer would know how to cure a tadpole, so that’s out of the question.
It is clear that protecting the grove outweighs raiding it, so our Tav does just that.

Now, moving on to Act II, Tav has to choose between letting Shadowheart kill Nightsong and saving her. Let’s say Tav is Shadowheart’s friend, but because Tav is pretty selfish, they don’t care about how this will impact Shadowheart. Tav is smart, so they know that Shar isn’t exactly someone you want to help. Tav also knows a cleric of Selune is protecting the Last Light, so killing Selune’s daughter wouldn’t be a good idea either. So here, Tav once again does the right thing and convinces Shadowheart to spare the Nightsong.

I understand that I’m overlooking a lot of minor choices in various quests, where there are some NE options, but they usually don’t matter that much in the long run. In the important decisions our selfish, power hungry, evil Tav has been acting exactly the same as some righteous paladin knight in shining armor. Who could have guessed being good could be so rewarding!

“But wait, Hes”, I hear you say, “you’re forgetting the ending! There’s an option to enslave the Elder Brain and conquer the world, is that not what you’re looking for?” Thank you for reminding me, dear reader, I almost forgot to talk about that ending. In my opinion, it is utterly inconsistent and makes no sense. Let’s say our Tav sided with the Emperor, for simplicity, never became illithid but still defeated all of their adversaries and made it to the Brain itself. The Emperor is using the stones to dominate the Brain, and it begs for its life and offers Tav to wield it. So Tav stabs that lying mindflayer to death, ceases the stones, uses them on the Brain and controls it. But … how? How can Tav enslave the Brain if an illithid has to do it? Is that not the point? Okay, maybe Tav just used the stones for giggles and didn’t actually control the Brain, just made some kind of a deal with it. Well making a deal with a being who you can’t even conceive is already idiotic, but you know what’s even funnier? Tav is still tadpoled. Tav is a toaster which tries to control Skynet. The very moment Tav stabs the Emperor his aura of protection disappears and the Brain gets control of Tav and makes them die of cringe. This ending is just beyond stupid. And if somehow, breaking all the rules that the game established before, Tav actually does all that successfully, they just become a raidboss for the entire damn world. There’s always a bigger fish, you know.

Okay, now I think I’ve convinced you that evil paths in this game only suit Durge and the likes of him. But before we move on to what I’m actually suggesting, we have to cover companion storylines. For them we’re going to ignore DnD alignment stuff, and use one of the most simple ideas of creating evil routes: if you continuously do evil things, you gain power and you look cool, but you lose allies, friends and a part of yourself. And occasionally BG3 tries to do that.

So, let’s have a look at companion storylines from this perspective. Jaheira and Minsc are Act III exclusive, they barely have a storyline at all. Halsin only has the quest to lift the Curse, he doesn’t matter for us here. Karlach can’t be evil, that’s like light being dark. Wyll actually has a somewhat evil ending where becomes Duke and isn’t free of Mizora, but considering his ignorant father managed to overlook the entire plot of the Chosen and got himself captured, I would say that’s actually the best ending, maybe not for Wyll, but definitely for Baldur’s Gate. Lae’zel’s storyline is pretty good, but it just doesn’t have good/evil dichotomy, it has a good ending and a bad ending specifically, so we won’t discuss it here.

Now, Gale’s storyline is almost what we’re looking for. He either lets go of his ambition and becomes a somewhat better person, or ascends to godhood, losing a part of himself in the process. The problem here is that his ascension isn’t evil, well, at least we don’t get to see any evil about it. Gale doesn’t sacrifice anyone to become a god, doesn’t do any evil, it’s just a personal choice he makes. Well, okay, he makes Tara sad but really that’s by far in a way not the worst thing possible. Gale’s ascension is also epilogue-exclusive, so a lot of it just ends up behind the scenes. Mind you, I’m not calling Gale’s storyline bad, I just think it could’ve been done a bit differently and a bit better.

Okay, now we’ve found the exact thing we wanted: Astarion’s storyline. Here, the idea of evil I mentioned before is implemented almost perfectly. Astarion either ascends, gaining terrible power and becoming the ultimate vampire lord, but also basically turning into Cazador, the man he hated so much, or doesn’t, saving hundreds of people, who he doomed to this fate, and becoming a better person. It’s a great story, although I do wish Astarion had some cool Ascended Vampire powers in the epilogue. Nothing to say here, also it’s very good that Minthara approves of it, and DJ Shadowheart does too, even though she then disapproves.

Now, before we get to the storylines that I will criticize the most, let’s have a look at the Durge. When I did my first playthrough as Durge, I was actually surprised by the fact that you actually get cool things by following your Urge. The Slayer form is surprisingly useful, and it looks really cool, the buff for the end fight that you get by accepting Bhaal is also pretty good, and that ability to instantly kill someone with 100 hp or less is cool, even if it’s not that great. Much like Astarion’s story, Durge’s storyline follows that exact idea of making evil paths.

Finally, Shadowheart and Minthara, our two favorite elf girls. As Shadowheart’s personal storyline progresses, she either overcomes her Sharran upbringing, gaslighting and brainwashing and fully embraces her good and sweet nature, or doesn’t, allowing Shar to torture and repress her good nature even more. Much like Lae’zel, Shadowheart doesn’t have an evil ending, she has a bad ending, a very bad and sad one. And honestly, I would be content with that, but there are some things that are just wrong in my opinion. First of all, Shadowheart gets exactly nothing by becoming a DJ and a Chosen of Shar. Seriously, the DJ gear is balanced around late Act II, so it becomes obsolete by mid Act III, and Shadowheart gets nothing besides it. Have you seen some of the other Chosen we fight? Like, you know, Chosen of Myrkul who turns into a huge undead monstrosity? And a Chosen of Shar gets nothing. Every single neophyte in the monastery has a condition “Born into darkness”, which gives them vision in magical darkness and blindness immunity, but not the damn Chosen of Shar. Viconia, who Shar wants dead, has Nightbringer's Beloved condition, Radiant Retort and Sanctuary. Guess how many of these Shadowheart gets? That’s right, none.

“Hes, you just don’t understand, this a narrative point that is meant to showcase that the Lady of Loss doesn’t give anything, she only takes!” Yeah, yeah, now go re-read what I just said above. Shar does give power to her followers, she is so generous she lets them keep those even after supposedly betraying her, she just hates Shadowheart specifically. Ketheric, when he was a Chosen of Shar, was powerful enough to unleash the goddamn Shadow Curse, and Shadowheart gets nothing. After Shadowheart kills the Nightsong, Shar says something like “wield your pain as power”, and after she sacrifices her parents, Shar says that Shadowheart can now draw endless power from them, and then Shadowheart says she feels Shar’s power at her fingertips. And all that accounts to nothing. That’s a rip-off of the century, I want a damn refund. And it’s not like Shar lies, because it’s not acknowledged anywhere. And if that’s not enough, when Shadowheart kills Nightsong, Shar says something like “Ketheric has betrayed me, go execute him, let him see you in your full glory when his eyes close forever”. Guess how Ketheric reacts to his former mistress taking revenge on him? That’s right, he doesn’t. And neither does Shadowheart. Even if you speak to him as her.

Alright, now I sense that you are eager to hear my suggestions. But we’re not done yet. Even if Shar gave Shadowheart some more power, there is one more thing wrong with Shadowheart’s storyline. The romance scene after she executes her parents. Let me remind you if you don’t remember. Shadowheart says we need to perform an act of wickedness in Shar’s name, leads us as the player character to a forgotten statue of Selune, vandalizes it with Aylin’s blood and then has sex with us. What’s so important about that scene, you may ask. Everything will be my answer to you. That scene presents us a completely different version of Shadowheart, one that we don't see literally anywhere else in the game. This particular Shadowheart knows she’s evil (an act of wickedness can’t really be justified), loves it and gets off on it. Every single dialogue option in that scene shows that Shadowheart is in high spirits and radiates confidence and power. Now this is an evil path at its finest, this Shadowheart is Durge’s soulmate. And speaking about Durge, Shadowheart also disapproves of Durge accepting Bhaal, even though she basically did the exact thing with Shar. Shar even said she is Shadowheart’s mother. If anything, DJ Shadowheart should be the only companion to sincerely approve Durge accepting their evil daddy god.

Lastly, let’s talk about Minthara, our favorite drow lady. Minthara doesn’t really have a storyline, but she has a certain theme to her, that theme being freedom. As far as I see, Minthara is all about “no gods, no masters”. After being enslaved by the Absolute, she abandons Lolth and wants to never again be someone’s pawn. She also is evil, but pragmatically evil, she is ok with raiding the grove and killing Isobel, but she needs a reason for it. Minthara is a great character, and I love her. Unfortunately, she is inconsistent. Minthara should disapprove of Shadowheart killing her parents, because she is being manipulated and brainwashed by Shar, much like Minthara herself was by the cult of the Absolute. Right now Minthara just says that killing one’s parents is a step towards adulthood. Minthara should also 100% encourage Durge to abandon Bhaal. She suffered a lot at the hands of Orin, she knows Bhaalists are both insane and can’t defy Bhaal on anything. Minthara is fine with Durge being evil, she is not fine with them not being able to control themselves and with them being Bhaal’s pawn.

Congratulations, if you’ve read this far, you may finally learn what exactly am I suggesting. And yes, I know this will never actually be implemented, I am writing this mostly for myself.
1. Make Shar actually empower Shadowheart, both after she kills Nightsong and after she executes her parents. Permanent buffs, further upgrades to gear, immunity to deep Shadow Curse for the entire party, an ability to take control of shadow-consumed undead, the possibilities are limitless.
2. Regular DJ Shadowheart can stay exactly as she is right now, but make romanced DJ Shadowheart be actually evil. Change her approval around, toss some lines here and there, maybe kill some selunites along the way, you name it.
3. While we are at it, let’s think about Shar for a moment. According to a book we can find in the Gauntlet, Shar considers both light and life a mistake and wants the entire world to be devoid of them. And that absence of life is almost exactly what Bhaal and Myrkul want. So why don’t the Chosen of Shar and the Chosen of Bhaal ally with each other and rid the world of life with their newly acquired army of mindflayers? And in the end, when they are the last two living beings in the world, Shadowheart and Durge will kill each other on an altar, parting forever. Would that not be the perfect evil ending?
4. Now comes the fun part. Add the patron of the GOO warlock as a character in the game, let’s call it Ctulhu for simplicity. So, add a relatively difficult and easy-to-miss questline throughout the entire three acts which would also require some immoral actions, and then it would develop into an ending where Tav makes a deal with Chtulhu, gaining the power to control the Brain without becoming a mind flayer. Then, Tav dominates the Brain, but instead of ordering it to suicide Tav performs an extremely dangerous ritual, which allows them to absorb a part of the Brain’s power as it is ordered to die. In the end, the Brain is defeated, Tav saved Baldur’s Gate but is also now something close to a demigod, or whatever that is DnD, basically keeping and strengthening their illithid powers without having the tadpole. And, of course, the GOO warlock would have a much easier access to this questline and ending. Also, Minthara would be able to do this instead of Tav. Because why not, she says she can kill with a whisper, so why not make this true.


Okay, this is it, if you’ve read this far, congratulations. If you didn’t, I don’t really care, I wrote this mostly for myself.